Libertarian psychiatrist explains suicide perfectly
www.szasz.com/iol2.html
"The person who kills himself sees suicide as a solution. If the observer views it as problem, he precludes understanding the suicide just as surely as he would preclude understanding a Japanese speaker if he assumed that he is hearing garbled English. For the person who kills himself or plans to kill himself, suicide is, eo ipso, an action. Psychiatrists, however, maintain that suicide is a happening, the result of a disease: as coronary arteriosclerosis causes myocardial infarction, so clinical depression causes suicide. Set against this mind set, the view that, a priori, suicide has nothing to do with illness or medicine, which is my view, risks being dismissed as an act of intellectual know-nothingness, akin to asserting that cancer has nothing to do with illness or medicine.
"The person who kills himself sees suicide as a solution. If the observer views it as problem, he precludes understanding the suicide just as surely as he would preclude understanding a Japanese speaker if he assumed that he is hearing garbled English. For the person who kills himself or plans to kill himself, suicide is, eo ipso, an action. Psychiatrists, however, maintain that suicide is a happening, the result of a disease: as coronary arteriosclerosis causes myocardial infarction, so clinical depression causes suicide. Set against this mind set, the view that, a priori, suicide has nothing to do with illness or medicine, which is my view, risks being dismissed as an act of intellectual know-nothingness, akin to asserting that cancer has nothing to do with illness or medicine.
The evidence that suicide is not a medical matter is all around us. We are proud that suicide is no longer a crime, yet it is plainly not legal; if it were, it would be illegal to use force to prevent suicide and it would be legal to help a person kill himself. Instead, coercive suicide prevention is considered a life-saving treatment and helping a person kill himself is (in most jurisdictions) a felony."
I believe suicide, even among mental patients, must be allowed.
I don't care if they have depression, bipolar disorder, or schizophrenia. It is ALWAYS unethical to stop them from suicide.
Coercive suicide prevention must be banned.
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Friendly reminder that political and/or religious views should be kept out of the psychiatric field and medical professions in general. 
Maybe in terms of the science.
But when making decisions about what should or shouldn't be done, it's impossible to take politics/philosophy out of it because you're talking about ethics.
This has nothing to do with the scientific nature of mental illness,it's about whether it's ethical or not to use force to deprive the mentally ill of their freedom to commit suicide
But when making decisions about what should or shouldn't be done, it's impossible to take politics/philosophy out of it because you're talking about ethics.
This has nothing to do with the scientific nature of mental illness,it's about whether it's ethical or not to use force to deprive the mentally ill of their freedom to commit suicide
Good God you are fucked up?
a lot of people that are on the edge are looking for someone to help. others are looking for any reason to keep living. many people who were stopped, or stopped themselves, went on to become happier.
that's only to say that i don't think the answer is that simple.
that's only to say that i don't think the answer is that simple.
Must we make certain issues political, including suicide and suicide prevention?
Well yea, this is an issue about freedom and policy, naturally politics come into play
How is it ok in any way to let someone commit suicide.
A lot of times suicidal tendancies come from chemical imbalances or life habits that can be worked on and changed. As someone who was suicidal and finally got my fucking shit together, I would never want anyone to let me go looking back at it. Because now I have this life to live and I want other depressed people to experience that as well.
A lot of times suicidal tendancies come from chemical imbalances or life habits that can be worked on and changed. As someone who was suicidal and finally got my fucking shit together, I would never want anyone to let me go looking back at it. Because now I have this life to live and I want other depressed people to experience that as well.
I don't know what being a libertarian has to do with it. They could much more simply say "Person who is apathetic about what other people do with their own lives thinks other people doing whatever they want with their lives is fine."
So uh yeah, duh.
The problem with saying the mentally unstable should be allowed to commit suicide is that they're mentally unstable. It doesn't really matter what they think is the solution because they're mentally unstable. They see it as the solution because their mind is so focused on everything that is wrong and bad, how much of a burden and how terrible they are that they don't see any other options because they are mentally unstable.
The mentally unstable need to be helped, sometimes against their will, because unlike you and men with our rational brains and our ability to process logic and reason, they cannot.
So uh yeah, duh.
The problem with saying the mentally unstable should be allowed to commit suicide is that they're mentally unstable. It doesn't really matter what they think is the solution because they're mentally unstable. They see it as the solution because their mind is so focused on everything that is wrong and bad, how much of a burden and how terrible they are that they don't see any other options because they are mentally unstable.
The mentally unstable need to be helped, sometimes against their will, because unlike you and men with our rational brains and our ability to process logic and reason, they cannot.
I want to clearly understand what you are saying. If a person were to feel that suicide is a solution to his woes, then somehow he is mentally unstable, even though he relates well to others and gets along just fine in social and professional settings? I am asking is at what point is a suicidal person deemed to be mentally unstable? Maybe they have had their fill of life's BS and simply cannot take it any longer. I suppose one could regard suicide as a permanent "safe space."
Statistically you're talking about such an anomalous selection of the population as to not warrant discussion. The number of people who commit suicide but are otherwise functional, social, well-rounded individuals is so infinitesimally low compared to suicides among the mentally ill as to not be relevant to the discussion.
So, you are putting conditions on what is allowed? I agree that a person who is under a drug or alcohol influence should be stopped from harming himself, as one example. The crux here is that a person who is otherwise healthy and seems to be doing well otherwise wants to commit suicide is considered to not be sound of mind, therefore, this does fit into the conversation quite well. There my be millions that you and I do not know of who can function quite well, but have an extreme difficulty in coping with life's little ups and downs. What to do there? Stop them or let them end it?
I'm sorry. I'm not going to engage in a hypothetical that there are millions of normal people who are doing just fine with life and are suddenly going to up and commit suicide.
Life has conditions. There is no be-all-end-all answer for you.
Life has conditions. There is no be-all-end-all answer for you.
Okay, overlook the obvious if you choose. Perhaps they only seem to be highly functioning but are torn up inside for years. I hear about this sort of thing all the time.
The problem here is: How do you define mentally unstable?
People who commit suicide aren't all bereft of their senses or act in the heat of the moment. Many search for help and suffer for years until they decide to end their lives fully aware of what that means.
Do you think it would be better to force those people to stay and be locked away in mental institutions while heavily sedated? Or what about people who are teminally ill without a chance of surviving? Do you really think they should be forced to suffer through it all instead of dying with dignity?
To claim that people who commit suicide don't have the agency to decide for themselves is terribly short-sighted and conceited in my opinion. As is "saving lives" at all costs. I'm still glad that my 81 years old grandma didn't survive the surgery where here legs were amputated to "save her life".
People who commit suicide aren't all bereft of their senses or act in the heat of the moment. Many search for help and suffer for years until they decide to end their lives fully aware of what that means.
Do you think it would be better to force those people to stay and be locked away in mental institutions while heavily sedated? Or what about people who are teminally ill without a chance of surviving? Do you really think they should be forced to suffer through it all instead of dying with dignity?
To claim that people who commit suicide don't have the agency to decide for themselves is terribly short-sighted and conceited in my opinion. As is "saving lives" at all costs. I'm still glad that my 81 years old grandma didn't survive the surgery where here legs were amputated to "save her life".
With a long history of mental health science and study.
If there is NO possibility of recovery I think "assisted suicide" is an acceptable event. But this is a far cry from letting every Tom, Dick and Harry who thinks suicide is their only option just kill themselves.
If there is NO possibility of recovery I think "assisted suicide" is an acceptable event. But this is a far cry from letting every Tom, Dick and Harry who thinks suicide is their only option just kill themselves.
Are you saying the will of the mentally unstable is invalid?
If so, then their lives are invalid. The value of life comes from the ability to express ones will. If what you're saying is true, then we should let them kill themselves, becuase their life has no value
If so, then their lives are invalid. The value of life comes from the ability to express ones will. If what you're saying is true, then we should let them kill themselves, becuase their life has no value
Our value as a society is how we help those most in need.
I really want to know this; why do people think suicide is bad? Surly people have the right to die, right?
1) Most suicide attempts lead to failure. A while ago, I did the research on how much it costs to help someone who tried to kill themselves but failed and no longer want to die, and it was to the tune of 40k$ a year per person. Who pays that? Not the guy committing suicide, but everyone else through their taxes.
2) People who kill themselves leave people behind... and that includes their children, and/or a spouse that now has to provide for themselves. Do you think dead beat dads who leave their family behind as a good thing or a bad thing? Do you say "hey, if this guy want to leave his children behind, he has the right to do that?"
Thing is, if you're the type who can _successsfully_ commit suicide AND manage to take care of the people who rely on you even after you're dead, then you're likely the kind of person who wouldn't kill yourself. If you can do that, then go on ahead.
Of course, NAPnaptionalist has already said (in other threads), that parents can have children and just leave them behind because it would be immoral to force parents to take care of their children, so I'm not surprised he considers suicide perfectly fine as well.
2) People who kill themselves leave people behind... and that includes their children, and/or a spouse that now has to provide for themselves. Do you think dead beat dads who leave their family behind as a good thing or a bad thing? Do you say "hey, if this guy want to leave his children behind, he has the right to do that?"
Thing is, if you're the type who can _successsfully_ commit suicide AND manage to take care of the people who rely on you even after you're dead, then you're likely the kind of person who wouldn't kill yourself. If you can do that, then go on ahead.
Of course, NAPnaptionalist has already said (in other threads), that parents can have children and just leave them behind because it would be immoral to force parents to take care of their children, so I'm not surprised he considers suicide perfectly fine as well.
"Of course, NAPnaptionalist has already said (in other threads), that parents can have children and just leave them behind because it would be immoral to force parents to take care of their children, so I'm not surprised he considers suicide perfectly fine as well."
No I didn't.
I said parents do not have an ethical duty to LOVE their children. They do have an ethical duty to take care of them
No I didn't.
I said parents do not have an ethical duty to LOVE their children. They do have an ethical duty to take care of them
"I said parents do not have an ethical duty to LOVE their children."
And how many threads have you made where you aid a person cannot love another person, only himself?
And how many threads have you made where you aid a person cannot love another person, only himself?
We can love the perception and the idea of another person.
We cannot love another person since we cannot directly know or understand the inner thoughts of that person.
For example, you have your perception of me. My mom has her perception of me. My friends have their distinct perceptions of me.
But only I know who "me" is
We cannot love another person since we cannot directly know or understand the inner thoughts of that person.
For example, you have your perception of me. My mom has her perception of me. My friends have their distinct perceptions of me.
But only I know who "me" is
I can't really disagree with that. As someone who sees things more objectively, who has dwelled on suicide in the past(and found out that doesn't have the guts for it) and believes the value of life is really subjective for a species that number in the billions, I can say that, at least in a personal standpoint, I agree.
That said, as I know an objectivist society wouldn't work, I don't think the general public would ever see suicide in that form. Even considering how the Netherlands(I think) have places for assisted and observed consumption of drugs, death is generally a tougher subject on people's minds, and for the way society is built, the value of one's life doesn't measure to the impact, be it temporary or not, that it has on the life of those surrounding him or her.
Not that I agree with that, but...
That said, as I know an objectivist society wouldn't work, I don't think the general public would ever see suicide in that form. Even considering how the Netherlands(I think) have places for assisted and observed consumption of drugs, death is generally a tougher subject on people's minds, and for the way society is built, the value of one's life doesn't measure to the impact, be it temporary or not, that it has on the life of those surrounding him or her.
Not that I agree with that, but...