feminism isnt needed in the western world


zippenips's avatar
i invite anyone to try to change my mind on this topic, and here is my reasoning for being on this stance. feminism is not needed in the western world because there are no major problems for women in the western world. 
reason #1- according to payscale.com, men only earn 1% to 4% more than women, most likely due to men oftentimes working more hours than women, and doing more dangerous jobs like construction work, which more often than not, women will avoid at their own volition.
reason #2- manspreading is not a problem. men are forced to sit with their legs open due to factors like pelvic sexual dimorphism, the fact that it would hurt to crush your balls in between your legs, and men have a hard time with putting a conscious effort into keeping their legs closed at all times while sitting in public.
reason #3- feminism is needed more in third world countries like saudi arabia, etc. countries where islam is prevalent is where feminism is needed the most, because sharia law is a real force against women's freedom and liberation. do you think that muslim women have a choice to wear the burka or the hijab? women are literally chained to the inside of their own homes in muslim countries, and are brutally raped and abused every day as well, yet, western feminists only complain about mundane things like air conditioning and "toxic masculinity". you need to focus your efforts to where real female oppression is happening, and stop complaining about first world issues. go ahead and call me a misogynist all you want, but when you finally peer out of your echo chamber and see the real world, don't say i was wrong. all of the reasons that i gave you are just examples of my reasons why feminism is not needed in the western world. now go ahead and challenge my beliefs and try to prove me wrong. 
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BlueW's avatar
#1 The pay gap varies depending on how and where you're measuring, with some statistics showing 19% difference between genders and others showing just 5%, while others still show that women under 30 outperform men. It's difficult to discern how much of it is actual discrimination and how much of it instead is due to life choices such as raising a family. Likewise, women are still underrepresented in U.S. politics and the same previous question applies. That being said, there are areas where women over-perform as well -- there is a 55:45 ratio between women and men in college, a 3:1 ratio of male-to-female suicides, over 70% of all homeless are men, and prison sentences are generally harsher on men.

Ultimately, I wouldn't argue that feminism isn't needed, but I would argue that the disparities are more subtle and that there are also imbalances in the other direction as well. Gender equality means that each gender's problems are addressed, therefore I have no problem with either feminism or... er, "masculism" when each are applied in the right setting.

#2 Manspreading is a fake issue, and any genuine feminist would never cite this as a real problem. Those who do are just looking for attention.

#3 Ultimately I do agree that discrimination against women is a much more serious problem in the middle east, and most of it is deeply systemic. Dismantling sharia law would help to not only lift women's rights, but also gays', athiests' rights and those of other religions. How exactly we get to that point, though, is totally beyond me.
HermanSlug's avatar
All people are not treated as true equals by all other people. True feminism has the same goals as egalitarianism, for everyone to be respected and viewed as just another person. How you treat or respect someone should not be influenced by someone's colour, gender, sexuality etc. It may be so ingrained in our culture and subconscious but that is what needs to change, slowly. Sure, manspreading is not an issue. A) The vocal minority is what you are hearing. Radical feminists are not the majority of feminists, they are the small extremist group of this particular political ideal. B) We should hear every person out, regardless of how stupid we think that opinion is or how repulsive we think it is. Have actual discussions and respect them as a person enough to hear them out and get your side across, this goes both ways. On manspreading - it's not something that is not allowed to anyone, women can and do sit like that, though the culture on it being "unladylike" etc is what needs to change. Men don't need to close their legs, they(and women, too) need to not care or think less of others if they don't. 
WoodrowWoodThough's avatar
I'm certain manspreading is the reason women turn to feminism. Because they wind up with all the money anyway in the end.
BinocularSloth's avatar
I don't think the question is whether it is needed or not. Standing for your rights, being women rights or any other kind of rights, means elaborating ideas and challenging the society's view.

The problem is not having different salaries, but considering it is normal to pay an individual less based on their identity and not their skills.
The problem is not to sit with your legs open, but having an inappropriate behaviour toward another person in a certain context.
Of course there are countries where the situation is worst regarding women's right. But those rights people have been fighting for can easily be revoked.

As of saying men or women are having it worst, that's a completely subjective matter. Because men and women don't have the same social roles, there are different questions for them, different pressure, different feelings.
I would say that opposing men versus women is a mistake, in my opinion, as these issues are adressed to everyone. 
zippenips's avatar
i really need to make my points clear and add even more reasons. 
BinocularSloth's avatar
GameTrek's avatar
1. Men get paid way more because men are the ones making families, houses, and home. Women in most cases do not start a family. Two men in a relationship is like having one small millionaire living together.

2. Manspreading was an idea and yes you could get fine. Usually this means when your on a train car to just be mindful for the next person> There is nothing wrong with spreading your legs as it is a health need. But a crowded train car in something to think about.

3. People come to USA to involk feminism. There is nothing wrong with feminism it is just how the topic is perceived. You want to live a certain way then learn a language and skill and move to that location

Checkout this funny post about feminism.

www.fstdt.com/QuoteComment.asp…
zippenips's avatar
men are often times more willing to take more dangerous jobs than women, because the more dangerous jobs pay more. sure, some women do take these jobs, but more often than not, women take the more cushy jobs like chef, or maid, or telemarketer, or whatever jobs women like to take, which are nothing compared to construction work, which can either get you killed, paralyzed, or make you lose a body part due to all of this dangerous equipment. when it comes to jobs, more danger means more dough. 
GameTrek's avatar
The problem when we have this conversation nobody is taking for granted the amount of people who went to college and then went into their field.

Also in most cases this is not really considering jobs you are trained, certified, or considered a professional.
zippenips's avatar
most women often choose the least paying jobs, because who wants to lose body parts, and yet they think that they are entitled to get the same pay as those with more dangerous jobs. it all comes down to the choices that both sexes make. have a cushy job and get paid less, or have a job that risks life and limb, but get paid more because you actually put your life on the line.
GameTrek's avatar
Look that is not %100 true.
zippenips's avatar
did i say all women? because if i said all women, then i would be wrong.
QueenCold's avatar
#1: women often do not really have a choice. Even economic systems and business models that are considered "progressive" are often designed around the idea of women being part time workers and the primary caregivers of children. When systems are designed to favor this particular model, women who would otherwise work full time or return to work shortly after giving birth might need to "decide" against doing so in the best interest of the family unit, whether it's because working full time will result in a net loss due to increased income tax (a common problem in European nations) or because fathers get no time off for their newborn child at all, which results in the mother missing out on experience and opportunities (paternity leave is practically non-existent).
Another thing that happens a lot, though very illegal, is that young women are passed over for promotions because they are expected to take off more time for their families even when they don't need to. This is despite men and women reporting no difference in their willingness to work after starting a family. This common misconception is the reason employers can't ask for your maiden name or marital status anymore; it leads to discrimination.

#2: manspreading is a non-issue and nine times out of ten it's a joke at the expense of a specific brand of rude person (usually a guy) who sprawls out to a completely ludicrous extent.

#3: Just because some places are worse doesn't mean the West no longer has issues that need to be addressed. Harassment, victim blaming, girls getting their education interrupted because their collar bone is showing, the alarming frequency of girls aged 9-13 getting treated in a highly sexualized manner by adult men (to which the girls are simply taught to expect this), the constant assertions that adult women are mentally adolescent in their search for attention, the way women are considered aggressive and unsuitable for leadership positions when they display the qualities that get men these positions, the way people perceive women to have more of a presence than they really do (this even affects crowd scenes in movies), the way men are constantly excused from learning to understand women better even though women are often subtle in an attempt not to be hurt, the way women's medical symptoms are still often dismissed or treated as unusual in clinics and hospitals, resulting in women dying from infections and heart attacks (women are seven times more likely to be discharged in the middle of a heart attack than men)... these are just some of the problems that pervade Western society.

"Toxic masculinity" refers to behavior that is perpetrated under the guise of masculinity by machos who confuse masculinity with plain being a toxic person. Actual masculinity has nothing to do with needing to tear others down to elevate yourself. Masculinity is loyalty, fraternity and the power to carry others and protect them. The phrase "boys will be boys" should be used is to describe men innocently enjoying the small things in life and maybe being a tiny bit reckless in the process, not to describe them getting into senseless fights or bothering women.
Toxic masculinity is also the phenomenon that leads to men not being taught how to healthily express a full range of emotions, because that's considered feminine. So not only is this a feminist issue, it's a public health issue. Men get depressed and commit suicide because of this nonsense.

Saying that feminism isn't needed is a bold claim to make, especially if you lack any experience as a woman. If you really talk to the women in your life and listen to them, most of them will have stories of men who treated them horribly on account of their gender. Even if women didn't have these stories, men simply experience the world around them differently than women. Yet the experience of men gets pushed as the default experience that makes the most sense, and those who are different from this standard are labeled crazy and tasked with changing. Ask yourself why this is.

This brings me to the word "feminism" itself and why I still prefer it over using "egalitarianism" instead. Feminism is a subdivision of egalitarianism that still needs attention. Feminism exists to remind us that discrimination against feminine qualities and viewpoints is a very specific problem that needs specific answers, and to remind us that masculinity isn't the default. If we erase that part, all egalitarianism will continue to do is focus on bringing women up to men's standards. Until women are respected not only as people but as women as well, we need feminism.

If you made it all the way to the end of this post, congratulations! I know from the way your post is worded you're less looking for a discussion and more just venting your (likely loneliness-induced) frustration. I bet you've already typed up a storm, because people who read/listen to respond rather than understand don't take the time to take things in.
I'm also betting you're pretty defensive at this point, but I want to make one thing clear: I didn't really type all that stuff for you. I know there's no actual conversation to be had with you. I'm doing this in the hope that someone with an open mind comes along and learns something.
These will be my only words directed at you specifically: maybe girls just don't like you because you're unpleasant.
Not sorry, someone had to call you out. Don't worry, you sound young so you can still fix this.
zippenips's avatar
none of these issues need a form of activism that is focused on only one problem, like feminism. all of these problems can be, have been, and still is applied to men as well, which calls for a more egalitarian approach. saying that women are the only ones that are suffering is refusing to look at the whole picture. we don't need feminism. we need egalitarianism
QueenCold's avatar
You: "saying that women are the only ones that are suffering is refusing to look at the whole picture"
Me, literally in the post you replied to: "Men get depressed and commit suicide because of this nonsense."

I'll commend you for not trying to come up with a snarky comeback. The way you had phrased your original post and a bunch of your replies made it look like you weren't looking for an actual discussion. Glad we can talk.

You didn't really add anything to what I said, though. Of course issues like these don't exist in a vacuum. Complex issues never do. That doesn't change that a lack of respect towards feminine qualities and viewpoints plays a central role in many of the problems men and women face.
You also completely ignored what I said about egalitarianism. Egalitarianism is great. In fact, it's ideal and in an ideal world men's and women's perspectives would be weighed equally in creating an egalitarian society. Unfortunately this isn't the world we live in, which is why feminism needed to be a subdivision of egalitarianism in the first place. The problem with taking feminism out of egalitarianism right now is three things:

1. The male experience is still considered the default, most logical experience. Men and women are often different in their emotional reactions to the world around them and until both ways of reacting are considered equally valid, which they aren't now, the egalitarian movement will fail to achieve its objective and instead of creating a fair and just society it will just replace an old set of unreasonable expectations with a new set.

2. When women do act more like men, this is perceived as a negative thing. There are various studies out there that show that men and women are judged differently even when they act the exact same way. Women who used the same script as men in job interviews were judged as less competent. Angry women were more often considered "out of control" than angry men, despite having the same lines.

3. Women still have to work harder to prove themselves, so saying feminism no longer needs to be a focus within the egalitarian movement is simply untrue.
The Harvard Business review did a study with sensors as recently as 2017 and observed that while men and women behaved identically in the office, they weren't promoted at nearly the same rate. The Cambridge University Press released a study last year that revealed that students rate male teachers higher than female teachers despite teaching identical courses. Yale University even published a study this year that showed people take girls' pain less seriously than boys', based on the observation of identical reactions to a finger-stick. While all participants watched an identical video of an identical child exhibiting identical pain-display behaviors, the group who knew the child as "Samuel" said he was in more pain than the group who knew her as "Samantha."

What I said about men being hurt is very true. Men are still often taught that they can't be emotional. The underlying bias is that being emotional makes you feminine, which is degrading, because being "like a woman" is degrading. The end result is still very harmful for men, because they often don't get a healthy outlet for their emotions.
Fathers are less likely to get custody over their children too, because they aren't the default caretakers in society's eyes.
When gender biases exist, when one gender is looked down on, everybody loses, because nobody is 100% feminine or 100% masculine. 
Feminism isn't about ignoring men's problems, it's about pointing out very specific problems that people just ignore when they don't have a name of their own.
Raskolnikow110's avatar
A man who moans about feminism is a pussy.
batrachomancy's avatar
A woman who moans about patriarchy is a dyke
LizzyChrome's avatar
Maybe not feminism, but certainly egalitarianism. Sexism against men and women both still exist in the Western world. It's debatable who has it worse at the moment, but neither one is good. 
Washusama's avatar
I would much rather be an egalitarian.

Egalitarianism advocates that all groups (race, religion, gender, etc...) are worthy of the same basic level of human dignity and the same rights.
(It is not about insisting that there are no differences between groups when this is clearly not true, it just states that these differences do not make any groups inferior and/or other groups superior) 

While feminism is exclusively concerned with women's issues with the rights of others who are outside of their ingroup being secondary at best and of interest only when their needs intersect with those of feminism.

Egalitarians, on the other hand, are totally committed to the idea of women's rights within a broader context of equal rights for all.

So in summary, All Egalitarians are feminists, but not all feminists are egalitarians. 
zippenips's avatar
im much rather a misanthrope, someone who hates everyone equally. 
Valsayre's avatar
Egalitarianism is retarded. 
Smithnikova's avatar
So how do you pitch that to the people who get the arbitrary short end of the stick from your ideal? 
Valsayre's avatar
I am not their advocate. If a government is to place the interests of a foreign body either before or equal to our own interests, it is made treasonous. Do not mistake the reality of the equality of the two sexes with the lie of universal equality.