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November 16, 2012
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Help with commission theft

:icontoatoneart:
=ToAtoneArt Nov 16, 2012  Professional Writer
This suggestion has prolly been made before, but I don't know how to check that, so...

As you know, people use points and cash for buying and selling art on dA. We use the points on anything from buying a prem-mem to buying art from others, and the cash on...well, anything we want. It promotes making art, gift giving, etc.

BUT the nasty underbelly is that sometimes, people abuse this. I recently was waiting over a year for a commission that I had already paid for, only to have the deviant deactivate recently--taking my payment with them.

My husband also recently explained, in detail, a commission that was meant to be two rivals fighting one another. What he got was a yaoi picture of the two all but cuddling. No refund. No offer to fix it. And eventually, they stopped responding.

You could make a system for it. I was talking about it with a friend weeks ago, and I think it's fairly well thought out. As the commissionee, you fill out a dA sheet, saying your price for what. It gets posted, and someone clicks it. They click on the things they want (ex: cell colored, two characters, waist up, 500:points:, or $6), and fill in the details of the commission (pose, reference images, etc.). You accept or decline, and once you accept, it checks to make sure they have the points/cash for it. If they do, it takes the the commissioner's payment and holds it. If they don't have the points/cash, it rejects the commission for you.

At this point, you do your work, and post it into a form that states it's for that commission. It pays you the points/cash, the person has their commission, everyone's happy. If you aren't happy with the work you got, it allows for a, like...complaint, or something, requesting a few things be altered. The commissionee looks this over, and decides if these alterations are viable. If the fault is on the commissionee, for examle for not reading properly the details etc, and is too big to just alter, you could make a complaint, and may be entitled to a refund.

If the commissionee deactivates, the points/cash get automatically refunded to the commissioner. If the commission takes longer than an agreed on amount of time (they may decide on a month, or a year, or anything in between), to make said commission, a prompt is brought up, asking both sides if they are still interested in the commission. If the commissionee says no, the points are refunded. If the commissioner says no, the artist is informed, and further action is needed (the artist may have almost finished said work. It would be unfair for them to do all that work, and not get payment If the commissionee doesn't answer for a month, they are again refunded.

And of course, to make it worth their time, dA would take a pinch of the points/cash as well. Say, 10%. It would also make better use of the dA cash, which is actual money that can be sent to us as a check, or we can use on the site, and many don't even know exists.

It gives more order to the commission system we've made, and is over all more professional. Every business has a receipt/refund clause. Why not dA for commissions?
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Devious Comments

:icongrimface242:
It would be even more headaches if dA took over governing commissions. Headaches for both sides. dA is notoriously not that speedy on getting back to its members whether it be the help desk, reports or anything in between. I doubt this would be speedier.

An option is to use the Premium Content feature. The commissioner takes the info and makes the picture. In order for the commissionee to get said picture they have to fork over the points to get the download. I doubt anyone that doesn't commission it will want to download, but the creator also has the options to remove it from Premium Contest once it's been downloaded by the commissionee.
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:icontoatoneart:
=ToAtoneArt Nov 19, 2012  Professional Writer
Eh, it used to be bad at getting back to people--upwards of a month at times--but I've noticed for a few months that if the issue is really warranted, they're on it in as little as overnight.

A lot of people really don't care that much about the download ability... :( Hell, some artist don't allow for download period, even of commissioners, for fear of theft. ;-; But for many, your idea isn't a terrible one.
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:iconrebelatoli:
Personally, I find most scam people usually seem to get dealt with pretty easily without needing any assistance from DA staff.

Pretty much like art thieves, you find they'll just get flooded with comments calling them a scammer, people will write journals, other people will report them.

In the end, they either end up deactivating or getting banned. And sometimes even returning the points they scammed.

--------
I do think, though, that some sort of profile widget for making a commission would be good.

For example, it'd have a link to the commission information. And various check boxes to choose the type of commission, the style... And a text box to provide details, links to references and sheets.

Then, the person could optionally get an approximate price (in points) if the artist put prices in.

When submitted, the information would be condensed and send in a note to the artist, or perhaps as a 'commission' in with the messages. (like feedback messages, llama received messaged, etc...)

After that, they could continue to discuss through the widget, or via notes.

There could also be a 'pay' feature. The commissioner would send the points and they would sit in the 'transaction'. Neither part would have access to it, essentially it would be 'on hold'

The artist, when they have completed to art, could submit and mark it as a commissioned piece.

The commissioner could then click pay, and perhaps even have a star rating system, based on communication, speed, etc. (NOT art quality.)

And perhaps even a way to search for high rated (though I suppose it could easily be abused by someone doing a bunch of 1 point transactions with an alt and rating them 5 stars every time)

and finally

If the artist doesn't log in or do the work within a certain amount of time (ie, one month, two months...); then the commissioner could click a 'request status' button. If the artist doesn't respond to that for a certain period of time, then have the option to get a refund. And if it was due to real life issues or similar, then they could dispute the refund.
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:icontoatoneart:
=ToAtoneArt Nov 18, 2012  Professional Writer
Scams that have to do with commissions are different, and I find they hardly EVER get dealt with, and usually deactivate before anyone would get the chance. :shrug:

Again, they just deactivate, then make a new account--much like most art thieves do.

Returning them rarely ever happens. :(

YES! Like ebay has or something! It'd make it easier tot rust artists that demand payment up front for work. You're getting exactly what I'm saying! :D

Looks like my average just raised 3/6 on the forums. XD
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:iconrebelatoli:
That's why you also have to be very careful with how you do commissions. Ask to pay half until completion, or for a quick sketch before payment. Check their profile; is there other commissioned art posted?

Have they been a member for long? Are there a lot of comments hidden on their profile (But not marked as spam)..

Perhaps send messages to people that commissioned him/her. Ask how their experience was. Did they get what they wanted? Was it quick? Were they easy to deal with?

And if they refuse to compromise with doing a sample sketch beforehand or pay half now half on completion, don't bother with them. Clearly, they aren't that interested in getting commissioned.

-------

Yes! I was thinking something like ebay! But definitely it would have to be optional, because people tend to hate being forced into stuff. (Like on ebay there was many complaints when they made paypal a requirement on all listings. And on facebook when they bought in 'timeline'.)

And I think that doing things with real money via paypal could work as well, the same as paypal; integrated with the site, going through paypal to pay and such.
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:icontoatoneart:
=ToAtoneArt Nov 19, 2012  Professional Writer
Even with the precautions you gave, one can still be scammed. In my last situation, the person had been doing commissions for over a year--and I ALWAYS look at past commissions before I commission someone.

They'd been here for almost two years, and had no foreseeable hidden comments.

Yes, this is a good idea, but still doesn't cover you. My husband got an awful commission from someone who was a friend of a friend. They gave him something of half the quality of ALL of their other commissions, hair and eye color was off, and the clothes were drawn wrong. He asked it be fixed, and was told it was impossible, He called in the fact the person had a refund policy, and they changed their refund policy right then to no refunds.

I'm totally in agreement on the don't deal with them thing. Sadly, most actual skilled hobbits and professionals on dA want it all up front, though. :(

I like this 'like ebay' idea! And I totally agree with the optional thing. Because like someone else said earlier, if it was made mandatory, it'd start to feel like a communist site or something. lol I agreed: I love rules and order, but demanding full control is just too much...

I hate the timeline thing. I rarely use facebook anyway (only to keep up with non-artist friends and my older family members).

Yes and yes again!
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:iconcalstor:
~Calstor Nov 17, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
No, I am not comfortable with Deviantart interfering with commissions. Commissions should remain as personal contracts/transactions between the artist and the buyer. And I really don't approve of the idea that deviantart should be checking people's bank accounts. Many artists don't take points, and usually go through paypal. So if there wasn't any work received then the buyer could dispute it with either paypal or the points place.
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:icontoatoneart:
=ToAtoneArt Nov 17, 2012  Professional Writer
I never said bank accounts. I made it very clear, at the end, I was referring to dA cash, which is here on deviantART.

Paypal and deviantART only refund if you dispute it within a few days or so. I knoiw--I've checked.
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:iconcalstor:
~Calstor Nov 17, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
I just agree with what others have said on here. I don't think deviantart should get involved in commissions. I really think buyers should carefully research and communicate with artists, and if they need to dispute through paypal or da then so be it.
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:icontoatoneart:
=ToAtoneArt Nov 17, 2012  Professional Writer
Your rebuttal is flawed. Paypal won't accept disputes that are just so old, firstly. Secondly, as this would be elective, anyone who didn't want to do it wouldn't have to;l and if you wanted to, and the other person didn't, then you'd just move on and not work with them. Most ppl have actually agreed this was a great idea, and I'm shocked the forums have been where two ppl have said it was okay, if it had a lot of modifications, and another 5-7 have been completely against it.

I'll tell you the same thing I told someone else, and it might help you understand a bit.

There are a lot of ppl on dA who had been doing commissions for literally years, and they started getting behind at the same time as losing the urge to draw. They needed the money, so they no longer have it. But rather than communicate this, they release the account, considering all the money to go to the wayside; like bankruptcy with no negatives. They eventually make a brand new account, once they feel the urge to draw again, and all is well for them.

This is a semi-common practice.

On the flip side, there are people that go around, looking for people who do commissions. They pay half up front, then once the pic is posted, sent to their email, posted on another site (even if it has a watermark), etc. They download it, and they never pay the other half. They go around, doing this until they get a bad rap. Then, they go to another alt they made awhile ago, and do it again, bouncing from one to another with different oc's. Lord knows, every time a new anime comes out, there's a new wave of OC's from some ppl (which is fine. Nothing wrong with it.).

This is also a semi-common practice.

My idea makes it so these issues are impossible to happen. They might only be a combined...let's say 7%+, but isn't something that's a ELECTIVE and you can chose TO do, or NOT to do, that can make it so it never happens again worth it...? And dA would have volunteers handling the few disputes, and making a 10% profit, so... I really see no negative
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