Regarding the rebel flag
Many claim it is a symbol of "southern pride" but I must disagree. Many people have southern pride and do not use that symbol. It is extremely offensive to the millions of African Americans, whether they live in Georgia or New York.
My take on it: the flag is symbolic for the confederacy and the old south. Most people that proudly display the flag, have a nostalgic pining for "the good old days." Many of these people hold valid beliefs that "the south should have won the Civil War" or they try to argue that the war was not about slavery. (Or they comically try to turn it on the north somehow
) So while the flag is not racist in and of itself, it is symbolic for a horrible time in American history. It is also a piss poor symbol to honour Civil War vets with. Like using a Swastika to honour a Nazi grandfather.
What do y'all think? Southern pride or racist undertones? Admittedly a lot of country musicians that I listen to have the flag on album art and so forth, and none of their songs are racist or even glorifying "an old south." They just celebrate life in the south and the country in a contemporary manner. I don't think everyone that flies the flag is racist, but I do think it is ignorant to deny the symbolism.
My take on it: the flag is symbolic for the confederacy and the old south. Most people that proudly display the flag, have a nostalgic pining for "the good old days." Many of these people hold valid beliefs that "the south should have won the Civil War" or they try to argue that the war was not about slavery. (Or they comically try to turn it on the north somehow
) So while the flag is not racist in and of itself, it is symbolic for a horrible time in American history. It is also a piss poor symbol to honour Civil War vets with. Like using a Swastika to honour a Nazi grandfather. What do y'all think? Southern pride or racist undertones? Admittedly a lot of country musicians that I listen to have the flag on album art and so forth, and none of their songs are racist or even glorifying "an old south." They just celebrate life in the south and the country in a contemporary manner. I don't think everyone that flies the flag is racist, but I do think it is ignorant to deny the symbolism.
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Fuck the African-Americans, they should sort out their gang culture out first before crying about white people waving flags.
Well, I found the racist twat! 
Facts are hardly racist :^)
Given the flag as it's used today was not officially used by the CSA in that form, I'd regard the use of it as an insult to both sides of the Civil War.
It was used in a square form, in the very corner of two flags they used. But that would be comparable to taking a dark blue flag with a single white star on it, and calling that the Texas state flag. Or doing the same thing but with 50 stars, and saying that's the modern American flag.
It was used in a square form, in the very corner of two flags they used. But that would be comparable to taking a dark blue flag with a single white star on it, and calling that the Texas state flag. Or doing the same thing but with 50 stars, and saying that's the modern American flag.
The 19th century called. They want their Lost Cause debate back.
Really, this is a case where both sides are right. The Civil war was started over slavery, and fought over patriotism. It was often called "The rich man's war, the poor man's fight." The wealthy land owners and politicians in the South wanted to keep their slaves, so they declared war. Many in the South didn't want to fight against their homeland with the Union army, so they fought against the Union. This was exactly the case with Robert E. Lee, who was a Union general, but switched out of his love for the South. Politically, the war was about slavery. On the battlefield, it was about patriotism. Many people today forget the slavery part, and choose to fly the flag in support for the South.
Humanity has an infinite hard-on for symbolism. Going all the way back to the very cradle of civilization, what stand out more than anything else? Symbols. Carved into rocks, carved into wood, made of metal, of cloth, humanity calmers to symbols because it gives humanity something to rally behind, a since of purpose, of pride, of meaning. It can be for the greater good, or greater evil, and history is filled with egotistical assholes who used symbolism to push there agenda and ideology with thousands fallowing the mob rule. The justification for the hatred I understand, I get the reasoning. You hate because of representation. Why is anything Swastika or SS related banned in Germany? Because of what it represented.
However with the confederate flag there is so much misconception about the flag but nobody seems to care even if the thing they hate is what the flag represented. But people ignored facts and just looked for something to symbolize so they can rally behind hating it. Calling "The Rebel Flag" the "Flag of the Confederacy" is inaccurate. Ironically it never was the Flag of the Confederacy. The Nazi's used the eagle and swastika in many different things, from rifles, tanks, planes, and in flags. The German civilian corps of engineers had a swastika in there flag. Were they as evil as there political party? It's an inanimate object. It doesn't hold political affiliation or hatred of anyone. It merely exists. Only through symbolism and we as human do people learn love or hate.
It did not become a symbol of hate until the Klu-Klux-Klan revival in the 1920's who paraded it around Washington DC in there mass parade. And it was further imbedded into people minds with the 1950's and 1960's with desegregation and the Klan using that flag as there symbol. And even today every time I watch some documentary on white supremacist or the Klan, I always see that battle flag. So that is where I can see why people believe it is a symbol of hate. Humanity learned that it can't destroy human nature. If I am going to hate you, I will. And there is very little one can do to change such a mentality. However focusing on an object trying to destroy the symbolism is what the growing trend is. But even that has backlashes with many different interpretations of the symbolism sprouting up all over the place. Worst of all those who feel there own heritage and pride taken away because someone else is offended.
You can ban it's sales in stores, you can burn it, tear it up, spit on it, and edit it out of history book, but you cannot stop me from my constitutional rights to fly that flag, regardless of what you think it represents!
TL;DR : Stop being a bunch of overly sensitive pussies for something existing. It is an inanimate object who's only real power is the power of symbolism, and it is your fault for perpetuate it that symbolism.
However with the confederate flag there is so much misconception about the flag but nobody seems to care even if the thing they hate is what the flag represented. But people ignored facts and just looked for something to symbolize so they can rally behind hating it. Calling "The Rebel Flag" the "Flag of the Confederacy" is inaccurate. Ironically it never was the Flag of the Confederacy. The Nazi's used the eagle and swastika in many different things, from rifles, tanks, planes, and in flags. The German civilian corps of engineers had a swastika in there flag. Were they as evil as there political party? It's an inanimate object. It doesn't hold political affiliation or hatred of anyone. It merely exists. Only through symbolism and we as human do people learn love or hate.
It did not become a symbol of hate until the Klu-Klux-Klan revival in the 1920's who paraded it around Washington DC in there mass parade. And it was further imbedded into people minds with the 1950's and 1960's with desegregation and the Klan using that flag as there symbol. And even today every time I watch some documentary on white supremacist or the Klan, I always see that battle flag. So that is where I can see why people believe it is a symbol of hate. Humanity learned that it can't destroy human nature. If I am going to hate you, I will. And there is very little one can do to change such a mentality. However focusing on an object trying to destroy the symbolism is what the growing trend is. But even that has backlashes with many different interpretations of the symbolism sprouting up all over the place. Worst of all those who feel there own heritage and pride taken away because someone else is offended.
You can ban it's sales in stores, you can burn it, tear it up, spit on it, and edit it out of history book, but you cannot stop me from my constitutional rights to fly that flag, regardless of what you think it represents!
TL;DR : Stop being a bunch of overly sensitive pussies for something existing. It is an inanimate object who's only real power is the power of symbolism, and it is your fault for perpetuate it that symbolism.
Although you've sounded civil, this is still a poor defense of that flag. The "it's an inanimate object" argument is a nonargument. Nearly everything we argue about or talk about are inanimate objects. The healthcare law is inanimate, it's just words written on paper- a lot of paper, and therefore it's harmless because it's just paper? No, that's a pointless thing to even bother saying.
Like it or not, flags ARE symbols. They symbolize nations, symbolize pride, symbolize history, symbolize cultures and sometimes symbolize absolute evil. Whether it is determined to be 'evil' or 'historical' is obviously subjective.
If you wanted to make that argument, you should have. I referred to the KKK having adopted that flag in several replies to these confederate flag threads- it's not currently a flag flown by a country and it was adopted by a pretty vicious group of people, so knowing that flags are symbols and knowing this flag has become a symbol of the KKK (through adoption as well as association)- why would you support flying it?
That is the basic question I would ask anyone- and no, I don't care if you're just pissed off at the rage-parade and that's the real reason. I don't like the rage-parade either, and think the current outrage over the confederate flag is more related to internet culture (i.e. twitter) than anything else. Nobody here is "claiming" the flag represents anything beyond what society as a whole believes it represents. Whether or not the battle flag is "accurately" the confederate flag or not is irrelevant- it has been referred to in common speech as "the confederate flag" for over a century and that's just what we call it. The same way we refer to ground beef patties as "hamburgers" even though that name is technically inaccurate. You cannot argue against all of society. Everything from the clothes you wear to the things you say are all done within the context of a larger society of people whom will see and react to the things you do.
You don't get to choose how they interpret it, nor what they call it. You don't get to replace their history (blacks terrorized by the KKK or people who support the Union and not the confederacy) with your history ("it's my heritage").
As others have pointed out, your "constitutional rights" to fly the flag are not being denied by anyone. A state capital decided to take it down and several private businesses decided to stop selling it. That's their choice.
So you can lump everyone who doesn't like the confederate flag with the internet rage, and liberal politicians, and President Obama, and everything else you're angry about this evening together into a huge mass and erect a great big strawman to burn down. Or you can just recognize that this flag has become an unpopular symbol that might just best be forgotten about.
Like it or not, flags ARE symbols. They symbolize nations, symbolize pride, symbolize history, symbolize cultures and sometimes symbolize absolute evil. Whether it is determined to be 'evil' or 'historical' is obviously subjective.
If you wanted to make that argument, you should have. I referred to the KKK having adopted that flag in several replies to these confederate flag threads- it's not currently a flag flown by a country and it was adopted by a pretty vicious group of people, so knowing that flags are symbols and knowing this flag has become a symbol of the KKK (through adoption as well as association)- why would you support flying it?
That is the basic question I would ask anyone- and no, I don't care if you're just pissed off at the rage-parade and that's the real reason. I don't like the rage-parade either, and think the current outrage over the confederate flag is more related to internet culture (i.e. twitter) than anything else. Nobody here is "claiming" the flag represents anything beyond what society as a whole believes it represents. Whether or not the battle flag is "accurately" the confederate flag or not is irrelevant- it has been referred to in common speech as "the confederate flag" for over a century and that's just what we call it. The same way we refer to ground beef patties as "hamburgers" even though that name is technically inaccurate. You cannot argue against all of society. Everything from the clothes you wear to the things you say are all done within the context of a larger society of people whom will see and react to the things you do.
You don't get to choose how they interpret it, nor what they call it. You don't get to replace their history (blacks terrorized by the KKK or people who support the Union and not the confederacy) with your history ("it's my heritage").
As others have pointed out, your "constitutional rights" to fly the flag are not being denied by anyone. A state capital decided to take it down and several private businesses decided to stop selling it. That's their choice.
So you can lump everyone who doesn't like the confederate flag with the internet rage, and liberal politicians, and President Obama, and everything else you're angry about this evening together into a huge mass and erect a great big strawman to burn down. Or you can just recognize that this flag has become an unpopular symbol that might just best be forgotten about.
Anything associated with the confederate government and army is associated with hate, because they were very headstrong about keeping slavery from being abolished. There is nothing to be nostalgic about.
That's the dumbest thing you've written so far!
Elaborate.
Don't toot your own horn. It's not in the least bit elaborate or complex, it's stupid!
But without slavery our nation would not be what it is today. I'm not agreeing it's practice was acceptable mind you.
Slavery was the Southern economy's major workforce with some 4 million slaves. So when the Government wanted to abolish slavery this was the water that was put on the grease fire. What do you do when you are told your workforce doesn't have to work? Who will work the fields? Cotton at the time was America's number one cash crop. The action would devastate the South and that is why they chose secession. They were protecting there ability to produce. Another reason is the Northern vs Southern economy. The Northern was machining and manufacturing, while the south was agriculture and farming. This lead to a lot of animosity between business vs land owners who felt the vast majority of the wealth went to the North.
Slavery was the Southern economy's major workforce with some 4 million slaves. So when the Government wanted to abolish slavery this was the water that was put on the grease fire. What do you do when you are told your workforce doesn't have to work? Who will work the fields? Cotton at the time was America's number one cash crop. The action would devastate the South and that is why they chose secession. They were protecting there ability to produce. Another reason is the Northern vs Southern economy. The Northern was machining and manufacturing, while the south was agriculture and farming. This lead to a lot of animosity between business vs land owners who felt the vast majority of the wealth went to the North.
Our nation would be better off. Without slavery you also don't have the same oppressive racism. "Who will work the fields?" How about white people, for a change I have ZERO sympathy for the southern cause during the war.
I have ZERO sympathy for the southern cause during the war.The history book never tell what happened during the war, and the countless atrocities committed on both sides. The North's Camp Douglas(which was just outside of Chicago) and the South's Andersonville. Look at Sherman's march to the Sea. Along the way his men burned, raped and killed everyone and everything in there path. He turn Atlanta, Savannah, and Colombia to ashes, destruction not seen on a city again until the Atomic Bomb. Not to mention Sherman's men openly killed free slaves who did not join them.
If you want a really interesting read, bone up on the Missouri/Kansas Boarder wars. That's absolutely brutal, and many of which took place before the civil war and was one of the catalyst that cause the war.
If you want a really interesting read, bone up on the Missouri/Kansas Boarder wars. That's absolutely brutal, and many of which took place before the civil war and was one of the catalyst that cause the war.
It does not matter what the north did, because northerners don't go around being proud of their civil war history. Northerners don't have any nostalgia for that time period, only a select group of southerners do. Lots of southerners are actually proud for the war, while nearly every northerner has moved on. And in the end when comparing the immoralities of both sides, it is apples to oranges.
As soon as you state something along the lines of "it doesn't matter what they did" you become as bigoted as your enemies.
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It does not matter what the north did, because northerners don't go around being proud of their civil war history.It does not matter, not because that is an entirely irresponsible statement, but because it doesn't support your narrative. Also, the second half is not only a generalization, but quite a false one at that. How many northerners are on here that openly tell the south they lost (gloating by the way) and need to move on? They boast about it all the time, they are no different than the "south shall rise again" crowd.
Also, don't forget that in the north, blacks tend to be treated really bad. Indiana and Oregon were and still are part of the north of course, and many historians who know their State histories will tell you that both of those States were worse towards freed blacks than the south was towards slaves- and no I'm not bullshitting you on that either. Under on constitution, Indiana wouldn't even allow blacks or mulattoes to migrate to the State, and the HARSHEST laws against blacks were in Oregon.
So yes it does matter- it's history, whether you like it or not.
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The North moved on because they could afford to. The South still clings to their antebellum past for the same reasons that the Russians are nostalgic about the Soviet days.
The North screwed up the Reconstruction period, big time. They had suffered as well, of course. Still, the fact that he freed slaves were released to a devastated region, whose economy had disappeared, is a mistake that haunts both North and South to this day. The fact that poor white Southerners had to compete with freed slaves for scarce jobs did not contribute to the healing process. There's a story in the film "Mississippi Burning" that Gene Hackman's character tells about his father. He'd poisoned his black neighbor's mule because he couldn't stand to have a black man be more successful than he was.
The North screwed up the Reconstruction period, big time. They had suffered as well, of course. Still, the fact that he freed slaves were released to a devastated region, whose economy had disappeared, is a mistake that haunts both North and South to this day. The fact that poor white Southerners had to compete with freed slaves for scarce jobs did not contribute to the healing process. There's a story in the film "Mississippi Burning" that Gene Hackman's character tells about his father. He'd poisoned his black neighbor's mule because he couldn't stand to have a black man be more successful than he was.
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It does not matter what the north did, because northerners don't go around being proud of their civil war history. Northerners don't have any nostalgia for that time period, only a select group of southerners do. Lots of southerners are actually proud for the war, while nearly every northerner has moved on. And in the end when comparing the immoralities of both sides, it is apples to oranges.
You clearly have never been to a single Civil War reenactment have you?
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"Anything associated with the confederate government and army is associated with hate"
YOU associate it with hate.
YOU associate it with hate.
As do millions of Americans, mostly African Americans.
And ?
If these people are 'mostly' African American, they do not form the general consensus of the Americans people....
If these people are 'mostly' African American, they do not form the general consensus of the Americans people....