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February 24, 2013
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Hike the Minimum Wage!

:icontbschemer:
TBSchemer Featured By Owner Feb 24, 2013
Barack Obama wants to hike the US Federal minimum wage to $9/hour. Well why not $10? Or $20? Does he not care about the lower class enough to give them a living wage? A higher minimum wage is always better, right? So why not just hike it to $1000/hour?

But seriously, why is $9 a better minimum wage than $8 and better than $10?
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Devious Comments

:icontempusnexus:
TempusNexus Featured By Owner Apr 23, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Minimum wage doesn't change often. It usually goes years before being raised. The current minimum wage is, I believe, the longest-lasting level in decades. Unfortunutely, that is the Nominal wage. The Real wage, or real purchasing power of the money, is far less. Because inflation has been running continuously, one dollar now can't buy the same things it used to be able to. So minimum wage should be raised in order to match the level of inflation.
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:icontbschemer:
TBSchemer Featured By Owner Apr 24, 2013
You're wrong. The minimum wage was raised from $5.15 to $7.25 by Barack Obama in 2009.

And yet, you're using the exact same argument he used then. So, because the minimum wage was hiked by over 40% just 4 year ago, are you going to admit that there's no need to hike it again anytime soon?
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:icontempusnexus:
TempusNexus Featured By Owner Apr 24, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
No. Minimum wage should be fixed to inflation, so that it doesn't need to be voted on every few years. If it rises at an equal rate with inflation, we wouldn't have to argue whether to raise it or not. It would remain at a Real value that would be appropriate for the current economy.
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:iconwquon:
wquon Featured By Owner Apr 24, 2013
i like where your head is at
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:iconbeesull:
BeeSull Featured By Owner Apr 14, 2013
Eh, which is scenario is really worse though?

Scenario #1:

I am able to choose whether or not I buy a burger from McDonald's and pay more for it. I could also decide to go to a grocery store like Costco, which already pays above the minimum wage, and pay what I always have paid for a meal.

or

Scenario #2:

I am forced to pay higher taxes in order to provide public services to McDonald's employees and their families. Although I never eat there, I am forced to subsidize their business by keeping their workers healthy.
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:icontbschemer:
TBSchemer Featured By Owner Apr 14, 2013
How about we get to choose what we buy, and McDonald's gets to choose what they pay their employees?
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:iconbeesull:
BeeSull Featured By Owner Apr 14, 2013
That sounds great, except when McDonald's chooses to pay their employees next to nothing we get stuck paying for it. We end up paying for their subsidized housing, we end up paying for their kids free lunch program, and we end up paying for their health care out of our tax dollars.

McDonald's should have to pay it's employees a wage that they can live on, not one that qualifies them for public assistance. I'm sick of government "handouts" being given to people who WORK. It is not the government's job to make sure that McDonald's employees are cared for so that they can continue to work, it's McDonald's responsibility. I don't want to pay for it.

Where I work, my employer takes care of me. My employer provides me with sick time, vacation time, with health insurance, a health hotline, and even a daily exercise class. You know what? My employer still makes billions of dollars every year, people still buy their products, and I don't have to beg the government for a handout. McDonald's can afford it. That is how it should be. It is an employer's responsibility to make sure that if you show up and do your job that you can live an alright life. We should not allow billion dollar companies to run their business like Ebeneezer Scrooge, with us footing the bill to keep little Tim Cratchit fed!

---
P.S. I am just using McDonald's as a random example. I actually have no idea what they pay or how they take care of their employees, so maybe a better example would be Wallmart.
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:iconblackrosekane89:
Blackrosekane89 Featured By Owner Apr 21, 2013  Professional General Artist
Well said. The times are changing and employers need to suck it up and roll with the punches as the employees have been since the fall of the economy.

Jobs like McDonald's and Wendy's are no longer just stepping stones for teens to get in the work force. We have adults trying to supplement their income with these jobs.
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:iconbeesull:
BeeSull Featured By Owner Apr 22, 2013
Thank you! I agree 100% with you! It's not just kids working at McDonald's or Wendy's anymore.

It's really bad business for them to treat their employees so poorly too. I used to occasionally drive through the McDonald's by where I live from time to time. I'll admit I liked the "chicken" nuggets. Now I don't ever go there. I haven't been there since the sad, toothless, elderly man started working there. It's just too freaking sad. If he is working, why can't he have teeth? It bothers me to no end to think about it! I would always try to be very polite to him when I drove through, but I didn't want to be too polite, because then he would think that I just felt sorry for him. In the end the angst was just to much, I avoid McDonald's now. I'll come back when that guy has teeth. LOL.
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:iconkarinta:
Karinta Featured By Owner Apr 18, 2013  Student General Artist
Well, this is an excellent post.
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:iconbeesull:
BeeSull Featured By Owner Apr 20, 2013
Thank you! :blushes:
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:iconkarinta:
Karinta Featured By Owner Apr 23, 2013  Student General Artist
You're welcome!
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:iconbeesull:
BeeSull Featured By Owner Apr 23, 2013
:D
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:iconsana24:
sana24 Featured By Owner Mar 29, 2013  Student General Artist
I'd love to get more money, but increasing the minimum wage would just raise the price of everything else so in the end it really isn't worth it...
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:iconottovon:
OttoVon Featured By Owner Apr 14, 2013  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
For the record, prices go up whether they raise the minimum raise or not. So what you have is the cost of things going up and people being able to afford less and less because their wages are not going up at anywhere near the same rate. All not raising the minimum wage does is put larger profits into the pockets of the rich and pushes those on the bottom further down the economic hole.
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:iconsana24:
sana24 Featured By Owner Apr 18, 2013  Student General Artist
I agree with you in that prices do generally go up over time and as inflation increases the minimum wage should be slowly raised, but not hiked as suggested here.

However, what keeps prices low are the competition between producers, not the money in our pockets. If the target market of can't afford their products then they aren't making any money, so by saying that "not raising the minimum wage puts more money into the hands of the rich" doesn't really make much sense because without spending there isn't any money being made.


I don't mean to sound ignorant here, but rather than complaining about the minimum wage perhaps individuals should work to better themselves by getting into skilled professions or furthering their education. It's not easy, and there's a lot of work involved, but there are numerous ways the federal and state government provide opportunities to those looking to further their education and get out of the "unskilled" workforce.
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:iconottovon:
OttoVon Featured By Owner Apr 18, 2013  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
I don't know where you live, but $10 an hour isn't going to pay the bills in any home in any significantly large city. Also, I don't know what you call slow, but according to the records ([link]) the minimum wage did not rise for the 10 year period of 1997 to 2007. Then it went up twice more and hasn't risen again since 2009. So from 1997 to 2009 the minimum wage raised $2.10 and hour from $5.15 to $7.25. There is no where in this country where you can make a living off of that salary. No where.

Your argument explaining why my argument doesn't make sense ignores the fact that a company that becomes more productive makes more money from a smaller workforce. That's called increased productivity. Productivity has risen incredibly over the last few decades upwards of three fold. That means that companies are making MORE MONEY with less staff because their productivity has changed. Well, if they are making more money and not paying their staff any more money, where does that extra money go?

I don't mean to sound rude, but you do sound ignorant. Is it your assumption that everyone who works to better themselves succeeds and thus anyone making minimum wage simply didn't try hard enough? Maybe I just misunderstood your argument but it sounds very naive.
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:icontbschemer:
TBSchemer Featured By Owner Mar 29, 2013
Exactly. =)

When the person who scrubs toilet bowls has his wage raised to the same level as the scientists in the building, two possible things can happen:

1.) Toilet bowl scrubber is fired and the scientists end up having to take time away from their research to scrub the toilets themselves, reducing their productivity; Or,
2.) Toilet bowl scrubber keeps his job and his artificially high wage, and that money will be squeezed out of the consumers who end up buying the technology the scientists are producing. Toilet bowl scrubber still can't afford to buy that technology, because he's spending all of his extra money on the higher price of food after the food producers were also forced to hike the wages of their toilet bowl scrubbers.
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:iconpassing37:
passing37 Featured By Owner Mar 26, 2013
Imagine your favorite burger restaurant having to pay their workers $1000/hour. What would your burger cost?

But yeah, some kind of minimum wage is good, provided you level the playing field by imposing tariffs on countries with lower wages. Otherwise, jobs from your country will simply disappear.
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:icontbschemer:
TBSchemer Featured By Owner Mar 27, 2013
Imagine your favorite burger restaurant being allowed to pay their workers $5/hour. What would your burger cost? What would happen to the price of food?
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:iconinconspicuousfallacy:
InconspicuousFallacy Featured By Owner Apr 24, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
I like spit on my burgers too.
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:iconbroo4:
broo4 Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2013
All this talk about minimum wages, I think the government is keeping wages low so the majority of people on low wages can't get to travel to other country's and see how good the rest of them have it!
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:iconottovon:
OttoVon Featured By Owner Apr 14, 2013  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
It's not "the government" keeping wages low. They are being lobbied by liars who pay politicians to vote against raising it because they'd rather line their own pockets with the increased profits.
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:icongussiejives:
gussiejives Featured By Owner Mar 3, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Because bounds of reason do exist on the minimum wage.  It has to at least allow the barest standard of living, Schemer, and it wasn't doing that before (likely still isn't even after the increase).

I never really figured out your opposition to a minimum wage.  Why not just ask for slavery to be made legal again?
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:icontbschemer:
TBSchemer Featured By Owner Mar 4, 2013
Unemployment caused by minimum wage laws doesn't provide any standard of living.
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:icongussiejives:
gussiejives Featured By Owner Mar 4, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
You don't have a shred of evidence that this is the case in the US.
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:iconremind-you:
Remind-You Featured By Owner Mar 4, 2013
Minimum wage laws don't cause unemployment. In fact the less an employer has to pay their employees the more jobs they can provide. Which is better, having many families barely managing to get by on a low minimum wage, or having just a small few who are living comfortably while the others have no income whatsoever?
$9 an hour is a number made up from predictions of inflation and cost of living adjustments. And could possibly ensure that major corporations would pay their employee's more, (for now) while smaller businesses would be forced to cut their staff or go under.
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:iconottovon:
OttoVon Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2013  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Now provide some actual statistics to demonstrate what you've claimed is factual.

Here's what I think is wrong with your points as I see them.

In fact the less an employer has to pay their employees the more jobs they can provide.
Employers don't hire based on what the minimum wage is, they hire based on the amount of labor needed to do business. Why would an employer higher any more or less people than they need to to perform the functions necessary to do business regardless of what the minimum wage is?

Which is better, having many families barely managing to get by on a low minimum wage, or having just a small few who are living comfortably while the others have no income whatsoever?
It's never a choice between the two opposites that you propose. That's not how the economy works. There is a medium ground where company A can pay enough people enough of a wage so that those employees can go out and purchase products and services allowing other companies (C,D & E) to hire more people because of the increase traffic for their products and services; a result of people being paid more and thus spending more.

And could possibly ensure that major corporations would pay their employee's more, (for now) while smaller businesses would be forced to cut their staff or go under.
That means that the "smaller business" is not doing enough business to employ people. They aren't being pressured out of the market because they're paying to high a wage, they are being forced out of the market because the corporation can sell the same products and services for cheaper and people stop going to the smaller businesses. Blaming it on the wages paid as opposed to the business dynamics that are supposed to be bringing IN revenue is wrong.
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:iconhjsman:
hjsman Featured By Owner Mar 10, 2013
"Why would an employer higher any more or less people than they need to to perform the functions necessary to do business regardless of what the minimum wage is?"

Answer: because a business only has a limited amount of capital to spend on labor. It's not just a simple matter of work needed. You have to think of it both ways.

"That means that the "smaller business" is not doing enough business to employ people. They aren't being pressured out of the market because they're paying to high a wage, they are being forced out of the market because the corporation can sell the same products and services for cheaper and people stop going to the smaller businesses."

You have looked over the fact that the smaller businesses have had their margins squeezed by artificially high labor costs due to minimum wage. They could have been doing plenty of business to survive, but business is a game of margins, sometimes only 1-5 percent margins even for healthy industries. Minimum wage can cause shock waves to the marginal accounting of smaller enterprises. The kinds of shock waves that only larger business can absorb through stronger capital savings, larger revenue streams and more access to their markets from having say 500 stores compared to the smaller businesses 1 or 2. This is probably why larger business have taken stronger and stronger positions in our markets. The very laws (taxes, minimum wage, required insurance etc...) that was supposed to protect workers actually favors larger business to a degree at the expense of smaller competition. Larger business takes the hit all the same but can absorb it through the adjustment of day to day activity. Smaller business just goes upside down and liquidates.

I am not just basing this on theory. I have managed small business clients in the past and a common problem for them is adding workers when needed. I ask what the problem is and the answer is always the same. Minimum wage is too high, too many insurance requirements. Now you may think that those should be things provided by the employer, but all that happened is that a job didn't get created. One guy needed to higher an admin assistant for his office for 20 hours per week. But at current minimum wage and all the other liability requirements he simply couldn't do it. The job probably would have been some 18 year old high school girl or guy still on there parents insurance anyway but the mighty wisdom of the law thinks it knows better what people want. I know another small business that had to not fill a position he was creating and had to let someone go back in 2006 when min wage was hiked. That was 2 jobs lost. How did minimum wage protect those people?
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:iconottovon:
OttoVon Featured By Owner Mar 11, 2013  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
You have looked over the fact that the smaller businesses have had their margins squeezed by artificially high labor costs due to minimum wage.

If paying someone minimum wage is squeezing your profit margins then you are a bad manager as you should be raising prices. If you have so much work that you can't get it done but you're not making enough on the jobs to make a profit then you should be charging more money. If you can't charge more money then maybe the service you're providing isn't worth the effort of having a business for. Not all businesses are meant to be successful. Some are actually bad ideas.

The rest of your arguments are "because of minimum wages and ..." where the "and" is really the reason. Minimum wage and part-time workers very seldom also get insurance and are considered in "other liability requirements". If employers are giving you that as a reason they are hiding something else or just lying. A part-time receptionist can be filled with a temp agency and all the other expenses that come with that job you claimed existed become moot.

How did the minimum wage help the people who didn't get the job of an employer who couldn't afford or didn't want to pay minimum wages? They were able to go and get jobs where a person could actually pay them a decent wage instead of working for someone who could care less about their well-being but would have worked them to the bone for nothing while the employer walked away with the benefit of their labor.
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:iconremind-you:
Remind-You Featured By Owner Mar 6, 2013
I'd attempt too, but I doubt you'd extend the same courtesy.
You're elaborate wall of text indicates you have far too much time on your hands and are able and willing to completely dissect any argument and disagree just for the sake of arguing. So after this response I'm going to block you. Because such activities bother me, especially because I've been given to the same pathetic action. You're very much right for the most part, however as I said, you wrote a gigantic wall of text and added onto points I had made and occasionally reached the logical conclusion of a point I had made in a much shorter statement. The whole time pretending you were arguing against me.
If wal-mart had one full time worker instead of 3 part time worker you would have one family doing ok instead of 3 who are at least able to eat. Since walmart doesn't have to pay certain benefits for part time workers they can hire more people. I was trying to make a simple example as not to flood the forum with text. I wish more people were as courteous.
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:iconjackmolotov3:
JackMolotov3 Featured By Owner Mar 2, 2013  Hobbyist Photographer
" A higher minimum wage is always better, right?"

thats called a strawman. no one made that argument.

you cannot live on $7/hour, anywhere in the country.
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:icon854hot:
854hot Featured By Owner Mar 4, 2013
so true! it needs to also come with health insurance and at least $15hr
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:iconjackmolotov3:
JackMolotov3 Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2013  Hobbyist Photographer
in some places it needs to be around $15, in others $15/hour would sink the local economy. it needs to be adjusted locally for cost of living.

where the cost of living is cheap, $10/hour would be fine, in places like NYC it needs to be around $15.
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:iconremind-you:
Remind-You Featured By Owner Mar 4, 2013
I've heard many people make that argument, it's based in error and a lack of understanding, however it's frequently suggested. And it's quite possible to live on $7 an hour. . . if you're actually getting any hours. It requires living very simply and outside the comfortable norm, however it's very doable.
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:iconottovon:
OttoVon Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2013  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
It's also possible to live in the streets and feed out of dumpsters. However, a full time job should do more than allow you a substance living standard.
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:iconremind-you:
Remind-You Featured By Owner Mar 6, 2013
And we should have a perfect and self sufficient society based on love and understanding given our level of progress. Do you see the problem with "should?"
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:icontbschemer:
TBSchemer Featured By Owner Mar 4, 2013
I'm currently living very comfortably on $7.33/hour. Do you really think nobody should be allowed to get a job unless they can make more than $9/hour in production? How are people supposed to start their careers?
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:icongussiejives:
gussiejives Featured By Owner Mar 4, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
A picture of white male privilege if ever there was one.  And strawmen too.
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:iconjackmolotov3:
JackMolotov3 Featured By Owner Mar 6, 2013  Hobbyist Photographer
class not race, sorry.
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:iconjackmolotov3:
JackMolotov3 Featured By Owner Mar 6, 2013  Hobbyist Photographer
I know, in the US of A, talking about class might put you on a list, but this has nothing to do with class, but race.

He's not terminally working for $7/hour. race has little to do with it.
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:icontbschemer:
TBSchemer Featured By Owner Mar 4, 2013
Why? Because I worked hard to earn scholarships, get good grades, and learn as much about the world as I possibly could? You don't have to be white to be a good student, racist.
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:icongussiejives:
gussiejives Featured By Owner Mar 9, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
No, but you don't have to deal with people claiming you got ahead because of "affirmative action." Remember, Sonia Sotomayor also earned scholarships, got good grades, and learned about much of the world, and she still had to deal with pricks like Pat Buchanan claiming she wasn't worthy of her Supreme Court nomination.

And she was a goddamned judge. How about the working mother of 3 who barely scrapes by stocking shelves at Wal-Mart?

I'm a white male, too, Schemer. The difference is I at least recognize the privileges that society grants to that status. Unlike Forest Whitaker, I won't be frisked at a restaurant because I am assumed to be an upstanding member of society based solely on my skin colour: [link] As such, you can catch certain breaks so one can live comfortably on $7.33/hour. You might have parents you can ask to help out. You might have a network of more wealthy friends. Whatever your situation is, it takes brass to claim that your comfortable life should inform others who make just as little money, because they have people THEY need to support.
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:icontbschemer:
TBSchemer Featured By Owner Mar 9, 2013
Then you should understand how harmful affirmative action is to minorities.

And no, I'm entirely self-sufficient. I earned everything I have.
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:icongussiejives:
gussiejives Featured By Owner Mar 9, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
You've tried, and failed, to convince me of that, yeah.

You've never received gifts? Not even as a kid?
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:icontbschemer:
TBSchemer Featured By Owner Mar 9, 2013
Yes I have received gifts from family members. And that somehow makes me privileged for my race? Black people aren't allowed to give their kids and relatives gifts?
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(1 Reply)
:iconjackmolotov3:
JackMolotov3 Featured By Owner Mar 4, 2013  Hobbyist Photographer
your a college kid making $7.33 an hour with the expectation of moving up in 2 short years.

Does your job give you health insurance, or do you parents still cover you?
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:icontbschemer:
TBSchemer Featured By Owner Mar 4, 2013
Actually, I'm in graduate school. I expect to move up in three years because I have career goals. It's pretty hard to end up working minimum wage for more than 5 years if you have career goals and work ethic. Even the construction workers next to my building make more than I do, and I guarantee I'm more educated than they are.

Seriously, who do you think never gets a raise in their life? Your first wage is not supposed to be the wage you make while you try to start a family, build savings, and plan for retirement. Your first wage is what you make when you're just starting out and don't know anything yet. Minimum wage laws just make it harder to start out.
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:iconjackmolotov3:
JackMolotov3 Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2013  Hobbyist Photographer
" It's pretty hard to end up working minimum wage for more than 5 years if you have career goals and work ethic. "
or don't have the opportunity to go to college. Lets face it, nothing you do at your 7.33/hour job is getting you the job you get after you graduate. Most other people working for 7-8 dollars and hour don't have this opportunity.

"Even the construction workers next to my building make more than I do, and I guarantee I'm more educated than they are. "
thats because they are most likely union, and working far far far harder than you. They won't be making more than you in 5 years. This is also there career. Not their college job.

"Seriously, who do you think never gets a raise in their life?"
a lot of people don't get meaningful raises. Your not going to escape your 7.33/hour job by getting a raise. Your going to get a job with your degree, where you work 1/4 as hard for 100 times as much.

But yes, people do get raises, it will take years though from making 7 and hour to get as much as 10 an hour.

you cannot compare your college job to someone who works a blue collar job as a career.

do you even pay rent+utilities, or health insurance, the two biggest parts of a workingman's check?
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:iconvorpalpen:
VorpalPen Featured By Owner Mar 2, 2013   Artist
They need to raise the tip minimum, too!
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