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January 5, 2013
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Abortion - should the father have a say?

:iconsunlark:
Sunlark Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
There are a lot of debates about the legalities surrounding abortion, but no one seems to take the father into consideration. If he is married, or even just living together, he will have to pay for the child, so should he be able to force the woman into abortion? What about if he wants the child? Should he be able to stop the mother from having an abortion? And then there is the issue of one night stands, divorces and break ups. Where do we then draw the line?
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:iconcodepurpleyedrawings:
CodePurpleyedrawings Featured By Owner Feb 2, 2013  Hobbyist Artist
The man can't tell her what to do with her body. It's her body. You can't really know his or her intentions for the baby, anyway.

Think of it this way. When she's pregnant the developing child is under her care, not the father's. It's her burden to carry. Since when do you decide if some one carries groceries/fetuses or not? Since when do you decide whether someone drops those groceries? You're not the one carrying those groceries. Sure, you helped put those groceries there, but the other half is hers and she's carrying it while you are not.
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:iconnonecansee:
nonecansee Featured By Owner Feb 2, 2013  Hobbyist
IMO, it depends on the relationship of the pregnant woman and the father of the child.

If they are married, the two of them must come to a conclusion together. A married life is all about managing choices to be able to live together after all. So yes, he has a say. :)

I'm not sure how to answer if there are instances where after a one night stand/divorce/break-up that the father of the child would want his child. For those cases, I would leave it to the woman's decision. After all, she and the father of the child probably do not have any deep meaningful relationship wherein the guy would be able to persuade her to keep it or get rid of it. :shrug:
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:iconrhichter:
Rhichter Featured By Owner Jan 31, 2013
Certainly. He doesn't get the last word, however. That's almost entirely up to the mother for the sole fact she is the one investing such a colossal amount of energy into reproduction. Its an important thing to consider.

But its always the woman's choice.
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:iconhungryartistsunited:
hungryartistsunited Featured By Owner Jan 26, 2013
Pixel art-vertising: [link]
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:iconkhomaa:
Khomaa Featured By Owner Jan 26, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
In some states, a rapist can sue the mother for custody.
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:iconnonecansee:
nonecansee Featured By Owner Feb 2, 2013  Hobbyist
:o I'm trying to rack my brain for a reason as to why a rapist would want children.
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:iconkhomaa:
Khomaa Featured By Owner Feb 2, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Sometimes guys are fucking nuts and want to have kids with some women..their 'dream women' so they capture and rape them..or they have some other kind of fucked up mentality involving having sex and impregnating women against their will
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:iconmechmate4066:
MechMate4066 Featured By Owner Jan 25, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
This was already brought up a long time ago; women used to have to get consent from the fathers if they planned on having an abortion. However, the fifteenth (if I remember correctly) amendment made it so women did not have to do this, due to the reasoning that the woman has the right to her own body and her child.
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:iconstoneman123:
stoneman123 Featured By Owner Jan 24, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Men do have a say in abortion. If you decide to have sex with some woman without using adequate contraception, in my mind you have tacitly agreed to take responsibility for any ensuing pregnancies. Of course, contraception is not always efficacious, and for safety measures I feel that no man should have sex with a woman who does not support abortion or who is not his wife.

Naturally, no man should have the right to force a woman to have (or not to have) an abortion, even if it would be the best possible course of action (as it usually is, when one or both parents do not want the child). If the man has not taken proper safety precautions (i.e. using a condom, and ensuring the woman would be in favor of abortion), he should accept his foolishness and pay child support. Childbirth is apparently much more emotionally and physically draining on women, and since it them who must suffer it the most, the ultimate decision should fall to them. Compared to having to birth and raise a fatherless child, paying child support is a very gentle fate, indeed.
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:iconferaltao:
FeralTao Featured By Owner Jan 24, 2013
Well in my opinion both parents have a very obvious choice. The mother has the choice to keep the baby or not and the father has the choice to not stick his penis into A. People without making sure himself that he is wearing a condom or B. A partner that isn't quite 100% clear on that she REALLY wants that baby. Partnerships are about honesty, respect and trust after all and if you chose someone who couldn't be upfront that they perhaps didn't really want a baby then you should work out those relationship issues before having a child anyway.
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:iconttfnjinx:
TTFNJinx Featured By Owner Jan 24, 2013  Student Interface Designer
No unless the father agrees to take full responsibility of the child meaning if the mom does nt want the baby then he has to choose whether or not to keep it himself or put it for adoption. However if the choice is dying in labor because of a disease or problem with the mother or abortion then the mom should choose since it would be her life at stake. That's what I believe. I do not believe the father should force anyone into giving up or keeping the baby.
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:iconchakatblackstar:
ChakatBlackstar Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2013
Hmm...this is a tough one. If he doesn't want the kid then he doesn't have to be involved in the child's life so he shouldn't be allowed to force an abortion. Stopping an abortion on the other hand is another issue. If he wants to make her go through with the pregnancy then he needs to accept all responsibility for the child as well as all financial issues involved with carrying the baby as well as compensation to the mother for her troubles, not unlike a surrogate.
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:iconwiffleball:
WiffleBall Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2013  Student Traditional Artist
The father should have a say in whether or not his child dies, yes.
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:iconmclandis:
Mclandis Featured By Owner Jan 29, 2013  Hobbyist Photographer
At that stage it's not a child, it's a fetus.
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:iconmelodymoose:
MelodyMoose Featured By Owner Jan 20, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
This kind of thing could be solved if people used their ability to communicate with each other. Talk about your expectations before sex and if you cannot agree on something, find someone else. We need to teach better sex ed if this basic thing is a huge problem.
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:iconsapphirezero:
SapphireZero Featured By Owner Jan 20, 2013  Student Writer
If the both partners were consenting adults, it should be considered.

The first problem I hear that it's the women's body, and she could do what she wants with it, which is true. However that is thrown out the window when that woman get pregnant from censenting sex and now has a problem that will get bigger in 9 months. Yet there are many scenarios in how this could go down:

1. The mother and father don't want an abortion and raise the child. No issues at all
2. The father wants an abortion and the mother does not. Issue
3. The mother and father both want and abortion. No issue.
4. The father doesn't want an abortion and the mother does. Issue

2/4 of these scenarios you won't have any issue saying yes or no to an abortion. Yet if one partner wishes to keep the child and the other doesn't? You have problems, it's even worse when it's the father who is opposed to it. Are we to say that a man wishing to be a father is a bad thing or to even say that he must just accept the fate of his child is to die without living?

The current system does not handle this well, at all. It puts all power to the woman and it leaves men as a sperm donor and wallet. All this in the name of protecting a women's rights over destroying or keeping a child she may or may not want.

I understand the need to protect a women's body, but there is also accountability. You can't just go around having sex and not expect things like this to happen, and I am still just going back to scenario 4. The current system says that feelings of the man are worthless to whether the child lives or dies. If a man wants to be a father, he better pray that the women doesn't take a pill, have an abortion, legally abandon the child, or put it up for adoption. The woman has all the power when deciding what to do with her child during the early phases of it's existence and the man doesn't have a say. That is not a perfect or even close to perfect system.

It's pretty much a catch 22 for this whole scenario. If we give women the rights to her body, we remove the feelings and willpower that a man has to be a father. If we give men some say over abortions, we force women to consider who they have sex with and how they wish to do it. This issue can not be sexually neutral, it's impossible to give both sexes equal rights over abortion.
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:icontrorbes:
Trorbes Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013
Are we to say that a man wishing to be a father... must just accept the fate of his child is to die without living?

Yes. So long as abortions are legal and women are granted autonomy under the law, there are no circumstances where her bodily domain should be violated simply because another person wants her child. This is not a gray area, this is not a situation where both people evenly share the burden; the father's necessary involvement in creating a person ends at conception. Any argument that he should be able to deny the mother's right to an abortion is simply admitting that you do not respect women enough to let them govern themselves.
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:iconsapphirezero:
SapphireZero Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013  Student Writer
So long as abortions are legal and women are granted autonomy under the law, there are no circumstances where her bodily domain should be violated simply because another person wants her child.

We are talking about the father. The man who contributed his dna for the conception of the child. One of the duties of a man is to pass knowledge and experiance to the next generation. It is also the man's duty, or at least wish, to reproduce and continue his line. Are we saying these desires are lesser?

This is not a gray area, this is not a situation where both people evenly share the burden; the father's necessary involvement in creating a person ends at conception.

True. I didn't say it in my original post, but I think the legal paternal surrender is something that the law should adopt and accept. Women should have the right to control their body, as much as a man should control what he cares to invest.

Any argument that he should be able to deny the mother's right to an abortion is simply admitting that you do not respect women enough to let them govern themselves.

If the only effect of having an abortion was just to herself and just herself, then yes. On a physical level, she is the one having an abortion. However she also has control over a man's wallet. The current legal atmosphere does not have it to where an abortion just affects the woman and her future, it affects the man. For she can demand child support at any time legally,and even ask for back pay if the child is over 18 and the father never paid a cent. So no, I can't trust women to do abortions when she can legally demand resources from the father, doesn't matter if the father wanted to be one or not, he is forced to pay by law for a child he may have no interaction with.

If the legal system had it to where her abortion only affected her, then I am fine with 100% control over her body.
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:iconwitwitch:
witwitch Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2013  Student Writer
How about instead, we have a new law?

For example, in Finland, a man has to ACCEPT or the DENY the paternity of the child. A woman can not force a man to take responsibility for a kid he never wanted. This way, he is basically able to give up all aspects and claims of fatherhood to the child, and the woman is left to raise it on her own (she can get support from the state is she is poor, and all public healthcare for children is completely free).

In the same way, a man should not be able to use a woman as his living incubator to spare him some hurt feelings.
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:iconsapphirezero:
SapphireZero Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2013  Student Writer
That's exactly what I am saying. In the US, we don't have that option. The US legal systems focuses not in the interest of the parents but the child. So if a man is found to be a father, that's 18 years of child support, and that's not even fair.
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:iconwitwitch:
witwitch Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2013  Student Writer
To be fair, in the USA a mother can't get the same kind of support from the government that a woman can here, so she needs the support of the father to get by.

This is only one of the ways that Socialism can actually help people have more freedoms.
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:iconsapphirezero:
SapphireZero Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2013  Student Writer
I don't believe the government should have any say in the matter of family. Women are very much capable to fend for themselves and their children.
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:iconwitwitch:
witwitch Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2013  Student Writer
Time is quite a limiting factor when you have to earn enough money to support yourself and your children at the same time as caring for them . . .

The government is not having a "say". They are not telling her how to raise her children. Instead, she has the option to ask the government for help when she is in a time of need.

Even a single mother with a good job isn't immune to bad circumstances. She could lose her job due to reasons beyond her control.

Having a public safety net actually gives people much more freedom in their lives.
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(1 Reply)
:icontrorbes:
Trorbes Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2013
We are talking about the father. The man who contributed his dna for the conception of the child.

We are talking about someone who contributed 50% of their DNA having the power of veto over someone who contributed 50% of their DNA, 100% of their mitochondrial DNA, and 9 months of actually carrying the immature human, at the very least. That's not justice, that's control.


One of the duties of a man is to pass knowledge and experiance to the next generation. It is also the man's duty, or at least wish, to reproduce and continue his line.

Yeah, but women? They just want babies because they're stupid and driven by their hormones, amirite?


If the only effect of having an abortion was just to herself and just herself, then yes. On a physical level, she is the one having an abortion. However she also has control over a man's wallet. The current legal atmosphere does not have it to where an abortion just affects the woman and her future, it affects the man. For she can demand child support at any time legally,and even ask for back pay if the child is over 18 and the father never paid a cent. So no, I can't trust women to do abortions when she can legally demand resources from the father, doesn't matter if the father wanted to be one or not, he is forced to pay by law for a child he may have no interaction with.

There are these things, called consequences. Actions typically have them. You blatantly exposed your sexism by demanding women be held accountable for having sex, then cry about men being held accountable for the same thing. Even if we're to ignore the context for why fathers are expected to pay child support, being legally compelled to hand over a portion of your income is far from being compelled to hand over your right to your own body.
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:iconkinoc-kun:
Kinoc-Kun Featured By Owner Jan 31, 2013  Hobbyist Photographer
Adoption is always an option?
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:icontrorbes:
Trorbes Featured By Owner Jan 31, 2013
And if reality allowed men to adopt fetuses, this wouldn't be as much of an issue. But it's not, and forcing a woman to serve as an incubator just so someone else can have a child is not only inhumane, but horrifically misogynistic.
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:iconkinoc-kun:
Kinoc-Kun Featured By Owner Jan 31, 2013  Hobbyist Photographer
A woman should not be "forced" to do anything, but as you said in a previous post "we must accept consequences for our actions." Tell me, why should women be given a way out of the responibility of a child but men should not be given a way out of things like child support and alomony? It takes two people to have sex, two people have consequences to face. Two voices not only should be heard, but MUST be heard for it to be even slightly fair.
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:icontrorbes:
Trorbes Featured By Owner Jan 31, 2013
Why do you believe I do not want a way for the father to legally opt out of child support?
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(1 Reply)
:iconsapphirezero:
SapphireZero Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2013  Student Writer
Yeah, but women? They just want babies because they're stupid and driven by their hormones, amirite?
No, I don't agree with you. I don't know where you come off thinking that women are fools or emotionally driven, but it's really sick of you to assume that that as a fact. Where did you even get such assumptions? and why did you assume them to be true?


There are these things, called consequences. Actions typically have them. You blatantly exposed your sexism by demanding women be held accountable for having sex, then cry about men being held accountable for the same thing. Even if we're to ignore the context for why fathers are expected to pay child support, being legally compelled to hand over a portion of your income is far from being compelled to hand over your right to your own body.

Every person should be held accountable for the choices they make. If a man wants to remove himself from financially and emotionally investing in a child, he will not have the right to change his mind down the road when he feels like it. The same option goes for women, if she aborts for personal reasons and changes her mind, it's her loss on having a kid. I don't understand why you are opposed to legal paternal surrender, it allows women to have 100% control over their bodies and men 100% control over what they wish to invest.

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:iconblackpoppies:
blackpoppies Featured By Owner Jan 18, 2013  Hobbyist Photographer
It's a touchy subject and I wouldn't want to suggest a solution, but the current state of affairs make me a little uncomfortable. While I wouldn't want a man to have control over my pregnancy, given the physical effects on me would be greater, but I also wouldn't be comfortable about making a decision on abortion without the consent of the father.

Men are in a very difficult position here. Women have the ability to sabotage birth control and land a man with a baby that he didn't want and thought he was taking the necessary precautions to avoid. Men can be landed with the financial costs of a child that they weren't responsible for. Men often suffer the emotional costs of abortion, too - you could argue that it has a greater effect on women, but nonetheless it must be traumatic to have a potential child taken away from him without his consent or knowledge.

As I said, it's difficult and I wouldn't like to suggest a solution, but the current state of things is wrong and I think women have a responsibility to remember the opinions and feelings of the father when making these kinds of decisions.
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:icongalacticgoat:
GalacticGoat Featured By Owner Jan 16, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
No. I think he should be able to say his piece but when it comes down to it her body is in quite a bit of peril during pregnancy and could easily suffer permanent physical damage (or in some cases she could even die). Shit happens to him. Therefore her word is law and he just has to deal.

This isn't about opinions vs. opinion, its about one person's physical trial vs. someone losing genetic material he can easily replicate because men can produce babies their entire life.
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:iconsheepy94:
Sheepy94 Featured By Owner Jan 16, 2013  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
It's not his uterus. If he really wanted a child, he would've stuck his dick in someone else.
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:iconmoofactory:
moofactory Featured By Owner Jan 16, 2013
As far as the father goes.
I think the mother has the right to choose...
However if there is a disagreement over the choice then the full responsibility
of that choice should fall squarely on the mother.

eg:
Choosing to have the baby and the father doesn't want it.
Child support is null and void. By going ahead with the pregnancy against the fathers wishes.
The father should be able to opt out.

Choosing an abortion,
This is where I think that its up to the mother and the father looses out.
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:iconcybereaglewarrior:
CyberEagleWarrior Featured By Owner Jan 15, 2013  Student Interface Designer
I think the person who's actually carrying the child should make the decision as to whether she wants to keep or terminate.
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:iconsonrouge:
sonrouge Featured By Owner Jan 15, 2013
Funny how no one but the woman is viewed to have a right to a say regarding abortion...yet in regards to gun ownership, everyone but the gun owner has a right to a say.
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:icontrorbes:
Trorbes Featured By Owner Jan 16, 2013
Leave it to you to believe individual autonomy to be less important than material ownership.
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:iconsonrouge:
sonrouge Featured By Owner Jan 16, 2013
Leave it to you to miss my point, as usual. I'm saying people don't apply the same standard to the same situation.
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:iconmacker33:
macker33 Featured By Owner Jan 15, 2013  Student Traditional Artist
Abortion is murder.
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:iconbetweenskill:
BetweenSkill Featured By Owner Jan 16, 2013  Student Writer
Yes killing a small cluster of cells that has a surprsingly large chance of not making it the size and shape of an embryo is murder
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:iconmeanus:
meanus Featured By Owner Jan 20, 2013
why not kill yourself, you are just a large cluster of cells?
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:iconmacker33:
macker33 Featured By Owner Jan 16, 2013  Student Traditional Artist
life has a size?
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:iconbetweenskill:
BetweenSkill Featured By Owner Jan 16, 2013  Student Writer
Life and human are two different things. Look at the quality of the child's or mother's life. And anyways it's nothing for anyone to discuss except for the mother and father. No one else has any business in what happens between them and their unborn child, who isn't even a fetus yet, and very rarely is.
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:iconmacker33:
macker33 Featured By Owner Jan 17, 2013  Student Traditional Artist
I cant understand ye people, you justify what you want to do any way ye can.

ye=plural of you
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:iconbetweenskill:
BetweenSkill Featured By Owner Jan 17, 2013  Student Writer
Says the spiteful Irish Catholic who thinks unbaptized babies deserve to burn in hell for eternity because of some myth of original sin. hmm....
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:iconmacker33:
macker33 Featured By Owner Jan 18, 2013  Student Traditional Artist
Who or what i am is of no consequence. You claim to have womens best interests at heart by supporting death on demand.

But i am more concern for these women than you are.
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:iconbetweenskill:
BetweenSkill Featured By Owner Jan 18, 2013  Student Writer
No you are not. It is simple. I believe a women should have the right to choose. It isn't a means of easy birth control, but instead a way to "fix a mistake" especially if that person cannot afford that child. Or what if the woman is raped? Or a 12 year old forced to be incestual with her cousin? Or if the child is guaranteed to go into the foster care system? Or live in the streets? Or if the mother's health and or life is at risk?

Being Catholic does not mean you have to be devoid of pity or any humanitarian sense. If you are so concerned about "helping" them then back off. It is no place for a man to tell a woman what to do with her body, especially one that has no relation to her.
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(1 Reply)
:iconlibegon:
Libegon Featured By Owner Jan 13, 2013
I don't think it's fair to force the woman into abortion. There was a sort of similar thing here or maybe on the Complaints forum about a man who owed 100.000$ in child support, including taxes, from having 9 children or something, from what I remember. Of course, you can't stop people from having children.

In the case of abortion, it depends. I don't think it should be legal to force a woman to have or not have an abortion, after all, it is her choice. I think that it depends on the situation.

If the child was planned, and the parents get divorced, the father should have to pay.

However, if the child was an "accident", however it happened, it should depend on whether or not the mother wants to keep the child. If the mother decides to keep the child, even though the father is against it, the father should not have to pay child support. The main problem with this, though, is that the father would have to somehow prove he didn't want the mother to have the child, otherwise there might be legal problems with mothers suing over the fathers of their children not paying child support, even though he didn't want her to have the child.
Also, if the mother cannot get an abortion for whatever reason, if she decided to keep the child, even though the father didn't want a child, he shouldn't have to pay child support. If the mother decides to put the child up for adoption, the father should have to pay part of the costs for that, and maybe for things like hospital bills.
If the mother decides to get an abortion, the father should pay at least pay part of it.
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:iconstaple-salad:
staple-salad Featured By Owner Jan 13, 2013
Ideally I think the father should have some say as long as the pair are a recognized couple (not a one night stand, etc) because I think men deserve reproductive rights as well. But pregnancy takes such a toll on the woman and there are enough abusive fuckers out there that it ultimately has to be left solely to the woman out of necessity.

Maybe when we can grow embryos to term in jars we can finally make reproductive rights more equal. But as it stands right now they have to rely primarily on the woman just because of biology.
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:iconkiwi-punch:
Kiwi-Punch Featured By Owner Jan 13, 2013  Student Digital Artist
No, no, no. It's the woman's body; therefore, it is the woman's decision.
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:iconmeanus:
meanus Featured By Owner Jan 20, 2013
if she is worried about her body, how did she get knocked up in the first place?
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