I don't get why people think this about any form of writing in entertainment.
People act like plot is the most important thing in all of writing which to me, isn't true.
Theme comes first.
You can have the most well told plot and characters ever, but if it doesn't mean anything, then really, was it worth writing for a movie or tv show? Like this is why I don't rate most Marvel movies above a 6/10 because they don't have any meaningful themes.
Like, there is a danger to writing themes, for example if you try and force your political agenda into your movie/tv show, but this can easily be avoided if you really think through it.
Then characters.
I understand that characters can be hard to write, but good characters drive the plot for the most part, not let the plot drive them. It's amazing how many movies fail to do this. For example, main character has normal life, then some event makes him/her discover a fantasy world or a secret underground organization, etc etc. Then he/she makes decision to fight for some outward world change. Like this has been done to death.
Why can't we have it like, main character is bored of life and wants to change something, he/she takes matters into their own hands, causing other characters to react and either become allies or obstacles for that need to change. And that's just a very basic example. There is a LOT more to writing characters which I'm sure we all know.
And then plot which I kind of already touched on.
Now a days, everyone expects the plot to be wrapped up in a cute neat bow or the whole thing sucks. I disagree. Yeah, or course it's great when everything turns out like that, but it shouldn't be a necessity. It's one thing if some of the smaller aspects of a movie or tv show just aren't wrapped up, and yeah, you want to wrap up character arcs and the themes well, but the plot is just a device used by the characters and themes (at least it should be. lol). And like, when the small things don't make sense, everyone nitpicks the movie/tv show and claim it all adds up to being bad. Come on guys, does that really matter as much?
People complain about tons of movies/tv shows feeling samey and I feel that's because they prioritize plot over anything else. There's only so many plots you can do with weak characters.
Does anyone else actually agree with stuff like this? I feel like I'm one of the few in a vast sea. lol
Listen, I'm not telling you guys you can't enjoy stuff. Like what you like and form your own opinions regardless of how much I try to sound subjective/objective about this. This is just stuff I've noticed that I don't get about other people and writing that I'm trying to understand.
And I haven't even discussed stuff like comics and video games. I guess comics could mostly fall under this stuff, but video games are just a different thing that I'm not going to go into here.
Theme comes first.
You can have the most well told plot and characters ever, but if it doesn't mean anything, then really, was it worth writing for a movie or tv show? Like this is why I don't rate most Marvel movies above a 6/10 because they don't have any meaningful themes.
Like, there is a danger to writing themes, for example if you try and force your political agenda into your movie/tv show, but this can easily be avoided if you really think through it.
Then characters.
I understand that characters can be hard to write, but good characters drive the plot for the most part, not let the plot drive them. It's amazing how many movies fail to do this. For example, main character has normal life, then some event makes him/her discover a fantasy world or a secret underground organization, etc etc. Then he/she makes decision to fight for some outward world change. Like this has been done to death.
Why can't we have it like, main character is bored of life and wants to change something, he/she takes matters into their own hands, causing other characters to react and either become allies or obstacles for that need to change. And that's just a very basic example. There is a LOT more to writing characters which I'm sure we all know.
And then plot which I kind of already touched on.
Now a days, everyone expects the plot to be wrapped up in a cute neat bow or the whole thing sucks. I disagree. Yeah, or course it's great when everything turns out like that, but it shouldn't be a necessity. It's one thing if some of the smaller aspects of a movie or tv show just aren't wrapped up, and yeah, you want to wrap up character arcs and the themes well, but the plot is just a device used by the characters and themes (at least it should be. lol). And like, when the small things don't make sense, everyone nitpicks the movie/tv show and claim it all adds up to being bad. Come on guys, does that really matter as much?
People complain about tons of movies/tv shows feeling samey and I feel that's because they prioritize plot over anything else. There's only so many plots you can do with weak characters.
Does anyone else actually agree with stuff like this? I feel like I'm one of the few in a vast sea. lol
Listen, I'm not telling you guys you can't enjoy stuff. Like what you like and form your own opinions regardless of how much I try to sound subjective/objective about this. This is just stuff I've noticed that I don't get about other people and writing that I'm trying to understand.
And I haven't even discussed stuff like comics and video games. I guess comics could mostly fall under this stuff, but video games are just a different thing that I'm not going to go into here.
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As I see it, the problem is with plot vs. formula. In this case, the formula is the story structure. Look at the old Star Trek original series. That show used the old Playhouse 90 stage play structure that built up the drama as it took you through the plot. Then it would leave you with a moment of relaxation and maybe a laugh. ( An episode could end with Spock saying "I see no reason to stand here being insulted." or Scotty saying "I beamed them to their engine room, where they'd be hardly a Tribble at all.") However. There were times when they broke with the formula to let tension of the story drive the structure. (Kirk saying "Let's get the hell out of here." at the end of City On The Edge Of Forever.) I believed that was a big part of why the original Star Trek was successful - they focused on telling the story, not on sticking to the formula.
Today we are in the era when drama - pure storytelling - is confined to the Art-Film genre and the action films are expected to drive the boxoffice. As the name implies, the action is the name of the game and the formula features the action. The plot has to be structured to fit the formula which means you have the story come to a halt to watch superheros destroy a city with their grudge match. Of the few Marvel movies I've seen, the only two I can say that I really like are the first Guardians Of The Galaxy, and the first Captain America. And of those two, in my opinion, Captain America is the better of the two because it follows a more traditional story structure.
In my opinion, the industry needs to get back to telling us good stories and focus less on showing the new ways they've come up with to show us pretty things exploding.
I agree and disagree.
I do think there's a tendency to get fixated on plot and over-emphasis that to the point you can only pick apart holes or weaknesses in the narrative mechanics of a story and miss the forest for the trees. It's like people who whine about the convoluted plotting in Chandler novels, which is reflected in the film adaptations of his works (as well as the films he wrote for). A neat plot arc is not why you read Chandler, whose books are less concerned w/what typically matters in mystery. You enjoy those books/movies for the characters, themes, style, and atmosphere.
I disagree because plot is ultimately just the sequence of events in a story. It absolutely matters, it's just not the be-all end-all of storytelling. There are plenty of great films that de-emphasize plotting or have a kind of plotting that isn't going to appeal to those who like a clear, direct 5-act structure.
What you're talking about is more a tendency w/Hollywood filmmaking in the last decade, but if you were to look within the last decade of TV, particularly cable and streaming, you'd get a very different picture. Lots more emphasis on character and looser plotting.
I'm not saying plot isn't important, I just think it's the least important of the three. They're all important, but many people, fans and critics, like to emphasize plot like it's everything in a story and all that matters. Like you said, "It absolutely matters, it's just not the be-all end-all of storytelling"
tbh, I don't watch a lot of live action TV so I miss a lot of good stuff probably. lol
tbh, I don't watch a lot of live action TV so I miss a lot of good stuff probably. lol
I think we mostly agree, I just wouldn't rank it as least important because I think with certain types of storytelling, plot becomes much more important. Learning to analyze plots made me a more engaged viewer, personally, regardless of whether it's most/least important.
Arguably something like Bojack Horseman draws a lot more from serial dramas in terms of attitude toward plot structure and storytelling, even though it's generally more of an animated comedy series. Juxtaposing disparate elements is kind its thing. But yeah, you could go back further than last decade, the Golden Age of TV is often cited as beginning with The Sopranos.
I can relate to both the points you've made, and the points WanderingWolf09 made below. For me, the characters are the driving aspect, and plot and theme sort of score even in terms of priority. I've been developing a project for a couple of years now, and with the plot's most bare-bones form jotted down, the heaviest part of my early attentions went into the development of the characters and their backgrounds and motivations. From there, and keeping in mind the basic structure of the plot, the themes that seemed suitable to develop sort of manifested as it went along. There's still a ways to go with the characters and the themes, but it's all looking far more coherent now.
But to summarize, I view theme and plot as complimentary elements to a story. Each is equally lacking without the other.
That's an interesting way of viewing it. I know everyone has their preferences of these three aspects I mentioned, but I don't see people prioritize character the most very often.
Well, from a viewer/reader's perspective, the characters are what I get attached to first, and from a writer's perspective, developing characters is very much a worthy and exciting challenge. 
You make some good points but bottom line if your story is ass then my interest isn't going to stay with it long.
100% agree.
Plot is nevertheless a key ingredient just as theme is necessary to provide direction and cohesion for the experience. A show solely focused on theme might be fine for short duration shows, but for longer, movie length or long narrative duration, it can stagnate badly without some kind of compelling story or plot to draw the viewer in.
If something comes across as "samey" or bland, that's not a fault of implementing plot but simply just bad, lazy writing in general. These tend to be referred to as 'cliches', and professional writers need to avoid them as much as reasonably possible or utilize these tropes in a clever way that evolves on pre-established concepts to create something fresh and new.
A lot of writers these days are sadly rather incompetent as they tend to avoid the hard work that entails quality writing and instead go for the low hanging fruit of myopic commercial appeal, chasing trends on what people presently like instead of inventing new trends entirely.
I'm not saying plot isn't important, because it is. I'm just saying between these three, I think it's the least important or whats important. I'm more willing to forgive a thing that has a few holes if it means I get a satifying experience from the other two things.
European films might be more to your liking. 
The ones I've seen focus more on themes than on plots.
As for American films, they are all "samey" because they follow the same plot formula.
Intro normal character, problem presents itself, character fails, problem escalates, solved! Oh, and romance.
The ones I've seen focus more on themes than on plots. As for American films, they are all "samey" because they follow the same plot formula.
Intro normal character, problem presents itself, character fails, problem escalates, solved! Oh, and romance. Interesting.
Maybe I'll check out some european films. lol
Maybe I'll check out some european films. lol
Eh, disagree. When it comes to writing for any form of medium, the story/premise is the first thing that is worked on before the themes/moral that the story is trying to convey.
I mean take for example Batman v. Superman, it has strong themes related to the concept of what defines a man, inherit goodness, the divide between god and man and so forth. And yet those themes are bogged down by the poorly structured and questionable writting decision of its story.
Honestly whats the point of having a theme if I can’t buy into the story it presented.
I mean take for example Batman v. Superman, it has strong themes related to the concept of what defines a man, inherit goodness, the divide between god and man and so forth. And yet those themes are bogged down by the poorly structured and questionable writting decision of its story.
Honestly whats the point of having a theme if I can’t buy into the story it presented.
Because if I go to the theater or watch a show and it has no meaningful theme, sure whatever, I can shut my mind off, but 9/10 times I feel like I wasted my time by the end of it.
I'm not really going to the theater to learn or be preached to, but there's entertainment that makes me feel and think about things differently, and then there's shit like the transformers and twilight movies that are just bottom of the barrel mind numbing. I mean, not all movies and tv shows are near those extremes, but most of them could really be in the middle of those two.
I guess what I'm getting at is why so much mediocre entertainment is so well liked. Tbh, I'm more into anime than movies and regular tv, and even that is getting pretty stale because there's just so many bad anime's now and even some of the stuff I used to like isn't that appealing anymore.
And another thing, while I think themes are the most important, I should specify that I like ones that are good. Nihilistic about life crap (and things relating to stuff like this) doesn't make me enjoy a film/tv show. lol
I'm not really going to the theater to learn or be preached to, but there's entertainment that makes me feel and think about things differently, and then there's shit like the transformers and twilight movies that are just bottom of the barrel mind numbing. I mean, not all movies and tv shows are near those extremes, but most of them could really be in the middle of those two.
I guess what I'm getting at is why so much mediocre entertainment is so well liked. Tbh, I'm more into anime than movies and regular tv, and even that is getting pretty stale because there's just so many bad anime's now and even some of the stuff I used to like isn't that appealing anymore.
And another thing, while I think themes are the most important, I should specify that I like ones that are good. Nihilistic about life crap (and things relating to stuff like this) doesn't make me enjoy a film/tv show. lol