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August 23, 2017
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Abortion Beliefs and Arguments

:iconcichantea:
CIChantea Featured By Owner Aug 23, 2017  Hobbyist Writer

     I would like to have a cool-headed, reasoned discussion about abortion. Before you write up a hasty, hot-tempered remark in the comments, please hear me out. If you engage in discussion with someone who holds a different or opposing position to yours, be respectful. Think carefully about your words before sharing them. If you'll lose your temper, don't respond, even if it was a reply to your comment.

     Now that we covered some guidelines, I have a specific prompt of sorts that I want you to respond to.

     I am abandoning my position and going into this issue empty-handed. I want you to:

     1. explain your position on abortion

     2. present your arguments for your beliefs

     3. give primary arguments against your position as well as your counterarguments

     and, for a challenge

     4. explain some of the underlying presuppositions or more basic beliefs that lead to your position and then follow them to their logical conclusion when applied to other moral/ethical issues or other areas of life.

     Your goal in sharing these four points is to convince me to hold your position.

     My part of this is both simple and quite difficult. I am going to examine every response, ask questions, and do my best to read with a completely open mind, willing to be convinced by whichever argument(s) are strongest/best supported. Then, after people either stop talking in this forum and it closes, or so many people have responded it's impossible for me to consider them all, I will write an article detailing the arguments I encountered and my conclusions. The article will most likely be posted on a blog I'm going to be a regular contributer for, though it hasn't actually started yet. I will share the link with everyone once it has been posted. For now though, I need your feedback!

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Devious Comments

:iconpsycubb:
Psycubb Featured By Owner Mar 16, 2018  Student Digital Artist
I'm not gonna stay here because i don't want to get railed up. I'm just gonna..  real quick

IT'S A DISGUSTING THING TO DO
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:iconrunicsummoner:
RunicSummoner Featured By Owner Mar 9, 2018
Short on time, so will expand if queried.

1. explain your position on abortion
You have the right to do so, and it should not be rendered illegal. My belief in how to go about it is that people should never intentionally go get themselves pregnant and then abort if that was the plan all along. Overall, I think people should absolutely be able to abort if
 - they were raped
 - they are too young and unable to properly handle children
 - they come to the decision that there is no real way to sustain their children and lack means to get them to a proper home
 - the mother wants to live, and there is a serious chance of the mother dying upon childbirth

2. present your arguments for your beliefs
 - While I would accept some degree of regulation, as abortion should be as huge of a decision as actually having a kid in the first place, I think more regulation makes it more difficult for people with legitimate reasons to do what they need to do.
 - You're a dick if you intentionally go around to get pregnant and abort each time.
 - Being raped absolutely does not mean you have to have a child. By that point, it's just another link in a series of true fuckups.
 - I don't believe teenagers should be having kids at all
 - If you made a legitimate mistake, you shouldn't be forced to put someone else through tons of unnecessary trouble because you fucked up
 - I think a mother takes precedence for survival over somebody who I do not quantify as being born yet, and that this is ultimately up to the mother
 - I think the mother holds the power in each case to make her own decisions

3. give primary arguments against your position as well as your counterarguments and, for a challenge
 - Someone else can present these for me, as I don't consider it my job >.> willing to reply to every point posed.

4. explain some of the underlying presuppositions or more basic beliefs that lead to your position and then follow them to their logical conclusion when applied to other moral/ethical issues or other areas of life.
 - I think people should generally be able to do as they want to do in life
 - I can morally detach myself and speak in terms of humanity as a whole while completely discarding the troubles of individuals, on a case by case basis
 - I take a detached view for unborn children, that is, I do not consider them born until they are separate from the mother. Until that time, the mother is the holder of the baby, and thus holder of basically all rights relative to this

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:iconplanckmass:
PlanckMass Featured By Owner Mar 7, 2018
On the idea that abortion is murder, I say not necessarily. Similarly, I don’t think the cutting off of the life support of someone pronounced brain dead is murder.

There are states here in the US that have prenatal homocide laws that apply upon conception. My issue with this is that I understand murder to be an act perpetrated against a person or persons. This would mean that personhood is a prerequisite for the entity being so acted upon. The aforementioned laws applying from conception onward, I take it that this would mean a zygote would be thought to posses personhood.

Now, I’m sure personhood is a hard concept to define, but I would insist that a necessary component of it is a sufficiently functioning brain. Granting that, the fact the the brain’s primary structures (fore-,mid- and hindbrain) don’t begin to form until around four fetal weeks into pregnancy suggests, at the least, that these laws should not be applicable during the germinal stage; two weeks after fertilization, minimum.

Furthermore, though the primary structures begin to develop during the embryonic stage, what are the neural correlates of consciousness and when do they form? What is consciousness and what is its relation to personhood? I don’t pretend to be able to answer questions like these, but I think they bear addressing if we’re to decide if embryonic or fetal stage abortions can be described as murder.

One counter I can think of to the claim that prenatal homocide can’t occur as early as the germinal stage is that, though a zygote is not a person, it is the first stage in the evetual development of something with personhood and, thus, terminating it is murder. To this I say that the presumption that a person will exist at some later developmental stage does not undo the fact that no such person exists earlier on.

One assumption I’m making is that a functioning brain is a necessary condition of personhood. I think many would concede this point, though there are some who might say that a soul is present from the moment of conception and that that’s sufficient for personhood to obtain. I suppose a second assumption I’m making is that souls are nonexistent and, as such, have no bearing on prenatal development.

I generally don’t discuss anything with the intention of convincing someone to adopt my position. I’m more interested in inviting others to challenge my position, so I apologize if this wasn’t written in the appropriate tone.
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:iconmahoushoujoicestar:
MahouShoujoIceStar Featured By Owner Edited Mar 5, 2018  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I am pro abortion and I am fine with abortion up until birth. I feel that there are too many people in this world. I also am okay with certain types of eugenics.


 But I understand that most people do not agree with me, and that's okay. Everyone has their own opinions.
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:iconplanckmass:
PlanckMass Featured By Owner Mar 7, 2018
Is your favorite movie The Purge?
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:iconbrianvds:
brianvds Featured By Owner Feb 28, 2018  Professional Traditional Artist
I am in the lucky position that being a man, and thus unable to get pregnant, I don't have to have any position on abortion in the first place. In an abstract sort of way, I'm a fervent libertarian, and in favor of freedom of the individual to make their own choices. That includes pregnant women. 
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:iconkoshej:
Koshej Featured By Owner Mar 1, 2018
The capability of choice itself is extremely good and useful.
An ignorant (or unpremeditated upon) choice is the worst thing possible, though.
The REAL problem comes when we try (and mostly FAIL, like we can see everywhere) to define a line between the two.
I can say the same about "free speech" - it's VERY hard to draw a CORRECT line between when it's FREE and GOOD, and when it suddenly drops to ABUSE and PROPAGANDA.
I see this line usually being either nonexistent or blurred to indecent extremes.
And yes, I will straight up claim that the CAUSE of this is nothing but the rejection of READY LINES that come from "beyond humanity".
Whether some logically-short-sighted morons understand (or accept) this fact or not.
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:iconmaskeddeviantreturns:
MaskedDeviantReturns Featured By Owner Mar 4, 2018
Your line for freedom of speech appears to be "it's okay when Koshej does it to others, but not okay when others do it to Koshej".
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:iconkoshej:
Koshej Featured By Owner Mar 4, 2018
Do I need to *BLOCK* you to show what I really think about Free Speech applied to zombies?
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:iconmaskeddeviantreturns:
MaskedDeviantReturns Featured By Owner Mar 6, 2018
If you do then it will only serve to prove my point. Though it looks like my point is has already been made with that childish idle threat of yours being what you "really think about Free Speech".

It is no secret that you frequently mock and belittle the religious beliefs of other people, but when the pendulum swings the other way and someone mocks your religious beliefs, suddenly it is completely unacceptable. Now is the point where you ramble on and on about how everyone is an idiot except for Jews and you are entitled to mock them because their beliefs are an insult to God and blah blah blah. Not interested in your excuses.
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:iconadathrine:
adathrine Featured By Owner Feb 21, 2018
Freedom is sacred, a Natural Law.

One should aim to live through the heart and without judgment.
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:iconyangxiaofan457:
YangXiaoFan457 Featured By Owner Feb 20, 2018  Hobbyist General Artist
What concerns me is that certain people are saying abortion and miscarriages are the same thing. It really makes me sad that people believe that.
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:iconsaeter:
Saeter Featured By Owner Feb 27, 2018
Under certain laws proposed by antiabortion crowds a women having a miscarriage is suspect of abortion and as such murder.
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:icongoldentrees:
GoldenTrees Featured By Owner Feb 28, 2018  Student Digital Artist
Are you implying that you agree with that concept?
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:iconsaeter:
Saeter Featured By Owner Feb 28, 2018
I'm just informing. I'm pro-choice.
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:iconkaikaku:
kaikaku Featured By Owner Mar 9, 2018  Hobbyist General Artist
In all seriousness, some Catholic hospitals will refuse to induce (much less abort) in instances like you've described, and it's leading to some risky outcomes: www.theguardian.com/us-news/20…
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:iconkaikaku:
kaikaku Featured By Owner Mar 9, 2018  Hobbyist General Artist
Some of them would. There's at least one person here who insists abortion for the sake of saving the woman's life may be justified... But it's still murder.
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:iconkaikaku:
kaikaku Featured By Owner Mar 11, 2018  Hobbyist General Artist
So, you think that because they tried to save both, it should be acceptable?Unfortunately, before 20 weeks, that can literally be impossible. Even if doctors managed to stop the baby and mom from bleeding to death, the baby can't breathe on their own and doctors also can't reattach the placenta once it pulls away.
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:iconyangxiaofan457:
YangXiaoFan457 Featured By Owner Mar 11, 2018  Hobbyist General Artist
The baby was not less than 20 weeks. He was almost due to be born. Also I cannot accept their deaths. No idea why you think I can move on from losing family. The pain is unbearable and I still haven't healed.
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:iconkaikaku:
kaikaku Featured By Owner Mar 11, 2018  Hobbyist General Artist
I think you've misunderstand my post. I don't expect you to move on. I didn't realize that this happened to your family directly and I am very sorry for your loss. It's horrible that it happened and I wish they'd been able to save them.

Here's my side of things: My friend almost died during her pregnancy.  In her case she ended up having to get an abortion, if she didn't she absolutely would be dead now. It was before 20 weeks. So there wasn't even any chance of saving the baby. People on this forum have called what she did murder even though she really had no choice.
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(1 Reply)
:iconsaeter:
Saeter Featured By Owner Feb 28, 2018
If I'm not mistaken they would have a murder investigation to see if they didn't pay the doctors to make it look like an accident. It's pure speculation on my part but it's not far from what was proposed.
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:iconsaeter:
Saeter Featured By Owner Mar 1, 2018
It hasn't been implemented yet again as far as I know but it's what some senators have propositioned.
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:iconsheepgobeepbeep:
SheepGoBeepBeep Featured By Owner Jan 28, 2018  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Abortion, for me, is not a "one size fits all" option. The only time that I would consider abortion to be okay is if either the mother or baby's life was in danger from being conceived/carrying a child. I understand that this is an unpopular opinion, but this is what I think. As soon as a sperm touches an egg and results in a living being, that embryo is a child. No child asked to be brought into this world. As Mother Theresa said, "it is a poverty to decide that a child must die so that you may live as you wish." While I am not Catholic in the least, I wholeheartedly agree with this. However, there are a couple situations where abortion could be considered:

1. The child is putting the mother's life in danger. While this is not a common occurrence, this does happen. In this case, I believe that it would be up to the mother of the child (and the father too if he has decided to be in his child's life). 

2. The mother is extremely young. Some girls can conceive as young as nine. If this is the case, then abortion may be an option, as it is, in my opinion, kind of cruel to make a young child go through pregnancy. 

Now, I know that you are all going to ask me this: what about rape? Rape is a very prevalent issue in society today and results in a lot of unwanted pregnancies. However, you must remember that the child that was conceived DID NOT CHOOSE TO BE BROUGHT INTO THE WORLD. The mother does not have to raise the child! Adoption is a very good option for unprepared mothers, and if this were to happen to me at my age, I would probably give the baby up for adoption. While this may seem cruel to some people for the mother, as I have said before: the child did not ask or choose to be born. It had no say in the matter. 

Before all of you freak out on me, please know that I was not necessarily raised in a strictly Christian household. While my father is Evangelical and my mother is a Mormon, they always encouraged us to develop our own opinions about the world. I only say this because if I ever take the "conservative" opinion on something, people have called me horrible things. Overall, it really depends on the situation of the pregnancy. Of course, there are other situations when abortion could be considered, but in general, to me, it is murder. As I have respected all of your opinions, please respect mine. 
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:iconstormracerprime:
StormracerPrime Featured By Owner Mar 6, 2018  Hobbyist Writer
I, for one, agree with you SheepGoBeepBeep. This is not a black and white issue, it depends on what the situation is. As grim as it may be for those who are pro-life, there are times where the child must be aborted. If the health of the mother or child is at a severe risk, then that should be an option no question. I absolutely agree that it should be an option for a rape victim, or if the mother is too young and made a mistake. However, I think that the woman needs to consult with a specialist and weigh her options fully instead of just simply saying "I'm having an abortion." That being said, the final decision belongs to the woman getting the procedure, and only her. 
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:iconactsofart:
ActsofArt Featured By Owner Feb 13, 2018  Hobbyist General Artist
You do realize mother Theresa was a horrible woman who intentionally made people who could have been helped suffer, because she truly believed that suffering was their deserved fate, right? You're not exactly helping your case by quoting her.
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:iconsaeter:
Saeter Featured By Owner Feb 27, 2018
Not a lot of people know that.
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:iconactsofart:
ActsofArt Featured By Owner Mar 3, 2018  Hobbyist General Artist
But they should, and if you are going to go out of your way to use a quote to make your case You should always know - as best you can - the character of that person. For your quote will be taken in the context of who that person was and how they lived their life. And it will inform on what kind of person you are (either fairly ignorant because you used a quote without knowing the true character of the person it came from - or a truly abhorrent person who believes in the suffering of women as a matter of course ( at least in the case of quoting Mother Theresa to defend antiabortion rhetoric)).
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:iconsaeter:
Saeter Featured By Owner Mar 3, 2018
I think you're mistaking me for SheepGoBeepBeep?
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:iconactsofart:
ActsofArt Featured By Owner Mar 6, 2018  Hobbyist General Artist
heh, no, I was just using "you" a little too generally. I meant "you" as in "any person who does this." But I can definitely see how it looks that way.
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:iconsaeter:
Saeter Featured By Owner Mar 6, 2018
They block you?
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:iconroyalsneep:
RoyalSneep Featured By Owner Jan 27, 2018  Student Filmographer
1+2) My stance on abortion is if the couple did not plan on conceiving the child in the first place- should they be allowed to get the fetus removed from the uterus.  I also believe if the baby could cause them a financial problem, or that they are not fit to be proper parents they should also be allowed the abortion.  However if they originally planned on having the baby and are financially/mentally/physically/emotionally stable they should go through with it.  You should not simply wimp out on raising a life that comes from you.  As for stances of r*pe- just get rid of the baby conceived if such a thing happens (whether it be that the man was r*ped or the woman).

3) Many people think that it is solely the woman who should be in charge of whether or not the abortion takes place.  In my opinion however I think it should be the decision of both members of the party.  For example if the man wants the abortion, that should very well be considered.  Many men get trapped into supporting the child even though they don't want it [the unborn baby-18yrs], and I think it's a little bit bullshit (mind my language) that you should get stuck paying for something you didn't want in the first place.  Like I understand why there are some things you have to pay for (like taxes, bills, etc.) but what if you get stuck supporting a child that you had the option to get rid of?  Even without abortion, you could still have set up an adoption of the child- but in the case of the woman choosing to go through with the pregnancy she also has the ability to charge you for child-support.  In turn however those who do believe in woman having the full right of their child do argue that since it is the mother who carries the child and eventually gives birth to the baby- she has the right to decide whether she does have the child.  And that's completely valid, since pregnancy puts so much strain onto the body.  It is also emotionally devastating to most woman when they learn they can't have a child, even when they want to.  Most woman have been programmed into thinking part of being alive means reproducing to keep generations going.  And that if you take that away from them, they are no longer real people, but rather just shells of their beliefs.

4) My reasons for these beliefs stem from both religious reasons (I'm a buddhist) and moral reasons.  In my mind all lives matter, both male and female, and their feelings rightfully matter as well.  Men and woman should have equal say on things such as raising a child- because normally it takes both of them to do so successfully.  I'm not saying that single parents aren't a thing, but the best way to raise a child is with two parents who can keep the family financially stable and intact.  As for abortions- an abortion usually occurs before an embryo/fetus has matured enough to survive outside of the uterus.  And if the embryo/fetus can't survive outside of a uterus is it really alive in the first place?  I understand it has a heartbeat, but so those who are in comas they'll never wake up from.  Just because something has a heartbeat does not make it living.  People who come from severe crashes could very well be brain dead, and the only thing keeping them "alive" is a pump stimulating their heart so that their loved ones could say goodbye to them- even if they've already passed on.
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:iconactsofart:
ActsofArt Featured By Owner Feb 13, 2018  Hobbyist General Artist
You shouldn't penalize women by forcing them to get permission to do something that will have huge health effects on them. If you don't like the child-support system (which is actually super easy to avoid, plenty of women have shared their stories about how their ex's managed to get out of it with relative ease) you should work to change that law, rather than giving men rights to women's bodies.

Keep in mind also, that most women aren't the ones seeking child support, the government does this on their behalf when women apply for any kind of social aid to help support their child. Many women I've talked to would do without any help from fathers who don't want their kids. But because we won't properly fund government programs that would aid these mothers, instead the government seeks out the biological father to supplement what voters aren't willing to support.

You didn't mention the other side of it, but if men really want a child, but the mother wants to abort then there is a more reasoned solution than forcing women to go through an extremely drawn out, stressful, and medically dangerous ordeal. That is to dump that woman and find someone who actually wants a child with you. Forced birth is a terrible idea. But giving men a decision in the process is exactly what that would lead to.
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:iconsheepgobeepbeep:
SheepGoBeepBeep Featured By Owner Jan 28, 2018  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I respect your opinion wholeheartedly, and I hope that you will respect mine. Does the child ask to be born? Did it ask to be conceived? I do agree that occasionally abortion is an option, but I believe that it should have very strict regulations on it. I am a mix between Agnostic and Mormon, I guess. I do completely agree with you that all lives matter! And yes, while it is preferable that a child has two loving parents, sometimes the best choice is for a mother or father to be a single parent, for example, if one of the parents is abusive or irresponsible. Thank you for sharing your opinion with us! :love: 
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:icongreen-tea-flower:
Green-Tea-Flower Featured By Owner Edited Jan 19, 2018  Student General Artist
Men should only have an opinion on Abortions when Men become Biologically Capable of giving Birth, but until then, if you don't have a Uterus, you don't have a Valid Say.
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:iconhow2101:
how2101 Featured By Owner Feb 12, 2018  Student Digital Artist
And if this argument is applied to other aspects of life? Like crimes or mass shootings for example? 
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:icondraggah-n:
Draggah-N Featured By Owner Feb 21, 2018
This actually works in those cases. Men are biologically capable of crime and mass shootings, so they have a say on those matters.
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:iconhow2101:
how2101 Featured By Owner Feb 21, 2018  Student Digital Artist
Yes, but would women? And would any normal human be able to argue against mass shootings done by a mentally ill person since they don't understand what it's like for that person? 
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:icondraggah-n:
Draggah-N Featured By Owner Feb 22, 2018
Yes.
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:iconhow2101:
how2101 Featured By Owner Feb 22, 2018  Student Digital Artist
Why? By the abortion argument, they have no clue what they experience if they don't have the mental illness themselves. That's the abortionist argument applied elsewhere. If men can't condemn abortion, then anyone who does not have mental illnesses similar to the shooter's can condemn mass shootings. 
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:icondraggah-n:
Draggah-N Featured By Owner Feb 22, 2018
Everyone IS a little crazy, so it works.
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:iconsheepgobeepbeep:
SheepGoBeepBeep Featured By Owner Edited Jan 28, 2018  Hobbyist Digital Artist
...I'm not honestly sure what to say. I do respect your opinion, so please respect everyone else's on here. I am a girl, and I believe that if I had a child, the father should be able to have an opinion on what to do with the child. What makes you able to decide whether or not people can have opinions on certain things? With your logic, people should not be allowed to have an opinion on guns unless they are shot with one first to "see what it feels like." However, I do respect your opinion, though I do not agree with it. 
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:iconlittleredripper:
LittleRedRipper Featured By Owner Mar 14, 2018  Hobbyist Digital Artist
The point is the man can give his opinion on it if he wants but in the end he doesn't get a say because he's not the one who has to go through the pain of carrying the fetus and giving birth to a child. 

If men were biologically capable, instead of women, to give birth to another being then he would get to have the final say  because it would be his body birthing it. 

The gun argument doesn't work here because anyone can get shot and anyone is capable of getting their hands on one. Guns can be used by men and women alike and they can both experience the full effects. 

However, men cannot go through childbirth. 
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:iconcichantea:
CIChantea Featured By Owner Jan 25, 2018  Hobbyist Writer
Why do you think that men cannot have an opinion just because they are not capable of giving birth?
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:icongreen-tea-flower:
Green-Tea-Flower Featured By Owner Jan 26, 2018  Student General Artist
For one thing, Pregnancy is a very uncomfortable, sometimes dangerous condition. Also, Giving Birth kills more women and girls every year than Abortion (And it's not even close.)
Men don't have a Uterus, so they'll never the know the pain of Childbirth, and I'm a firm believer that if you don't know what that's like, keep your mouth shut!
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:iconcichantea:
CIChantea Featured By Owner Mar 23, 2018  Hobbyist Writer
Abortion actually ends more lives per year than childbirth does. According to WHO, there are about 830 deaths relating to childbirth per day, or about 302,950 per year (www.who.int/mediacentre/factsh…). By contrast, just in the US in 2014 there were at least 652,639 according to the Wikipedia page (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion…).
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:iconroyalsneep:
RoyalSneep Featured By Owner Jan 27, 2018  Student Filmographer
But what if the women is only going through with having the child because she wants the man to pay child support?  Not all men are against abortion- some are for it when the women aren't.  Are you saying that men shouldn't have a choice in either say?

Because going with your logic, men shouldn't have the right to say whether or not they want their wife/girlfriend to have the child.  What if the man is the one r*ped and the woman is going through with having the child so she can charge him for the next 18 years?
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