I personally feel that it's completely natural to want, perhaps even need, mental "excursions". It's completely up to the individual user as to how they go about it. If they feel that the mental benifits are worth the possible mental and physical side effects, I say let em do it. If it's not their scene, cool, they won't do it anyway.
For ancient people that made use of entheogen plants, reality was only what you perceived, so what we today call 'drug-induced hallucinations' were a reality for them. I believe that when you are ready, the experience comes to you and becomes meaningful, for instance, I had been smoking marijuana for erh...quite a while then, and one day, out of nowhere, I felt something which is perhaps too personal to really get into.
A person in this thread said that it was sad that people had to use hallucinogens to have a meaningful experience. I have to admit that I only partially agree, for me, entheogens are something sacred, and taking them all the time is somewhat an insult "to the plant" (to something sacred). I have had highly spiritual experiences (therefore meaningful) with Salvia Divinorum that changed me, but I did not feel the need to repeat the experience, I was already changed. People who would take drugs all the time wouldn't change, because they'd use it was a crutch where they wouldn't need any.
I like a good buzz as much as the next person, but, when a news service starts running stories about halucinagenic substances providing spiritual experiences I have to question whether the use of that term isn't one that might be better put aside entirely. It strikes chords of Pavlov with me, provide a stimuli and invoke instant spiritualism. Sure it mimics The doors of perception theme nicely, but, that wasn't sustainable for many people past the 60's and may have caused many people to question wether spiritualism itself as a concept wasn't just another illusion entirely. Its worked for some, but, seems to end up being ammunition for their detractors.
"Instead of going there every once in a while, I choose to work on being there all the time, without the aid of mother nature, or problems from the authorities. I was thinking about things and I came up with this example: I was in India for six weeks engaged in intense spiritual practices, meditation, chanting, study of scripture and yoga. The result of my practice was about the same of smoking a jay of the best Cali weed, the difference being that the high I got from smoking only lasted a few hours and I found myself right back where I started from -- with a little added frustration because that feeling was gone. The high I get from spiritual practices lifts my consciousness up and gives me the knowledge and experience to keep it up there."
"wether spiritualism itself as a concept wasn't just another illusion entirely"
To someone that has experienced certain things trough entheogens, things are only limitless perception, some the whole "illusion" thing is not appliable for them, or, put a bit more precisely, they don't believe in it or find it irrelevant.
"Its worked for some, but, seems to end up being ammunition for their detractors."
Mainly because the experience is so personal, it can't really be talked about. You could describe it, but in the end, it remains all to you.
While I won't disagree with you on most of it, my point was that I don't believe its a true path to spiritualism for most people that might try it. I believe that many people in the psychedellic 60's tried this path, many of them may have felt the spiritual connection, but, not many of them sustained their experience for life. For those, they later questioned any real gain afforded themselves by their experience and thus may have rejected entirely any relevance to themselves or others. I believe that many of those individuals became jaded and an impediment to others seeking.
You're right, most of them didn't sustain their experience and then called that a mistake. A lot of people in the 60's just tried it to be cool and in with the gang, and not out of a desire for personal evolution.
I don't think that there's an exact key, it's just a matter of being ready and doing the right thing. It might seem non-sense for others, but I certainly feel that it's not everyone that's fit for everything. I'm right for Salvia, or perhaps Salvia is right for me, whichever, I may not get anything from something else. I've had a meaningful experience with Marijuana only once, all it gave me afterward was headaches. And I don't want to sound like a government sellout, but yes, we should do what is legal as much as we can, it's stupid to just run for trouble. For instance, Salvia is legal in Canada, but not in the US. The big key in this matter is especially not to do anything stupid, which I strongly advice to everyone.
I have to admit that most people who try something just because their friends do or told him to is not very likely to get something out of it, but life has taught me that you just never know...
Well, you know shamen and stuff in ancient (and some modern-day cultures that aren't in the big industrialized world) tribes and stuff used to get high for their big spiritual stuff. And you know the oracle at Delphi? She was high on some vapors coming up from the floor of her cave...
Still doesn't make it good for your brain.
Oh! And chocolate's got a drug in it too... makes your brain release endorphins (I think).
Still wouldn't wanna eat a toxic fungus myself. That whole "euphoric" feeling the people were talking about might have been the toxin's special way of killing you. I never understood the train of thought that goes: this is toxic... lets eat it and get high!
Sibyl sat on a tripod over a crevace in the floor, which led down to a hot spring. There would have been a lot of steam, and maybe mineral salts, but I doubt that would have been enough to induce the trance-like states the delphinian oracles are credited with. Other than that, she would eat laurel leaves. I have read that the ancient romans used to eat laurel leaves as part of tradtional cuisine; toxicity would depend on the species of laurel I guess.
Sibyl was suppossed to have been chosen by Apollo, and it is from him that the Sibyline visions are supposed to originate. *shrug*
Well toxic is a funny thing, I mean, water can be toxic if you drink enough of it. Your body creates its own toxic substances anyways. And people ate this sort of thing before they even knew what toxins were, just because the experience was so intense and amazing. Me, I don't know for sure whether or not it's good for your brain, but I KNOW it's good for your soul.
If by soul you mean your personality, the thing that makes you you, your perceptions, creativity, thoughts et cetera... by saying "I don't know for sure whether or not it's good for your brain" that makes the rest of your sentence an oxymoron. Your brain is where your soul is at.
If you mean some spiritual religious type of soul... well I don't see how shrooms will help that. All Gods that I know do not recommend pyschedelic drugs to help worship them.
Right then, I'll clarify. Is it good for you physically in the way that a salmon steak and a spinach salad is? No. Does it damage the brain physically? I don't know and there is insufficient research on this to say definitevely. Is it good for you mentally, is it a beneficial influence on your personality and your consciousness? Does it improve your outlook on life? In a majority of cases, yes.
The argument that "anything can be toxic" isn't really a good one for making people think something is safe because it ignores the level of toxicity. Water is only toxic when consumed at quantities more than 10 liters per day. Whereas other things, like say...cyanide...are toxic in amounts less than a teaspoon.
Not critiquing your drug habits here, because while I personally oppose them because of the dangers...I say to each his own. People are free to do what they want to their own bodies.
Aye, but if you consume more than about 10 liters per day you risk water intoxication. Sodium levels drop, the body attempts to correct the imbalance, the brain's water balance is upset, and seizures are typically the result.
Water is wonderful, but like everything else, even it needs to be consumed in moderation.
Thats why they invented Gaterade. Anyways, one cannot consume that amount of water under normal conditions. They would have to be severely dehydrated as a result of illness or excessive heat. As such, its not actually the water that will harm the person, but rather the other chemicals in the body which might be missing or built up to high levels.
I'm sure drinking too much Gatorade has it's problems as well. Isn't that stuff packed with sugar?
I don't think it's impossible for someone to consume that amount of water under normal conditions, I think it's just unlikely that they'll do it. And actually, no it's not necessarily the other chemicals due to other problems. Regardless of what else is going on in the body, if more than 10 liters are consumed, it will screw up the brain water levels and cause seizures.
anyways i dont agree about the water. Im sure if they mix in the right minirals it will be fine. After all, water takes a certain amount of time to go through your system, you cant just keep drinking it and not get full. This process is only bupassed when the body is under stress from hear or whatever.
You can't disagree with proven scientific or medical fact. Life doesn't really work that way. That's like saying, "I disagree with the idea that an object will fall if I drop it out of a window," or saying "I disagree that stabbing myself with a knife will break my skin and cause me to bleed."
It's not my opinion about water that I'm sharing here, it's knowledge taken from qualified medical sources.
Not actually a result of "lack of nutrients." Dilluting the blood does not destroy nutrients in your body. It simply causes your sodium vs. water levels to be unbalanced. The body needs to maintain a certain sodium/water balance to keep things running properly by facilitating the absorption of water into cells, so it needs to correct any imbalances. Water ends up rushing into brain cells which causes seizures.
I feel more certain of my place in the universe and am generally happier and more satisfied with my life since I ate some mushrooms a few years back, though I wasn't exactly depressed. I think it would be a better treatment than all the wierd synthetic drugs they give people now...certainly mushrooms do not have the hideous side effects of many drugs used to treat depression.
It was three and some years ago, but I remember it real clear...first of all, light was brighter, and I noticed things that otherwise I would just glance past, like the veins on leaves or the dust floating in a beam of light, and it all seemed to hold incredible spiritual significance, it all seemed to imply some deeper meaning. This sort of feeling intensified...while objects remained distinct, it was like I knew instinctively that they were all in fact part of some greater whole, and all interconnected. I totally lost sense of time. I was sitting on a bench beside a lake with some people, looking out across the lake, but I was seeing things like the pyramids being built, futuristic cities, other solar systems...it was kinda like that movie where there's a kid in a boat with a mosquito on his arm, and it zooms in to all of his cells in his arm, and then out past the whole galaxy, and then back in again, only also back and forward in time, and all at once. I felt like my head would explode.
Then I must have passed some sort of peak, because all those stimuli slowly calmed down and let me relax, it felt kind of like I was landing in a parachute, and I was left feeling like I'd gone through a lifetime of experiences in a few hours. It was amazing, I have to agree with these people in the study, the only things that compare were the last time I saw my grandparents alive, the only time I left North America, and my highschool graduation. It was intense.
totally different, psycodelics cannot be compared to other drugs, well they can but they are far different. Weed stills your mind to a point, its a depressent, like alcohol, speed, extacy, cocaine etc are stimulents, and do as they say. Mushrooms, mesciline and LSD are far more powerful, they open new ways of thinking far and above that of other drugs. Plus you get powerfull visulals which other drugs don't provide to the same extent. Psycodelics can offer people alot, but should be teated with utmost care, if your thinking of tring them, reasurch them first (as you should any drug) and make sure you are in a happy frame of mind, and have been for a period of time, like all week. Psycodelics tap into your subconsious, I've seen people freak out badly becuase they where not mentally ready.
Iv'e never been a hardcore drug user. I did a bit of pot many years ago, thats about it. I rember becoming extremely paranoid (at one point I convinced myself there was a monster in the bushes in my backyard.).
I don't think I would ever try mushrooms. Definatly not without some research.
But anyway, was just curious as to the difference. Thanks for your info
No problem. I would recoment a psycodelic experinence to any mentally stable person to have once in their life. They truely can offer alot, but be safe!
After all, you can't knock what you don't know, thats what pisses me off the most about hardcore anti drug people. They have no experience about that they talk about and condem.
Drugs are responsible in keeping our sanity. We have medical drugs that help us deal with pain, which is merely an interpretation of a stimulus in our brain. We have drugs that make us less anxious in social situations such as alcohol. We have drugs that keep us more alert and attentive such as caffeine and nicotine. We have more medical drugs that help treat people who suffer with severe depression, hallucinations, mania, that are too difficult or impossible to treat with therapy--schizophrenia being impossible.
You'll find it extremely hard to find an individual who doesn't use some sort of drug. I think it's unfair to judge people because they need some external help with their situation. People go to their family and friends for help dealing with reality instead of turning inwards, and this is normal. However, those people are external influences. Drugs are also external influences, but are viewed as something immoral or it's viewed as the easy, lazy way out. I hope that someday psilocybin and LSD are used in mental health treatment because they're much safer than the drugs already out there to help them if administered properly. Lithium is often used in those who have bipolar, and regular blood work must be taken in order to prevent lithium toxicity. Antipsychotics, which are used to treat people with obsessive-compulsive disorder, bipolar, schizophrenia, et cetera, can cause massive weight gain or weight loss, high cholesterol, heart disease, cataracts, lethargy, and such. One must balance the positives with the negatives when taking these drugs. I, however, decided the negatives were far too severe and quit medicine four years after taking them.
Life is far harder and more stressful because of my decision, but I dropped 55 pounds and gained motivation. I have a really hard time dealing with reality because of my mental health issues, and it makes real life much harder when you have to lie about why you act in certain ways to avoid social discomfort and alienation from those who simply do not understand. The more I research mushrooms, the more I want to try them for therapeutic reasons. The problem is set and setting as mentioned by Timothy Leary. I'd feel much more comfortable if I was adminstered the drug during therapy, but because the legality of the drug and the incident with Timothy Leary post-poned research for many decades, I don't have the option as I should at this point in time. People rather me suffer because they're deadset against drugs. There must be something wrong with me if I have to use them to deal with reality. Well, no shit, right? If I need help dealing with reality and there is a way, then I'm going to take it even if it isn't the tough, manly way to do so. I don't live in a comfortable reality. I'm sick of being paranoid; I'm sick of having unpredictable emotions; I'm sick of the exaggerated stress; I'm sick of having to lie to people; I'm sick of the downswings causing the unstoppable feeling of alienation and isolation. Maybe you lucked out, but the cards I've been dealt with weren't so fair and it's impossible to understand unless you had the proper training or the actual life experience--perhaps with yourself or with a loved one.
The purpose of this study was for use in therapy like what the studies conducted back in the 60's. As for taking them for fun, if they're trying to deal with reality by taking the drug, then it's more for therapy than entertainment, right? Also, what is so wrong with using drugs for fun? Is it any worse than eating for pleasure or playing video games? What about discussing topics such as things on a message board? None of those things result to anything productive, but they entertain us and make life more interesting while we're still alive. In the end, there really is no kind of fun that can't be looked to another as "sad" or "pathetic". The important thing is moderation and control. If you maintain those two qualities, drugs, video games, food, sports, et cetera aren't sad at all.