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December 29, 2012
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School is a factory

:iconrabbit-eye:
Rabbit-EYE Featured By Owner Dec 29, 2012
I know this is probably riddled with errors, so I please ask you to point out anything wrong with what I am saying. But please, don't be an ass about it. :heart:

School is there for the country, not you. We go there, because they wanna make geniuses, and intellectuals. I mean, people say education is important. And when I ask "why?", I obviously get the reply; "to get into college, silly!".
Now, why does college demand I need these things? Well, that's obvious, to weed out the "dropouts". People who don't go to college tend to have horrible jobs, or worse- no jobs at all.

And now, seeing as we are in this recession, it's even worse. People are busting their humps, swallowing mass amounts of Alegebra, Science, and whatever so they can survive. That concept is just... ugh. The difference between you living a successful life, or you being a wino on the street all comes down to how well you studied Shakespeare and Pythagoras' theorem. And I won't even mention how pointless most of it is to you. I mean, if you wanna be an engineer, you gotta know math. But why Shakespeare? Or if you wanna be a language teacher, why maths? Or American History?
You don't, do you?

Also, I read a few places, that homework is pointless. Apparently, giving it to a under-14 year old, damages their desire to learn.

Like I said, it's not there so you can be an artist, or an accountant, or a computer genius-whiz. It's there so that (insert country here) can have as many geniuses and what not as possible, is it not? And the worst part, is that it fails fabulously. I mean, back when I was a tyke, I loved math, english, and learning in general. I read encyclopedias in my spare time, at the age of eight, for crying out loud.

School was great up until, say... second class. We were forced to go through the motions, math, english, history of (insert country here), and so forth. And it wasn't the fun way, either. We sat there, motionless, as the jar-headed lug talked on for a while, until we eventually were set work. And of course, we were too bored to work. So we goofed off, ignored him, and talked. What is generally important about school for the average kid, is getting to see their friends, and lunch times.

Now, fast forward to age 17, and- Ugh.
Too long, don't read.

*School is there to make geniuses, not to help you get the job you want

*School sucks

*School fails for the most part in it's intended purpose.

*The only people who excel in school are the people who are genuinely interested, or at least have the personallity of learning the stuff, despite hating it.

Now tell me where I went wrong, and what I missed, if you'd please.
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Devious Comments

:iconhallowpointpaws:
HallowpointPaws Featured By Owner Jan 13, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
I would have commited sucide a LONG time ago if my parents didn't pull me out to homeschool me when they did.
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:iconjackmolotov3:
JackMolotov3 Featured By Owner Jan 12, 2013  Hobbyist Photographer
forgot to post this.

The next "mario savio" is born :D

He said the same thing responding to the words of Berkley university president Clark Kerr as written in his book "Uses of a university"

[link]
[link]
[link]

just some interesting history.

instead of the steps outside a hall somewhere, its on teh intarwebbings
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:icondashing-tophat:
Dashing-Tophat Featured By Owner Jan 10, 2013
I soooo agree with this.

I mean.

All they want is people to make money for them by getting the good jobs.
The other slower people who don't learn well, learn a different way, or people who don't want an education at all just get crappy jobs.

Or if worst comes to worst they're homeless! It just does not make sense why its so important.

And I know. An education is good to have but, I say if you want to learn it then you can learn it but if your not interested in learning something you dont want to learn then you shouldn't have to!

And the other thing is the becca bill.
I understand that abusive parents should be taken care of but not all parents are abusive. So if the child doesn't go to school for a certain amount of days I don't think they should be sent to juvenille detention for it. And I don't think the adult should be put in jail either.
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:iconstoneman123:
stoneman123 Featured By Owner Jan 8, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
You're kind of right. School is like a factory, if only in the regards that it attempts to mass-produce persons of identical education. All students are presented the same curriculum in the same fashion in the same setting, which works fine for some of them, but is not ideal for many more. Humans are much too diverse to "mass produce" effectively.

One thing you have failed to realize is that education is not to make "geniuses," it's to make competent workers. You realize that without education, we would not have anybody capable of designing or building the modern conveniences we enjoy, like roads, buildings, electronics, automobiles, and so forth. We need scientists to discover the laws of nature, engineers to apply them to an end, technicians and laborers to build them, businessmen to invest in them, and so forth. Don't forget the history of compulsory education, either. If children didn't have to go to school, they would instead go get jobs in factories in mines to help support their families, and then there would be a dearth of jobs for adults.

Now, one of the reasons we start children off on a general course of education and then allow them, as young adults, to choose their specific, career-oriented education is because the latter choice is of the life-altering gravity that cannot be trusted to children. If you grow up to be a linguist, you may never find a use for what you learned in High School algebra, but I'm sure plenty of linguists didn't know they wanted to be linguists until High School at the very least. Many people change their minds as late as a few years into college. If you decided you wanted to be a linguist after your first week in Kindergarten and only took relevant courses, you'd be in quite a pickle if you changed your mind later. You would have completely wasted your time, and you'd be going back into elementary level math courses alongside children half your age. A broad, comprehensive education allows for flexibility.

Homework isn't pointless, either. Practicing the material after hearing it the first time is an indispensible tool for retention. It's no fun at all, but anything worth doing requires an investment of time and labor. That, more than anything, is a lesson children ought to learn as soon as possible. You must include homework as part of the grade, too, as it separates those who realize they have to work hard to get ahead from those who choose to slack off, as well as forcing them to practice the material and retain it more effectively.
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:iconrabbit-eye:
Rabbit-EYE Featured By Owner Jan 9, 2013
Ah, Stoneman.

Glad to see you post, dude.

Now, I should mention, that most of the crap I said on that was mostly written on rage. Not a smart idea, but I am kinda suffering for it now.

Anyway, I see your points. I guess I am just one of those people who school isn't ideal for. I'm better of teaching myself the guitar, rather than learning via a teacher. I had a ukulele teacher once... Eventually, I hated her. She drained the fun outta it, with her damn Beatles songs, and such. She made it a chore.

I guess what I am trying to say is that the whole formal, and monotonous method of school education isn't effective against me. I can't focus in a class of any amount, while some geezer talks our ears off. I learn better either on my own, or if I don't like a topic (say, I am learning French. Rather than learning by listening to the teacher tell me to take crap off the board, I'd be better to be given the phrases on a sheet, and write them over and over. It's how I was shown to learn in kindergarten.
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:iconstoneman123:
stoneman123 Featured By Owner Jan 9, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
And I'm glad to learn I've got some recognition around here! You were the one with whom I had that discussion of the brony study, the hypocritical socialist, and other such things, yes? It took me a while to remember; it seems an awful long time ago.

I guess I am just one of those people who school isn't ideal for. I'm better of teaching myself the guitar, rather than learning via a teacher

Yes, that's why I agree that school is kind of like a factory. Some children can learn very well by sitting in a desk, taking lecture notes, doing homework, etc., but others do better with other methods, like independent study, in your case. I think it might be a good idea to subject children to a battery of tests upon entering school to determine what methods might be most effective. Unfortunately, I'm not to well versed in the field of educational psychology, and even without it, the logistics of such a system terrify me. American schools are already underfunded, these days, and implementing the new system would require a complete overhall, along with the re-training or additional hiring of staff.

I'd be hard pressed to think compulsory public education will ever be consistently fun, but it could at least stand to improve.
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:iconrabbit-eye:
Rabbit-EYE Featured By Owner Jan 9, 2013
I see your point. Carlin said it best. "It's never gonna change, be happy with what you got."

Wow, I am quoting that dude a lot lately.

Also, thanks for remembering me! ^^ You wouldn't happen to be a Less Wrong Contributor, would you? You sound like one.

And thanks for the info, dude.
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:iconstoneman123:
stoneman123 Featured By Owner Jan 9, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Amazingly, I'm not quite as cynical as George Carlin. I believe it may well change, with regards to our education system, but it will take a great deal of time, money, and effort, and we need it right now.

Anyway, what's "Less Wrong?" I don't contribute for them, obviously. Is that some internet publication?
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:iconrabbit-eye:
Rabbit-EYE Featured By Owner Jan 9, 2013
It is a collective of rationalists which donate to the singularity society and write articles on how to be rational and not fuck up.

Me writing this article, and the amount of blunders in it, for example. That was a major screw up.

You'd probably like it. Check it out!

Oh, and while I am talking to you, what do you think about the "Alicorn Twilight" rumor?
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:iconstoneman123:
stoneman123 Featured By Owner Jan 9, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I will check it out! Thank you for the recommendation.

I've not heard of this "Alicorn Twilight" rumor, but a cursory search reveals the offending Reddit post. I suppose it's possible. Hasbro is, after all, a toy company. They also included the bit about them removing Derpy from the show entirely, which, honestly, is the only decision I could see a major company making after the (totally absurd!) controversy surrounding her. Anyway, this "Alicorn Twilight" thing may be true, it may be a cynical cash-grab on the part of Hasbro, but nevertheless, it may work out. The writers of this show are a talented bunch. They may be able to write this in gracefully and consistently, while simultaneously explaining where alicorns come from. I heard one fan theory about the Princesses just being extremely powerful sorceresses, and "wings" being among the many persistent spells they kept active on their person. It may also be used as an explanation as to why Twilight is so powerful, despite the apparent lack of nobility. We'll just have to wait and see.
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:iconpokecat:
pokecat Featured By Owner Jan 4, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Bad schools don't make all schools bad. A bad teacher don't make the factalty bad.

What is bad that lack of funding can make a school bad.
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:icontwasdandish:
twasdandish Featured By Owner Dec 31, 2012
self knowledge, 90% if not more of what we learn is from our self observing, listening and actions. school help a litttle, atleast that what I think.
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:iconcolbatros:
Colbatros Featured By Owner Dec 31, 2012  Student Writer
Once, our math teacher admitted that none of the stuff he was showing us would ever help us in the outside world, that it was pointless. However, he said that there was a reason why he was showing us how to create random graphics that nobody even used anymore; to learn a new way of thinking. They wanted us to develop our logic, because most of the things he would show us required us to come up with a different way of thinking to find a solution to that problem. And it works, really.
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:iconrabbit-eye:
Rabbit-EYE Featured By Owner Dec 31, 2012
Hmm...
that's very interesting, actually.

But, surely there is a better way of doing so.
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:iconcolbatros:
Colbatros Featured By Owner Dec 31, 2012  Student Writer
There should be, at least.
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:icondevine-consciousness:
devine-consciousness Featured By Owner Dec 31, 2012
and kids should know that not everything you learn in school is true just like not everything you hear on the internet is true. so schools should make it clear that they dont know everything
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:icondevine-consciousness:
devine-consciousness Featured By Owner Dec 31, 2012
i heard schools were made by rockerfeller so i could see how schools try to pick what they want kids to know and leave out all the other stuff but its a good thing kids these days have the internet to search there hearts desires out because schools limit what you can learn there and are more beneficial to the more logical male left brain person opposed to the more creative kid who has a hard time listening to a class. kids are changing so schools should too
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:iconrabbit-eye:
Rabbit-EYE Featured By Owner Dec 31, 2012
You gotta work on your grammar, bro.
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:icondevine-consciousness:
devine-consciousness Featured By Owner Dec 31, 2012
i dont have to do anything ...
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:iconrabbit-eye:
Rabbit-EYE Featured By Owner Dec 31, 2012
You do if you want me to understand what you said.
-_-
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:icondevine-consciousness:
devine-consciousness Featured By Owner Dec 31, 2012
yeah but my grammar will get better over time just like it has gotten better since two months ago. but im not gonna go take a class on grammar im already out of highschool! unless you want to pay for a class for me?
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:iconstaple-salad:
staple-salad Featured By Owner Dec 31, 2012
If you're out of high school I would highly suggest taking the time to learn better grammar. I see a lot of people in the professional world not capitalizing properly and whatnot and it makes it difficult to take them seriously (since sometimes they look like scammers).

If English is your second language then great job and what you're doing is working well so you can ignore me. But if it's your first I suggest at least making it a point to practice things like capitalizing appropriately. :)
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:iconrabbit-eye:
Rabbit-EYE Featured By Owner Dec 31, 2012
-__- I never said anything about school.
If you wanna learn to improve your grammar, why not read some stories and wikipedia pages.
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:icondevine-consciousness:
devine-consciousness Featured By Owner Dec 31, 2012
i do that already though .. i just don't focus on how to make my grammar perfect. i mean i'm speaking a language and most of the words i type are written correctly. i just personally don't always spend all my time focusing on little commas and periods because they are not as important even the words them selves arent as important as the actual message. just like you can say you love your family but saying it is different then actually feeling it. language is great but i dont get rapped up in it and try to perfect it. most people who write books need someone to correct it over and over we are not perfect beings when it comes to language or logic. but im sorry and i have tried to make my grammar better and you are not the only one who has said such things so i do take the advice and i will try my best to write in a better way so that people can understand me. that is the whole purpose of language
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:iconrabbit-eye:
Rabbit-EYE Featured By Owner Dec 31, 2012
I guess.

At least try formatting it, so it doesn't look like a block of text. It will help you immensely, and it is easier than trying to perfect your grammar. ^^
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(1 Reply)
:iconnickkartha:
NickKartha Featured By Owner Dec 31, 2012
Instead of trying to contradict or support you word by word, here's a lecture by Sir Kenneth Robinson about schooling in which I totally agree to word for word. => [link]
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:iconnovuso:
Novuso Featured By Owner Dec 31, 2012
Kenneth Robinson is great. You should should check out this other lecture by him as well. [link]
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:iconcindarellapop:
CindarellaPop Featured By Owner Dec 30, 2012
I know several people with no college degree who are younger than me and have better jobs. I have a degree, am getting another one, and I make just barely above minimum wage. Could it be that a degree isn't a catch all for success?
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:iconrestinmotion:
RestInMotion Featured By Owner Dec 31, 2012
If you're going into math, science, teaching, law, medicine, business, engineering, etc...etc... You absolutely need a degree.

If you're going into architecture, art, music, acting, cooking, etc... You do not need a degree.
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:iconscnal:
Scnal Featured By Owner Dec 31, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Pfft. You'd be amazed by how much regulations architects need to follow. A book on fire-related regulations alone will probably be the size of a phone book. Then there's all the practical things you need to do, being even more than a phone book. The whole process of architecture is pretty damn hard too, for anything above a single house you'll end up making several rolls of design papers (1.5 sheets would probably cover a door, now consider that each roll probably has a hundred of them) and various design specs each being over a thousand pages each, never mind the modeling you need to do too. You need at least 5 years education for it for a reason, you can't just walk in the door and say "I play minecraft, I'm good enough."
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:iconnickkartha:
NickKartha Featured By Owner Dec 31, 2012
your absolutely right, due academic inflation, degrees aren't worth a damn. Toady, we see millions of kids come back home after college to resume playing video games. But a few decades ago, if you had a degree, you had a job. If you didn't have one, you don't want a job.
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:iconmci021:
mci021 Featured By Owner Dec 30, 2012  Hobbyist Artisan Crafter
"School is there to make geniuses, not to help you get the job you want"

Nope, school isn't there to make you, or anyone else for that matter, a genius. Arguably, it is impossible to create genius where it doesn't already exist in some form. School is there to provide you with several things -

1. Something to do with your time.
2. ideas for what you'd like to do with the rest of your life.
3. a basic foundation of knowledge so that you don't make yourself look like a dumbass every time you open your mouth.
4. an understanding of how systems work and how to navigate them successfully in order to accomplish your goals.
5. An understanding of social structures and how to interact with others in ways that will be most beneficial to you.
6. it's there to teach you the theory behind a chosen field so that you can one day pursue a career.
And lastly, #7. it teaches you how to be an adult. It teaches you that sometimes, you have to do things you don't like. It teaches you that everything is a process and you can't just skip over the bits you don't understand or aren't personally interested in because those bits actually serve a purpose and they aren't just there to torture you.

Note how "making you into a genius" doesn't appear on that list.

School sucks

School does not suck. School is what it is. It's a predetermined set of conditions that you have to find a way to meet. This is a concentrated version of what people mean when they refer to "real life." In the end, that's all life is. It's a set of conditions that you have to either meet or deal with the consequences of not meeting them. The difference is that in school, the consequences of not meeting those conditions tend to be far less severe than they are in real life.

"School fails for the most part in it's intended purpose."

Actually no, school itself doesn't fail in its intended purpose. That you're typin in a reasonable approximation of the English language is proof enough that school has, despite your bitching and moaning about it, succeeded in some measure. What's actually failed here is you. Your level of success in school is determined entirely by your level of willingness to work at it. If you're not willing to put the work in to meet the conditions necessary for success in school, then you fail.

"The only people who excel in school are the people who are genuinely interested, or at least have the personallity of learning the stuff, despite hating it."

Once again, false. The people who excel in school do so because they have an understanding of the simple fact that you can't go through life expecting to love every minute of it. They comprehend that if you want something, you will eventually have to do something you don't necessarily like in order to get it. They understand that temporary discomfort or dissatisfaction are just that - temporary. And, more importantly, they understand that they won't ever get to do what they want to do if they don't suck it up, quit whining, and slog through the shit to get to the good stuff.

Ultimately, I think your post here is motivated by two things - First, I think you've recently failed something in school. Or, you are about to fail and you're not liking the taste of inevitability. Either way, you're salty about it and blaming the school for your lack of success. Second, you're seriously misunderstanding or misrepresenting your level of responsibility for failing Algebra and Science. The fact is, it's not up to the school to make you successful. It's up to you to make you successful. School can be boring. It can be tedious and it can seem pointless. But if you refuse to participate based on the fact that it's any of those things, then it's your own fault when you fail.
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:iconnickkartha:
NickKartha Featured By Owner Dec 31, 2012
You've put this very well. But then again, there is a negative aspect to school. isn't there?
The labeling part...
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:iconmci021:
mci021 Featured By Owner Dec 31, 2012  Hobbyist Artisan Crafter
What labeling aspect? Schools don't label you. The people you go to school with might, but that's not the school's doing.
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:iconnickkartha:
NickKartha Featured By Owner Jan 1, 2013
The grades and the remarks that are given to us by the institution known as school labels us within society and restricts job opportunity, don't you think?
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:iconmci021:
mci021 Featured By Owner Jan 1, 2013  Hobbyist Artisan Crafter
Not really. The fact is, after you graduate from college, no one cares what you got in school. Even then, it only takes maybe five years for people to stop caring what you got in college. As long as you have a degree, they don't care how close a thing it was.

Besides, your grades are also something you're entirely in control of. If you think it's important to get good grades, then you need to be the one to make that happen.
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:iconnickkartha:
NickKartha Featured By Owner Jan 4, 2013
:iconclapplz: You've most certainly inspired me.
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:iconmci021:
mci021 Featured By Owner Jan 4, 2013  Hobbyist Artisan Crafter
Glad I could help.
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:iconnickkartha:
NickKartha Featured By Owner Jan 7, 2013
:heart:
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:iconstaple-salad:
staple-salad Featured By Owner Dec 30, 2012
You'd be surprised how much things cross disciplines.

Just think of all the stuff that engineers use biology for (photocells, robots, etc). All the math in art (perspective, fractals, layouts, vectors, etc). All the Shakespeare and language in computer programs (language words, structure, etc).
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:iconartificialphantom:
ARTificialphanTOM Featured By Owner Dec 30, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
School is 90% daycare.
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:iconmayjackson:
MayJackson Featured By Owner Dec 30, 2012
I agree! Half of school's function is to take kids away so that parents can work.
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:icondivine--apathia:
divine--apathia Featured By Owner Dec 30, 2012  Hobbyist Photographer
Daycare, as in 'early learning centre'? if so, you're correct, the only difference is the age group being taught. A good 'daycare' is not a babysitting service ;)


Here's a tip, if you're ever looking at 'daycares'.

The educator should know exactly where each child is at developmentally and have a plan in place to improve. Ask to look for 'learning stories' and ask for example of planning. While looking at the centre/ touring the centre, ask the educator why they are doing something. Everything should have had forethought and planning and a outcome.

For example, let's say the children are painting. If the educator tells you 'it's just for fun!!' Run, don't walk, away from the centre.

If the educator something along the lines of 'painting not only is an enjoyable and creative activity, but also develops a child's fine and gross motor skills. A large paint brush helps to build muscles in the child's arm and hand and increase dexterity and grip. Developing dexterity and grip at a young age is important because they are skills needed for writing.'

Hug the educator and never let go ;)
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:iconartificialphantom:
ARTificialphanTOM Featured By Owner Dec 31, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
I think learning is good just for the sake of learning. Knowledge is power. But the current public school system in the U.S. has a lot of redundancy and a good chunk of the teachers, at least in the public school systems of most large metropolitan areas, take more of a babysitting approach than an educator approach. I also think an apprenticeship type structure or work study structure would work better than the current college system, similar to the blue collar trades. There are some great teachers out there that are worth their weight in gold but ultimately it's the parents that need to instill the appetite for learning in their children.
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:icondivine--apathia:
divine--apathia Featured By Owner Dec 31, 2012  Hobbyist Photographer
See, in my country, I have to do 6 blocks of work experience and a block of community involvement before I graduate.

If I fail a block of work experience, I am immediately made 'at risk' and I am required to submit a 'show cause' letter.

If I fail one more block of work experience after that, I then get expelled. :shrug:
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:iconartificialphantom:
ARTificialphanTOM Featured By Owner Jan 1, 2013  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
That sounds like a good system.
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:iconthe-sky-is-up:
The-Sky-Is-Up Featured By Owner Dec 30, 2012  Student Digital Artist
I do find it interesting how when my country talks about how important school is, they say it is because we need to improve the workplace.
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:icondavidscript:
DavidScript Featured By Owner Dec 30, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
School is simply a tool for success. Technically, no one's forcing you to learn.
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:iconjackmolotov3:
JackMolotov3 Featured By Owner Dec 30, 2012  Hobbyist Photographer
they are forcing you to attend. If you don't, you'll be rounded up by law enforcement and brought back, potentially being charged with a crime.
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:iconkiwi-punch:
Kiwi-Punch Featured By Owner Dec 30, 2012  Student Digital Artist
Wrong. It's the PARENTS who take the fall for that. In California, particularly in Riverside County, they have a system set up that if you're caught truant and are in high school, your parents can get charged with a small fine for the first offense. Then, if the student doesn't have a job, the parents' fine gets double for each repeated offense. If the student HAS a job, THEY end up getting fined.
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