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January 8, 2013
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Israel and western countries... our relationship. Where?

:iconjaakobou:
jaakobou Featured By Owner Jan 8, 2013
Translated from a Middle Eastern Analyst with a PhD in Egyptian Law
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The “Arab Spring” has been clearly perceived in the world as an Arab self-undoing. Libya continues to burn, Yemen is burning again, Syria continues to burn, and the rest of the countries are a moment away from joining this Arab destruction. Only Israel appears as a rule of law, western rock of democracy and security. The only one you can say with certainty that she is a friend of the West. No Erdogan style winks and no hidden deals like Egypt's ruling junta. She is a real friend. Recent turmoil and claims directed against Israel goes to show just how other regional regimes are in hysteria, and try to knock this on Israel. It hasn’t gone well for them.

Western thought, a decade ago, was that by sacrifice of Israel, they could be saved. Today many see that there’s no connection between the attacks on Israel and the constant attacking of Western countries themselves, as there is no connection between the “Palestinian state” issue and the stability and order in the Middle East. The feeling among many in the West, now, is that it is of great value to strengthen Israel, because it keeps them strong with its very existence. She spearheads the fight against the new barbarism.
-- Dr. Guy Bechor


In perspective, Salafi and other hardline interpreters of Islam are taking initiative in "democratically" over-taking western-created tyrannical regimes. Personally, I'm not sure you can call this development "barbarism" even if there are barbaric methodologies employed. Brutality and mass-brainwashing was the way the old regimes, as well as the ones still clinging to their seats, kept their power. In that respect, how can we expect anyone to create change without employing similar methods. As outsiders, though, we are left to consider what values the fighting parties represent and should we trust and get involved based on their attempts to sell us stories about how evil and inhumane their enemy is. In reality, both sides have no real perspective on human rights other than the idea that they should abuse them. In true doublethink fashion, they rape, butcher, and maim each other in the most provocative ways possible yet present such instances to the western community as "shocking" proof that their enemy must be wiped out.

So where does the Israel-Western relationship goes from here? Do you agree with the Dr. or do you have another perspective?
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Devious Comments

:iconoddfox17:
OddFox17 Featured By Owner Jan 26, 2013  Student Writer
I want to know why my government pours taxpayer money into a country that:

A. Is more than capable of taking care of itself.

B. Has violated countless UN mandates

C. Treats the Palestinians like scum

D. Has nukes
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:iconjaakobou:
jaakobou Featured By Owner Jan 27, 2013
Irrelevant notes aside... if you review this thread you'll see that point A, which is the only valid one, has already been addressed a number of times. In short, the US subsidizes the purchasing of its own products, thus improving the industry's stability and further establishing itself through sales with an established high level consumer. No one wants to buy untested equipment. In short, the US "pours" money into a successful business venture in order to cash in on the rewards.

As for the other unrelated and/or exaggerated and made up "points", feel free to kiss Arab ass as much as you like. I'm sure the taste is as good as the Syrian/Egyptian/Yemeni/Iraqi/(take your next pick) massacres. Douche.
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:iconoddfox17:
OddFox17 Featured By Owner Jan 27, 2013  Student Writer
There's no need for name-calling.
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:iconjoope:
JooPe Featured By Owner Jan 30, 2013
Yeah man, cause ~jaakoboou's nationalistic, racist narrative is so in-line with reality he needs to resort to censorship and blocking to hide when someone calls him on his bullshit. This nutjob is fucking hilarious, isn't he?
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:iconoddfox17:
OddFox17 Featured By Owner Jan 31, 2013  Student Writer
Tell me about it.
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:iconjaakobou:
jaakobou Featured By Owner Jan 29, 2013
I'm always shocked to see those buying into the -- completely detached from reality -- Arab narrative. The same type of narrative that can put Ghaddafi led Lybia(!!) at the head of the human rights committee at the UN and give human rights awards to Syria's Assad(!!).
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:iconkoreansupermen:
koreansupermen Featured By Owner Jan 18, 2013
did sending israeli death squads to sandy hook help the relationship?
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:iconjaakobou:
jaakobou Featured By Owner Jan 18, 2013
Impressive trolling. I hope no one bites.
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:iconkitsumekat:
kitsumekat Featured By Owner Jan 15, 2013
You guys are like the mistress and the west is like the rich business man that has to buy new condoms after finding out you poke holes in them.
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:iconjaakobou:
jaakobou Featured By Owner Jan 15, 2013
Ouch.

Humor aside... you make a valid point in the case of Egypt and the Palestinian Authority. Both are a serious drain of corruption and pointless money throwing to support people who are not going to get better or more in line with American values. Last I checked they were saying Arafat stashed about 1 billion of the international aid.... tax money going to good use.
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:iconkitsumekat:
kitsumekat Featured By Owner Jan 15, 2013
Meh.
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:iconseth2012chaos:
seth2012chaos Featured By Owner Jan 15, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Mid eastern people still have tribal mids so they still have "tribal" fights no matter they seem to be big states. That is a tailored mechanism after the first world war and still goes on and on. About Israel I do not know why especially America kisses their behind that much but whatever Israel does there whether slaughtering the innocent, threatening others, even supporting terrorist organisations they just ignore it or support Israel. I believe that is not cause Israel is so strong or rich or whatever cause they can not stay that close to a muslim state.
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:iconjaakobou:
jaakobou Featured By Owner Jan 15, 2013
I think you're confused. I know it is a common narrative in the Arab world, but if you look at basic numbers it is clear that Arabs slaughter Arabs while Israel just tries to defend itself. 60,000 Arabs killed by Arabs in Syria just recently is a good tip.
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:iconseth2012chaos:
seth2012chaos Featured By Owner Jan 15, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
I am aware arabs kill arabs as I stated with tribal stuff. But arabs killing arabs is bad thing and israel killing arabs is not? Israel doesnt defend itself israel kills people claiming that. Was Mavi marmara defending themselves? Was supporting PKK(a terrorist organization) defending themselves? Is taking 10 lives against 1 lost defending yourself? World heard that bs enough dont know why they still tolerate it. What they did to palestine, their statements etc after the UN meeting, the threats before was defending israel too? Whenever israel brawls against iran and then cowardly attacking the mostly unarmed palestine defending themselves too? What are they defending themselves against? A couple of stones and inaccurate home made missiles?
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:iconjaakobou:
jaakobou Featured By Owner Jan 16, 2013
It is a huge shame what your new government has done to break the great relations we had. Sending a provocative ship with "peace activists" that were "brutally attacked by evil Israeli soldiers" -- see stabbing vid: [link]

I don't expect you to accept the Israeli version of events -- but to call the people of Gaza 'unarmed' is a bit of a joke... they launched 12,000 rockets into Israel the past year.
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:iconseth2012chaos:
seth2012chaos Featured By Owner Jan 16, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
If your soldiers attack a ship full of civilians and start shooting at them from the air they have the right to defend themselves like Israel so called defends themselves. In that ship there werent only turks but people from various nations. Israelis killed an american on that ship what did America do? Just ignored. If another Mid Eastern state would do it what would America do? Would bring "democracy" to a few countries. Turkish government has done what needs to be done, brought help to people Israeli government leaves to starve. Doubting Hamas could even have 12000 rockets I want to ask how many Israelis died by those rockets last year and how many Palestinians died cause of Israel's attacks last year? How many illegal residences has Israel built in West-Sharia(or whatever da name of da place is in english) that they invaded? Did Israeli government say that they can support PKK, a terrorist organisation against Turkey to defend themselves? Was threatening Palestine and other states before and after UN voting to defend Israel? The point is Israeli government have to drop that "the world is against us, they all want to kill us" kind of complexes, Israel can not build bases of their existence over bullying arab states. Why can't they "defend" themselves against Iran like they do against Palestine? Cause Iran is bigger, stronger to they can just brawl from afar. They act like coward boys staying away from the big boys and torturing ants in their backyards.
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:iconcouchycreature:
CouchyCreature Featured By Owner Jan 18, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
RE: Doubting Hamas could even have 12000 rockets I want to ask how many Israelis died by those rockets last year and how many Palestinians died cause of Israel's attacks last year? How many illegal residences has Israel built in West-Sharia(or whatever da name of da place is in english) that they invaded?

You won't get a straight answer on that, and it looks like you didn't even get an answer at all.
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:iconjoope:
JooPe Featured By Owner Jan 30, 2013
~jaakobou is full of shit and he knows it. In a 'debate' on his profile he deliberately misrepresented one of my claims, and when I kept asking how the claim changed while giving a quote and link to the original statement, he just kept blindly insisting his words were mine and finally resorted to blocking/censorship to cover his tracks. He is just a racist zionist piece of shit, no better then the arab counter-parts.
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:iconseth2012chaos:
seth2012chaos Featured By Owner Jan 18, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Yea well mate I didn't have high hopes but afterall I just gave up.
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:iconjaakobou:
jaakobou Featured By Owner Jan 20, 2013
It is not the death count that matters. It is the fact that 1 million people have to stop everything and run to a bomb shelter. Also, Arabs keep clarifying in Arabic that the death toll doesn't matter, only victory -- [link] "We desire death as you desire life".
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:iconjaakobou:
jaakobou Featured By Owner Jan 17, 2013
1. If soldiers attack a ship shooting from the air, why were there only 8 casualties?
2. If someone is defending himself in that video (repeatedly stabbing that soldier), why is the soldier not aiming a weapon at anyone?

New Turkish government decided to adopt Arabs as new friends and abandon relations with Israel. This does not mean you should ignore basic logic. If Israel sent a pro-PKK ship to Turkey -- would you like that? This is what Erdugan decided to do in support of Hamas in Gaza. Why? Because his political party decided to adopt the Arabs.

p.s. you think Israel bullies the Arabs? Look at the map: [link]
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:iconseth2012chaos:
seth2012chaos Featured By Owner Jan 17, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
1)There are 9 casualties and many more wounded. How many Israeli soldiers were dead who were stabbed? Thrown off the boat or whatever? None! There are proofs that Israeli soldiers even executed a man onboard from close range, not a meter or so but they directly put the gun on his head and executed him, an american citizen! So 8 casualties is way too small for you? Or maybe peace activists shot each other and Israeli soldiers did nothing? Maybe Israeli choppers and boats were just passing by and Mavi Marmara opened canon fire on them first so Israel defended itself? Enough with the BS kid.

2) In that video Israeli soldiers raided a Turkish ship in INTERNATIONAL WATERS! So them getting onboard is an offense enough for people to defend themselves. And if you want videos there are many more that show how the israelis attacked the ship, killed people, jammed communications! As I said before theyb opened fire from air, from the choppers so along the boarding people attacked and defended themselves!

This Turkish government rules for over 10 years now and at the beginnig they were pretty close with Israel, Turkey was involved with their ceasefires and peace talks between Israel-Syria and Israel-Palestine, even tried to tone down Iran against Israel and USA. It was Israel who didn't keep their promises and kept slaughtering palestinians, building residences in palestinian territory. It was Israel that attacked a ship full of civilians. You give me a boasted number of rockets why can't you give me the number of Israeli and Palestinian casualties in the same period? Cause those numbers don't support your statements.

"If Israel sent a pro-PKK ship to Turkey -- would you like that?" Israeli official already stated that they can support PKK against Turkey, did you see Turkey killing Israelis or occupying Northern Iraq where PKK is mostly based in? In any of Turkey's operations in northern Iraq did you see even one civilian Iraqi killed? Turkey was always close with arabs just not that apart from Israel and blame Israel for that no one else fella. Your government always forged a reason and attacked Palestine especially everytime an election is getting closer, that is the rock of democracy that unconfirmed statement tells about I guess?

P.S.: Even showing the land map as an excuse shows how psychologically insecure therefore aggressive Israel is. Never seen any of those states with huge land masses occupy Tel Aviv!
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:iconjaakobou:
jaakobou Featured By Owner Jan 17, 2013
1. (corrected) If soldiers attack a ship shooting from the air, why were there only 9 casualties? Shouldn't there be a "few" more? This is the Israeli army.

2. (corrected) If a peace activist in international waters is "defending himself" in that video (repeatedly stabbing that soldier), why is the soldier not aiming a weapon at anyone? Why was the only ship with casualties, the one where you have a video of a "peace activist" repeatedly stabbing a soldier?

You're dancing around with red herrings... how does 9 casualties change the question? Israel can kill 1000 if it wanted to but it did not want to kill anyone. how does 'international waters' change the fact that in the stabbing attack video, the victim does not pose any visible threat to anyone?

How does Palestinian casualty rates mean anything here? You want to examine PKK casualty rates and compare? The Arab world maintains a folklore that Israel stole their land and, ever since Turkey had a new government that prefers getting closer with the Arabs -- Turkey has adopted elements of that narrative. In reality, the Arab victim-hood story is an absurdity that has very little to do with reality -- sample Arab cartoon from the earlier days of Israel: [link]
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(2 Replies)
:iconthegman0:
theGman0 Featured By Owner Jan 14, 2013  Hobbyist
link?
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:iconjaakobou:
jaakobou Featured By Owner Jan 15, 2013
You're good with Hebrew?
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:iconthegman0:
theGman0 Featured By Owner Jan 15, 2013  Hobbyist
Does it matter?
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:iconjaakobou:
jaakobou Featured By Owner Jan 15, 2013
Original is in Hebrew
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:icontapedispenser:
Tapedispenser Featured By Owner Jan 17, 2013  Hobbyist Photographer
from an israeli source ofc?
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:iconjaakobou:
jaakobou Featured By Owner Jan 18, 2013
I'm sure your PhD was much harder to obtain.
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:iconthegman0:
theGman0 Featured By Owner Jan 20, 2013  Hobbyist
I'm still waiting for my link.
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:iconjaakobou:
jaakobou Featured By Owner Jan 20, 2013
[link]

enjoy
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(1 Reply)
:iconthegman0:
theGman0 Featured By Owner Jan 15, 2013  Hobbyist
Don't care.
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:iconprincess-amy:
Princess-Amy Featured By Owner Jan 13, 2013  Hobbyist Photographer
Israel is a bullying nation that picks on its neighbours, but is good at propaganda.
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:iconjaakobou:
jaakobou Featured By Owner Jan 15, 2013
Which neighbors does Israel pick on?
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:iconprincess-amy:
Princess-Amy Featured By Owner Jan 15, 2013  Hobbyist Photographer
The Palestinians.
You know, the people who lived in Palestine before israel stole their country.
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:iconjaakobou:
jaakobou Featured By Owner Jan 15, 2013
Was there ever a 'State of Palestine'? (There wasn't)
"Stolen country" and other claims are just the more credible-sounding points from the folklore the Arabs adopted as part of their "Jews kill babies" narrative. Just look at the map -- [link]
It makes little sense to accept the Arab narrative that every place they set foot must become Arab property forever and ever -- Jews were in Judea long before the Arab occupation of the middle east and when the idea of creating two states came about, the Arabs thought they can wipe the Jews off the map through sheer numbers.
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:icondebit:
Debit Featured By Owner Jan 29, 2013  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
An inconvenient observation is the popularity of Mein Kampf within the Arab world, and even in places like Turkey. Not exactly something that an Israeli is going to find amusing. (I have read its English translation before. Awful writing! It felt more like a collection of half-organized tirades.) Nay ... they are not interested in '2 state solution', if we factor in peculiarities like the popularity of the above-mentioned literature.
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:iconkalinka-shadows:
Kalinka-Shadows Featured By Owner Jan 12, 2013
The only reason the US supports Israel is because the US Congress is dominated by religious fanatics that believe Israel is necessary for Jesus to return, and are trying to create the circumstances for that prophecy to occur.

On the other side is the Muslims who are trying to bring about their version of the same thing, which conflicts with the Christian version. That's what this really is all about.
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:iconjaakobou:
jaakobou Featured By Owner Jan 18, 2013
I'm sure that's true for some people but there's plenty of other reasons as well -- a couple of them mentioned by Dr. Bechor in the translated article above.
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:iconjackmolotov3:
JackMolotov3 Featured By Owner Jan 12, 2013  Hobbyist Photographer
"Only Israel appears as a rule of law, western rock of democracy and security. "

aparantly from what I read, they are voting that out too now.

"So where does the Israel-Western relationship goes from here? Do"
Nowhere, give us back our $2 billion in foreign aid.
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:iconjaakobou:
jaakobou Featured By Owner Jan 12, 2013
Every music producer (or country) around the globe with an active business plan tries to invest money in lucrative projects. When you have in Israel (or Beyonce) a bastion of successful and lucrative projects, it is only natural the US (Jay-Z) and many others are quite happy to "pump" money in regardless of Israel's (Beyonce's) ability to make due without it. Exclusivity on information exchange with a world leader in numerous fields is a value commodity.

p.s. the US mostly subsidizes Israel's purchasing of US manufactured military items... calling it "aid" is misleading.
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:iconjackmolotov3:
JackMolotov3 Featured By Owner Jan 12, 2013  Hobbyist Photographer
Thanks for exposing Israel for playing the same PR scam as the media corps. What you have with Jay-Z and beyonce is a mess of PR hype, along with all viable alternatives squashed, intimidated, and threatened, helped along with paid for politicians and a large congressional lobby.

Funny, Jay-Z made a career out of gloriying exploitation of women and crime in general.

"p.s. the US mostly subsidizes Israel's purchasing of US manufactured military items... calling it "aid" is misleading."
still takes money away from American tax payers and funnels it overseas.
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:iconjaakobou:
jaakobou Featured By Owner Jan 12, 2013
A good investment is not a bad investment.
Thanks for exposing that you won't let reason get in your way.
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:iconjackmolotov3:
JackMolotov3 Featured By Owner Jan 12, 2013  Hobbyist Photographer
I fail to understand how giving Israel money to buy more weapons from our defense industry, which is used to further lobby congress to spend more money on the defense industry and further rip the US public off is a good investment.
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:iconjaakobou:
jaakobou Featured By Owner Jan 13, 2013
Some industries get subsidies from the government for various reasons. Weather this is so great is beyond you and me as countries have many reasons beyond pressure from money groups. e.g. remaining at a good position as a global power and manufacturing jobs to this industry even in times of peace so as not to fall behind other leading countries. In that regard, any investment relating Israel is extremely beneficial for a multitude of calculated reasons that go beyond narrow personal interests.
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:iconjackmolotov3:
JackMolotov3 Featured By Owner Jan 13, 2013  Hobbyist Photographer
"In that regard, any investment relating Israel is extremely beneficial for a multitude of calculated reasons that go beyond narrow personal interests."

name them.
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:iconjaakobou:
jaakobou Featured By Owner Jan 13, 2013
Exclusivity in field breaking projects is a good one for working with Israel. Another is the gaining of prestige through selling of your products and having them tested by a world leading military. No one would want to buy something which hasn't been properly tested in battle. I'm sure you can come up with more if you put your head to it. Israel is the Beyonce of the middle east.
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(1 Reply)
:iconthegman0:
theGman0 Featured By Owner Jan 12, 2013  Hobbyist
I had a similar conversation with this fool around the time I first joined this site. You're wasting your time.
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:iconjackmolotov3:
JackMolotov3 Featured By Owner Jan 12, 2013  Hobbyist Photographer
not wasting my time. The conversation is explaining to everyone else who's watching my side of the story.

its the same for every other thick headed douchebag on this site:

jeysie
TBSchemer
psyops-junkie/bombdrawing/whatever he's called now.

confront their ideas is the only option.(not the person, personal attacks go nowhere, except start flamewars)
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:iconvel-drawings:
Vel-drawings Featured By Owner Jan 13, 2013  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
I don't like drawing bombs as you can see ¬¬
I want peace, but people like you just want to keep blaming and blaming so the situation will never change in that region... that's all...
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(1 Reply)
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