Fascism vs Liberty


TBSchemer's avatar
After being subjected to VISIONOFTHEWORLD's theory that libertarians are secretly fascists who invented the word "liberty" to cover for their efforts to crush freedom, I think this community needs to have an open discussion about the definitions of "fascism" and "liberty." 

Liberty is freedom of the individual from government control. 
Fascism is total control of the individual by the government in the interests of the country. 

Libertarians believe the freedom of speech in all forms should be protected. 
Fascists believe speech (and especially political speech and contributions) should be controlled. 

Libertarians believe in free market competition (capitalism). 
Fascists hate capitalism, believing it empowers individuals at the expense of the power of the state and the people who comprise it. 

Libertarians believe voluntary action is the best way to solve most problems. 
Fascists believe all problems of society should be solved through government action. 

Libertarians believe in race-blind laws. 
Fascists believe the law should benefit the "disadvantaged" races at the expense of the "privileged" races. 

Libertarians believe parents should be allowed to raise their own kids as they see fit. 
Fascists believe children are the property of society as a whole, and must be raised by the state through government-run education and service programs. 

Libertarians believe crucial services such as health care are too important to be left to the government. 
Fascists believe crucial services such as health care are too important to be left to the free market. 

Fascists accuse libertarians of being "plutocrats." 
Libertarians accuse fascists of being, well, fascists. 

All of these comparisons are based in historical literature and quotes from the fascist leaders, Benito Mussolini and Adolf Hitler. It's pretty clear that Liberty and Fascism are polar opposites. Does anyone have trouble coming to terms with any of these descriptions? 
Comments144
Join the community to add your comment. Already a deviant? Log In
Internetexplorer968's avatar
I'd go with fascism. Better than having libs blame everything on conservatives.
Aftherion's avatar
Fascism is better. 
BlushingBeauty0's avatar

I truly hate and despise TBSchemer

And DaZimmerMan PhineasJamesVinci Ironhold TheRedSnifit  BraveSwordTactitian  shinbum KrowKaw Adelaidejohn1967 evilwraith666 TheSilverWulff  Starfiyah LadyQueenBee very-sexy NovemberFoxtrot  WrathofSlutty MaskedDeviantReturns TheMasterButcher999 OopsISaidItAgain ReptillianSP2011 Gromitzy skulkey Didj JJWsmith  Greatest-I-am Saeter toomuch89 Tsukuart Ravennatheblackqueen JDMWanganPichu SavageFrog JetArt101  dualzxz Marini4 Fujiwara-Anna Leonartisan  CourageoftheMagi Blackbutler123x darkcarol9 theBlackWolff LadyRans Adorabamf Bryd013 infinitetolerance  Denece-the-sylcoe nosugarjustanger CourageoftheMagi midgetpenguin83 secondJax muffinlovesunicorns1  xXSerena-CrosseXx  hte-1-hsaman Xion-Yami BabyRC Morals2liveby majesticmoustache InsanieJanie808  RayRay-y saxeh NikkieHale Dominosaur AvneetUB Hawksfan4848 

British-Prophetess Aiontot Starfiyah LilPhantomHorse Gro-ggy 

DoubleDandE spartanx118 EllyTheGee Jackharney1  MagnificentSparkz FedeInArte thomasVanDijk Naeleinn EdisonCoco RoyaIIant Quindayo Anonymous-Drawer Heavier-Lobster JonnyAltezza brighteyes00 retorra Soul-Daemon dogg-penis noamkitty TheCunningCondor Mizu1993 VanuInfiltrator catsglade CrimsonColt7 CaptJackZodiac DrOfDemonology KagamineLink Sceolang Fliron Kitsunefireball Krasher124 Shoujohinos MasterPlanner Internetexplorer968 Steve-C2 Katara-Alchemist LicianDragon  SmileOfMalevolence KARKlTTY Hashae Z-Pikachu Zigholtul88 WallachianBard HimitsuArtMlp SmallSauce LizzyChrome AnVirgin Abstract-Mindser mud-shark HaruShadows MonkeyFace77 Sapphire-Ashesx Pokey-Bunny skygal333  RookieBlue23 Rhapsodna ThatKidWithTheRabbit tessabe TopazGems hsherran NiceMechano RihannasKawaiiLover  Adorabamf SadistSkunk EbolaBears leo-kindred17 Cethlenn Patt-Ytto Coffee--Pot  America--Hetalia ToadsterOven AnimaImaginez ToucheElfeAphrodite Zetikla  

 

Terrymcg's avatar

People are often quick to throw the label ”fascism” around. It's actually very difficult to pin down fascism. Fascists often said one thing in public and quite another behind closed doors. Hitler and his ilk were a very cynical bunch. I don't think libertarians are facists at all, but I do think their definition of freedom is incredibly narrow. Libertarians are basically neo-liberals on stereoids. Everything should be privatized (except for the cops and the army. I guess libertarians instinctively know that their free market utopia would require a state that still has a monopoly on violence). The free market is seen as an omnipotent source of good. This is an ideological life raft for those who can see the failures of the current economic system, but still want to cling on to it's basic narratives.


Libertarians by and large don't understand that if you privatize everything, then the corporations will come in to replace the power vacuum that's left by the governments. Corporations are not interested in competition. Why the hell would they be? If you run a billion dollar company, the last thing you wanna do is to risk it all because of some idealistic princible of competition. Corporations are run in a command and control way. It's essentially central planning. The corporations also want to controll all the resources they possibly can. There is no individual liberty left, if your access to resources is determined based on your individual worth to corporations. If you have nothing, can't get water or food, then how free are you? - You are basically free to slave away for a corporation, or you are free to die.


But this is where we are headed anyway. The neoliberals are busy privatizing everything they can. The state is withering away, but maybe not as fast as the libertarians wish. The corporations are stepping into the power vacuum. In many countries of the world it's difficult to point where the corporations end and government begins.There now exists a virtual senate of businessmen and investors, who vote against government policies that are not neoliberal. The business community has never been more powerful. Yet, libertarians wan't more of this.


And of course libertarians claim that competition will save us. Do you really think you're gonna win against companies like Golman Sachs? It's like wanting to compete against a great white shark in the ocean. This is why I think libertarians are basically ideologues. Not much different from the communists of yesteryear. The market place is not a synonym for freedom. There is a reason why both Aristoteles and Plato were disgusted by it. The market place is good for some things, but you can't run your whole society based on it's principles. That will lead to abject failure. We are seeing it right now. Of course the libertarians will claim that we never had a truly free market, and they are right. We never did, because it was a pipe dream. But in the same vein communists claimed that we didn't really have a truly communist system. That the answer to the failure of communism was that we had to be even more communist. They were saying that as the system was going down the toilet. But things are never pure or absolute. The real communism turned out not to be what Marx envisioned and real capitalism didn't turn out to be what Adam Smith thought it ought to have been.


At the end of the day, libertarianism is the last life raft to people who loved the guiding narrative of capitalism; That you would rise and fall on your own merit, that the marketplace would ensure that resource depletion would never occur and we could have technological progress for ever. The narrative is appealing, but faulty. Libertarianism isn't really fascism though (although it seems Hayek was quite fine with Pinochets reign, as long as it was neoliberal, it was preferable over democracy.). It's just another crazy ideology that industrial civilization has produced.

TBSchemer's avatar
I think your biggest mistake here is in thinking that we've actually been successful at privatizing things. In the US, we've been headed in a socialist direction pretty continuously since 1895. There have only been two major interruptions of this trend: 8 years under Calvin Coolidge and 8 years under Ronald Reagan.  Aside from those two presidencies, the socialists have been winning at every turn. The real tax rates have ballooned from <5% to up to 50% for some people. The numbers of laws and regulations governing economic behavior have expanded by several orders of magnitude. Cabinet-level executive departments have usurped the power to create and implement law without the approval of Congress. 

It's not capitalism that has resulted in government-corporate cronyism, but socialism, just as it was in 1930's Europe. Capitalism doesn't give the government the power to give handouts to GE and Halliburton. Those corporate welfare programs are forced on us by socialists who think they can engineer a better society if companies get handouts for doing green energy research, or for building military equipment. 

Capitalism does work for a society. This can clearly be seen in the data:
tbschemer.wordpress.com/2012/0…
tbschemer.wordpress.com/2012/1…

Don't blame capitalism for the fascist state we have ended up in at the behest of the socialists. 
Terrymcg's avatar

What I am saying is, that this is what ”success” looks like. The privatization scheme was never going to be successful, except for a very few individuals who usually make out like bandits. Take a look at troubled countries in Europe like Greece. Privatization was supposed to be their saviour. But things are now worse than ever before. The country is even more broke.


I'm personally not really interested in idealism, whether it comes from the left or the right, makes no difference for me. There are so many idealists in the university that I go to, and they are very tiresome people. What these people fail to understand, is that the capitalism, or socialism, or whatever they have in their heads, will only exist in their heads. It was Kant after all who said :”Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made.” I am interested in understanding how the world actually works. How the real capitalism works. How the real socialism worked until it came crushing down.


The real socialism, as it existed as a historical phenomena came crashing down in the 90's. Turns out our governments are pretty good at messing things up even without the aid of socialism. The idea that corporate wellfare is forced upon us because of socialist, is quite frankly in my opinnion a conspiracy theory. There are very few card carrying socialist anywhere in the western world. In fact it takes a major crisiss before they even come close to sniffing power, like Syriza just did.

Shidaku's avatar
Liberty is freedom of the individual from government control.
Liberty is not freedom.  People who confuse these words seriously piss me off.  
-Liberty is what you have within the scope of the law.  IE: The law says I can marry a black woman.
-Freedom is what you have when there is no law.  IE: There is no law regarding the color of the sky, therefore I have the freedom to believe it is puce.

Fascism is total control of the individual by the government in the interests of the country.
No, it's really not.  Fascism is a socio-economic system whose government, while usually requiring a strong one to implement comes in a variety of shades and colors.  Fascism is more indirect control of the people through government and business than direct dictation of every-day-life.  Fascism, plain and simple is about control through limiting choice, not direct dictation.  The difference is subtle, but important: A dictator says you can only eat cold, canned beans made from the government-owned Cold Canned Beans company.  A fascist government will provide economic inventices to the Cold Canned Beans Company in order to cause other providers to go out of business.  You can still eat whatever beans you want, but Cold Canned beans are the cheapest, easiest to find and eating them means you love your government!  That's fascism.  
The end result may be the same, but really the end result of most governmental systems is the same.  It's how you do is that makes each system unique.   

Libertarians believe the freedom of speech in all forms should be protected.
Fascists believe speech (and especially political speech and contributions) should be controlled.

-My problem with these is that you've set up a horrible false dichotomy.  If a person were to believe any sort of "speech" was not speech and needs to be controled, they're immediately a fascist.  The problem with saying "all forms of speech" is that you have no limits and you can't have liberty without limits, you can have freedom which as I explained above is different, but you've essentially said that everything is speech, so where does it stop?  I think dumpting toxic waste in the river is part of my free speech.  I think having 10000 children and never supporting them financially is free speech.  The list goes on.  You've set yourself up for an impossible position Schemer, because as soon as I say "X is free speech" and you disagree, you're now a fascist.

Libertarians believe in free market competition (capitalism).
Fascists hate capitalism, believing it empowers individuals at the expense of the power of the state and the people who comprise it.

-This state is quite simply, false.  Fascists love capitalism.  Fascists have no problem with the "free market".  Fascists are interested in wealth, power and control.  If someone creates a more successful business, a Fascist will want in on that action in order to provide them with wealth, power and control.  Fascists use the wealth and power of corporations to further their own power and control of the State.  Historically speaking most fascist countries had thriving economies, but had a limitied number of large businesses (See: Japan, Germany, Russia, China) because those businesses where backed by the State and the State was in turn backed by those businesses.  It was difficult, but not impossible for new and powerful businesses to arise in fascist economies, and when they did you would often see those businesses suddenly fall into favor with the government and greatly expand their markets.   As above, Fascism is control through indirect limitation of choice.  You have to eat Freedom Fries because they're the only ones on the market, not because the government tells you to.  Small-businesses are no threat to Fascist governments, there were plenty of them in most significant historical examples of the system.  Just because the government backs Dennys, doesn't mean Mom&Pop's Coffee Shop is going to get shut down.

Libertarians believe voluntary action is the best way to solve most problems.
Fascists believe all problems of society should be solved through government action.

-This is also quite simply wrong.  Fascists believe problems should be solved.  They don't really care how that happens so long as the solution benefits the government.  As above, fascists have no problem with private industry provided those industries work for the benefit of the State.  This doesn't mean all their profits go to the State, but it means that whenever J&J Construction goes out and builds a road, everyone knows that they're building this road because the State likes roads.  Fascism is about power, wealth and control.  In a lot of ways, Fascism is itsself like a business, as long as the market (the nation) keeps its goods and services flowing, Fascism is happy.

Libertarians believe in race-blind laws.
Fascists believe the law should benefit the "disadvantaged" races at the expense of the "privileged" races.

-This isn't true in the slightest, you're just making this crap up to take potshots at Democrats.  Fascists are often nationalists.  Nationalists are often xenophobic, though it could be associated with the times, historical examples of Fascist countries certainly aren't out to protect the minorities.  

Libertarians believe parents should be allowed to raise their own kids as they see fit.
Fascists believe children are the property of society as a whole, and must be raised by the state through government-run education and service programs.

-Now you're just mixing in other systems because you know jack diddly about Fascism.  Fascists believe in three things: wealth, power and control.  They don't care how you raise your kids as long as you raise them with favorable attitudes towards the State.  Government run education programs are easy ways to ensure this happens, yes but that is a direct means of control, which again, Fascism is about indirect control.  You can raise your kids at home, but remember that the only companies selling books are State-approved ones.  You can send your kids to private school, but remember the only schools operating will be State-sponsored.  If you somehow manage to raise your kids without any of these things, most likely your kids are going to be idiots.  Idiots are not a threat to the State and will in fact benefit the state by becoming living embodiments of why the State has painstakenly promoted Joe's Bookstore, Bob's School for the Poor and your Friendly Neighborhood Library.  

Libertarians believe crucial services such as health care are too important to be left to the government.
Fascists believe crucial services such as health care are too important to be left to the free market.

-Fascists believe in control through market manipulation, so yes, they don't leave things up to the free market, but that's not the same as taking over those services themselves.  Fascism is once again about wealth, power and control and they achieve this through manipulating market forces to ensure that the companies and products available to you are all ones that are favorable to the State.  

Fascists accuse libertarians of being "plutocrats."
Libertarians accuse fascists of being, well, fascists.

-This is because Fascists aren't shy about being Fascists.  Libertarians on the other hand are inherently dishonest, as this thread demonstrates, by purposefully lying about their opposition, creating false dichotomies and a slew of other fallacies in order to trick people into thinking they're the right choice, when in reality you couldn't even two Libertarians to agree on anything.
61021376's avatar
you've essentially said that everything is speech
"all the ways to express an opinion are speech" is just not the same thing as "everything is speech". If you need to twist other's arguments to make them sound wrong, chances are you are wrong.

because as soon as I say "X is free speech" and you disagree, you're now a fascist
...if you cant tell the difference between disagreeing and controlling, chances are you are a fascist >_>
Shidaku's avatar
I really don't respond well to people who crop my rather lengthy statements down to sound bytes.
61021376's avatar
Try, at least.:ohnoes: How many little shits does it takes to consider that a "lengthy statement" is full of shit? the devil is in the details unfortunately
Shidaku's avatar
planxtafroggie's avatar
Well put, yet if we ever lived in a perfect world stuff like "9/11 Truth" wouldn't be organized around complicated-sounding BS disguised as fact.

Thing is some seriously deranged losers both on and off the internet are going to view their government as a trillion times more corrupt than it is in real life, if only because they see their own pathetic little teenage revenge fantasy in their minds as a comfort zone (read: Fight Club).
Lytrigian's avatar
Liberty is freedom of the individual from government control.

Which doesn't mean much if other forms of control are imposed by others instead, which the powerful are permitted to do in the name of "liberty".

Fascists believe speech (and especially political speech and contributions) should be controlled.

One may believe firmly in liberty, and yet believe that money is not speech, and that we should not turn the country over to an oligarchy on that theory.

Fascists hate capitalism, believing it empowers individuals at the expense of the power of the state and the people who comprise it.

There are other reasons to mistrust capitalism, which you would call "hate". One might, for example, observe that the owners of the means of production exploit labor to labor's detriment at every opportunity, which is what they've always done historically when allowed but which libertarians like to pretend never happened. One who mistrusts capitalism -- that is, believes the libertarian version of laissez-faire capitalism isn't the best for society -- is not thereby a fascist.

There are also free-market economies other than capitalism.

Fascists believe the law should benefit the "disadvantaged" races at the expense of the "privileged" races.

One who correctly observes that some races are indeed disadvantaged, and that some are indeed privileged, is not thereby a fascist. Funny how it's almost always a member of a privileged class who cannot see this. Even so, one might argue in good faith that affirmative action is not the best remedy without resorting to name-calling.

Fascists believe children are the property of society as a whole, and must be raised by the state through government-run education and service programs.

Public education is fascist. You heard it here first, folks. (I should hardly have to point out that if one believes in good quality public education, and in serving the needs of impoverished or abused children, one is not thereby a fascist. But with TBS you never know.)

Fascists believe crucial services such as health care are too important to be left to the free market.

If one correctly observes that the unbridled free market very poorly serves the healthcare needs of all, one is not thereby a fascist.

Fascists accuse libertarians of being "plutocrats."

If one correctly observes that policies favored by libertarians inevitably lead to a regime where the government is controlled by the wealthy, one is not thereby a fascist. It's not as if libertarians do this on purpose, mind you. They simply have a naive vision of how people behave, and honestly think that "enlightened self-interest" will work toward the good of all. They've very wrong, but they wear virtually impenetrable ideological blinders.

All of these comparisons are based in historical literature and quotes from the fascist leaders, Benito Mussolini and Adolf Hitler

Along with some subtle redefinitions, and by buying some of their propaganda, sure.
TBSchemer's avatar
If you hold one view in common with fascism, then that certainly does not make you a fascist. But if you hold A LOT of beliefs in common with fascism, then yeah, you might be a fascist. 
Lytrigian's avatar
Or you might cherry-pick a selection of views held in common with a number of political philosophies, most of which have genuine public good in mind, and phrase them so that if you tilt your head and squint at them JUST right you can ascribe them all to fascism as well, and then make a list out of them in an attempt to paint all those other political philosophies as fascist.

That might make you feel good, but it's not very honest.
TBSchemer's avatar
You think just because you "have the public good in mind," that gets you out of being a fascist? 

Tell me, which bullet points in Mussolini's "Fascist Manifesto" do you actually disagree with? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_…

Which bullet points in Mussolini's "Fascist Manifesto" actually contradicts with the beliefs of most US Democrats? 
Lytrigian's avatar
Tell me, which bullet points in Mussolini's "Fascist Manifesto" do you actually disagree with?

You first. And if you tell me you disagree with all of them, I'll call you a liar.

Which bullet points in Mussolini's "Fascist Manifesto" actually contradicts with the beliefs of most US Democrats?

Clearly, Democrats don't agree with all of them. Are you trying to construct a slippery slope argument here? Because American progressivism has been around for a long time without really (in real-world terms, that is, as seen by people other than you) sliding toward fascism. Most alarmists have been content to accuse it of communism, which is kind of the opposite.
TBSchemer's avatar
You first. And if you tell me you disagree with all of them, I'll call you a liar.

Heh, if I claimed to disagree with all of them, it would probably be more effective to call me sexist. Yes, I do actually agree with the fascists that women should be allowed to vote. 

:bulletblue: I disagree with the "national councils of experts," which are similar to the cabinet-level regulatory agencies we have in the US. 
:bulletblue: I disagree with the limits on the length of a workday. 
:bulletblue: I disagree with the minimum wage. 
:bulletblue: I disagree with giving labor unions executive-level control over companies. 
:bulletblue: I disagree with nationalization of the transport sector. 
:bulletblue: I disagree with government-run disability insurance. 
:bulletblue: I disagree with a government-defined retirement age. 
:bulletblue: I disagree with the nationalization of armament factories. 
:bulletblue: I disagree with the progressive tax, or any particularly sizable tax. 
:bulletblue: I disagree with the government trying to destroy religions, or religious institutions. 
:bulletblue: I disagree with the entire concept of "war profits." 

Because American progressivism has been around for a long time without really (in real-world terms, that is, as seen by people other than you) sliding toward fascism.

Sliding toward? It started there. 

Most alarmists have been content to accuse it of communism, which is kind of the opposite.

Not in any sense. Both fascism and communism are forms of socialism. They're in the same corner of the political field. 
Lytrigian's avatar
OK, so we've established that it's possible to agree with a substantial portion of the Fascist manifesto without being a fascist. I'd probably only agree with 1 or 2 additional bullets myself. Since we've also established that it's possible to agree with some bullets for reasons other than actually being a fascist, you are left with no real point to this thread.

Sliding toward? It started there.

That's absurd.

Both fascism and communism are forms of socialism.

There are several forms of socialism, most of which are neither communist nor fascist. Some are mutually compatible; others (such as communism and fascism) are not.
View all replies
Shidaku's avatar
For the record, there are 20 bulletin points to the Fascist Manifesto for Italy.  You posted 11 points that you disagree with.  It could be said that you agree with Fascists on 45% of their points.  For someone attempting to paint Fascism as the total opposite of Libertarianism, you agree with an awful lot of Fascist ideology.
View all replies
siegeonthorstadt's avatar
individual liberty is also used by capitalists to define their personal freedom to accumulate insane amounts of money, ignoring the government and  decapacitating the interests of the country. these individuals apply right wing theories to the common people, youngsters espescially to counter the more educated people who think that wealth should be shared.

and these youngsters are being tools of their very own robbers