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December 3, 2012
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:iconandharian:
Andharian Featured By Owner Dec 3, 2012  Student General Artist
Hey I know wizards need to know magic and all. But wouldn`t they need to study science anyway? I mean, do wizards not need to digest food, or are things not made out of atoms for them? Biology, and Chemistry, and most of Physics- wouldn`t they still need to learn that stuff, or do they remain oblivious to it?
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:icondivine--apathia:
divine--apathia Featured By Owner Dec 7, 2012  Hobbyist Photographer
Irish travellers finish school early. Most girls are pulled out around 10-11. They are very 'enclosed' culture, too. If they live that way in real life, why can't wizards?
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:iconandharian:
Andharian Featured By Owner Dec 7, 2012  Student General Artist
Well, Irish Wizards then.
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:icondivine--apathia:
divine--apathia Featured By Owner Dec 7, 2012  Hobbyist Photographer
Wut. Irish travellers are a real culture, similar to gypsies. If a real culture can do without it, than why isn't it feasible that a fake one can?
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:iconandharian:
Andharian Featured By Owner Dec 7, 2012  Student General Artist
Are you saying knowledge isn`t important? What point are you even making?
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:icondivine--apathia:
divine--apathia Featured By Owner Dec 7, 2012  Hobbyist Photographer
Bitch please, I'm an education student.

My point is that there are people in England that do not have education past the same age as wizards do, and their cultures are similar, in the sense that they are insular. It's not a plothole.

If you want to talk about plot-holes, They celebrate Christian things like Christmas*, yet they are 'witches', which are supposedly evil.


*I know it has roots in paganism, but they aren't celebrating pagan festivals which christmas comes from, but rather christmas itself.
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:iconandharian:
Andharian Featured By Owner Dec 7, 2012  Student General Artist
er- the whole point of Harry Potter was that 'muggles' made up the whole 'evil' deal about wizards because they saw them on a broom a few times, in their black robes. It says so in 'Quidditch through the ages'. So no, that`s not a plot hole at all, sorry.

Also I hate to break it to you, but wizards don`t exist just in England. And science is taught in schools, which was my point.
Well yes, I understand but majority do study about science but I was wondering how wizards survive with zero knowledge of that stuff.

Wait you`re an education student? If you`re a student doesn`t it imply you`re getting an education anyway...
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:icondivine--apathia:
divine--apathia Featured By Owner Dec 7, 2012  Hobbyist Photographer
- the whole point of Harry Potter was that 'muggles' made up the whole 'evil' deal about wizards because they saw them on a broom a few times, in their black robes. It says so in 'Quidditch through the ages'. So no, that`s not a plot hole at all, sorry.


Qudditch was invented in medieval England. The bible, which had been around for MUCH longer, has the passage 'You shall not suffer a witch to live'.

So yes, plothole.

Also I hate to break it to you, but wizards don`t exist just in England

No, but we've only seen how the English system works.


And science is taught in schools, which was my point.
Well yes, I understand but majority do study about science but I was wondering how wizards survive with zero knowledge of that stuff.


...The same way that people who don't have an education in real life survive, which is my point the whole time :slow:


Do you really not know what an education student is? I'm studying education.
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:iconandharian:
Andharian Featured By Owner Dec 7, 2012  Student General Artist
But in Harry Potter that ISN`T TRUE. Which is obvious considering all wizards aren`t bad. And you`re taking this in a religious sense, that`s stupid. Religiously almost everything in fantasy is a sin.

WHICH IS MY POINT. They survive, but it`s a pity they haven`t got the choice to study it, whereas muggle kids can.


lol ambitious
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(1 Reply)
:iconstoneman123:
stoneman123 Featured By Owner Dec 6, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I think the way it generally works is that magic is considered to be a force utterly removed from or directly opposed to the laws of nature. By working magic, a wizard circumvents the laws of physics, and thus would only need to concern themselves with the laws governing magic.

However, nothing is fixed in speculative fiction. I have encountered settings where the magic is itself a fundamental force of nature, interacting with matter and energy and governed by its own scientific laws. I've also seen wizards for whom magic and science were utterly indistinguishable. And I've seen wizards who, though recognizing magic and science as fairly distinct forces, were nevertheless proficient in both.

Anyway, such speculation is really only necessary if you intend to write some fantasy yourself. Like I said, nothing is fixed in speculative fiction, so when you read about wizards of varying degrees of scientific literacy, understand that there is no objective standard to judge them against. They may simply be ignorant as a product of their culture (for the pseudo-Medieval variety), or such knowledge could be completely superfluous to them.
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:iconandharian:
Andharian Featured By Owner Dec 7, 2012  Student General Artist
But I am writing fantasy xD
aand yeah I agree with you, lot`s of stuff regarding Physics would be irrelevant. But Biology and Chemistry should still be taught!
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:iconstoneman123:
stoneman123 Featured By Owner Dec 7, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Oh, I see. I thought this was just idle speculation. When you write about wizards, naturally you could establish how magic works and how it relates to mundane sciences. Consider this, though: chemistry and biology are both just applications of physics, and thus should be just as easy to circumvent. If your wizards are going to be educated in both magic and science (perhaps they are scholars in addition to being wizards?) keep in mind that no scientific education would be complete without and understanding of physics. After all, nothing is fixed, but it at least has to be internally consistent.
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:iconandharian:
Andharian Featured By Owner Dec 7, 2012  Student General Artist
I agree with you! Which is why I think everything pertaining to science wizards can relate to, they ought to be taught. Why? Because it`s such a pity not knowing!
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:iconroguishbard:
RoguishBard Featured By Owner Dec 6, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
The movie The Sorcerer's Apprentice answered that quite nicely, in my opinion. The wizards in that, as you say, have an extensive knowledge of physics and other sciences in order for their magic to work. i.e. In order to set something on fire, they know that they have to vibrate the atoms of a particular structure at a fast enough pace that it undergoes a combustion reaction.

Harry Potter, unfortunately, goes by the explanation of "Magic, damn you!" while beating you over the head with a spellbook.
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:iconandharian:
Andharian Featured By Owner Dec 7, 2012  Student General Artist
xD haha perhaps they teach the science behind spells then? I suppose that would be more relavant for them, like what you just said!
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:icondarkxnight:
DarkxNight Featured By Owner Dec 5, 2012  Student General Artist
Hmm...maybe science and math aren't big among wizards. I mean, why worry about those things when magic does so much of that boring stuff! It's those poor Muggles who have to deal, and that's why they are the cool inventors :meow:

I'm sure that there are classes somewhere...prolly not in wizarding schools. Maybe they briefly cover it in Muggle Studies?
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:iconandharian:
Andharian Featured By Owner Dec 6, 2012  Student General Artist
but but science it importaaaant ;-;
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:icondarkxnight:
DarkxNight Featured By Owner Dec 9, 2012  Student General Artist
xD yes, that's true.
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:iconnenril-tf:
Nenril-Tf Featured By Owner Dec 4, 2012  Student Traditional Artist
The have to, i saw in your reply that you mean Harry Potter saga, but if you remember they can choose some lessosns to attend as they wish but other are already decided, also you know that exist only 8 courses that are really few, so they have other to not count that before 11 years old they have to attend normal schools.

In general they have to know it, also because a branch of magic is alchemy.
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:iconandharian:
Andharian Featured By Owner Dec 4, 2012  Student General Artist
But you don`t learn any of the important stuff when you`re ten? So they wouldn`t know anything about neurones and alveoli, and villi and things right?
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:iconnenril-tf:
Nenril-Tf Featured By Owner Dec 4, 2012  Student Traditional Artist
how do you know it? i mean, they have only 8 courses that we noticed, probably they have also literature, biology physics math etc etc
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:iconandharian:
Andharian Featured By Owner Dec 4, 2012  Student General Artist
uhm, no in the books they mention all the options and none of those are in it, except 'muggle studies' which is probably our histories, development and life-styles, but not science.
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:iconnenril-tf:
Nenril-Tf Featured By Owner Dec 4, 2012  Student Traditional Artist
where? they mention only the 8 i counted, but probably i missed something, where do they mention all the options?
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:iconandharian:
Andharian Featured By Owner Dec 4, 2012  Student General Artist
Hermione took ALL the subjects, and we know which subjects she took, so those would be all.
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:icondivine--apathia:
divine--apathia Featured By Owner Dec 7, 2012  Hobbyist Photographer
No, she didn't.
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:iconnenril-tf:
Nenril-Tf Featured By Owner Dec 4, 2012  Student Traditional Artist
I'm saying this, can you give me the part which all this subjects are written?
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:iconandharian:
Andharian Featured By Owner Dec 4, 2012  Student General Artist
uh no, find it yourself? They tell you all the subjects Hermione takes AND they`re listed on Pottermore.
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(1 Reply)
:iconwolflogics:
wolflogics Featured By Owner Dec 3, 2012
which magic you are talking about? black magic or just plain simple magic, i.e regular magic
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:iconandharian:
Andharian Featured By Owner Dec 4, 2012  Student General Artist
I`m talking about Harry Potter.
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:iconytcyberpunk:
YTcyberpunk Featured By Owner Dec 3, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
I thought this thread would be about the little-known Ralph Bakshi movie. Instead, it's another "Harry Potter" thread about a plot-hole.

But to answer your question, yes, I think Harry and pals do have to be ignorant of science, math, and logic. Otherwise, they'd start to question all the plot holes and illogical plot twists that exist in the world they live in. THINK Potter! Without goofy magical rules that defied the laws of physics, you'd have been snuffed in your crib!
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:iconandharian:
Andharian Featured By Owner Dec 4, 2012  Student General Artist
yeah but xD XD BIOLOGY WOULD STILL- I MEAN- BUT.
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:iconmr-timeshadow:
Mr-Timeshadow Featured By Owner Dec 3, 2012
See, that's why I don't read fantasy: I always want to know the underlying rules, and fantasy leans away from that, or at least focuses on "how" to the near-avoidance of "why". Science fiction, my native turf, is roughly opposite. I would love to see a fantasy book or series that explored why a certain wand flourish and incantation caused a particular effect. Who or what decided that? If you understood the foundations of magic, could you create or delete whole classes of magical behavior?
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:iconandharian:
Andharian Featured By Owner Dec 4, 2012  Student General Artist
I know! I adore fantasy, adore it, but I always always need a reasoning for something! Even if it`s magic, I need to know how or why, for the full impact to hit, and not be constantly bothered by it xD Also a fantasy world with reasoning is easier to believe in, and hope that it might be real xD
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:iconmr-timeshadow:
Mr-Timeshadow Featured By Owner Dec 4, 2012
I can't say I have the enthusiasm for fantasy, but that is because I always felt the rules were too fuzzy. I look forward to following up on that suggestion to read Diane Duane's series. It sounds promising.
My feeling is that if magic existed, language wouldn't unlock it; the force that unlocked it would never leave such a loaded gun lying around, to be fired by human babbling. Instead, it would somehow lie beyond speech, a bit like Zen Buddhism. It would require a meditative state far beyond most folks' capability.
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:iconomicronwanderer:
OmicronWanderer Featured By Owner Dec 3, 2012  Student Digital Artist
you might like Diane Duane's 'So you want to be a wizard' universe then. her interpretation of wizardry leans much more towards Science fiction than fantasy (which is not suprising as she tends to stay within scie-fi) as universe has clearly defined rules and mechanisms in place for the manipulation of the world. by the second book her system is pretty much sound however the series does get a bit depressing as it continues on.
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:iconmr-timeshadow:
Mr-Timeshadow Featured By Owner Dec 4, 2012
I checked it out on Amazon, and found I can get the opening three volumes in one set, for a song. Neat! I'll order it before the month is out. Thanks for the suggestion. I look forward to checking it out during the Christmas vacation.
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:iconmr-timeshadow:
Mr-Timeshadow Featured By Owner Dec 3, 2012
I can live with "depressing" if the books are that good. Thanks for the suggestion! I'll bop on over to Amazon and check them out right now!
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:iconomicronwanderer:
OmicronWanderer Featured By Owner Dec 3, 2012  Student Digital Artist
well...not so much depressing as they go pretty well into human psyche which can get somewhat dark to say the least.
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:iconmr-timeshadow:
Mr-Timeshadow Featured By Owner Dec 3, 2012
Okay, I like that in stories. Not gratuitous gore or the like, but explorations of the human psyche are fine by me.
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