Reminiscent of what Carlin said about the US educational system:
"It will never, ever, ever be fixed. The owners of this country don’t want that...The real owners, the big wealthy business interests that control things and make all important decisions....They want obedient workers, people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork..."
Basically, those people think the rich deserve to keep all the wealth, while everyone else should be happy to make the rich wealthy and be thankful for any scraps they get. You should be more than happy to sacrifice and even pay out of your own pocket, to make someone else rich while you get shit.
Because that's what it amounts to, really. Whenever a business doesn't pay enough for their worker to survive to work, then that worker has to effectively pay to make someone else rich. They pay through giving up their health, comfort, and such, and often taxpayers also pay via having to subsidize wages so workers can afford to work.
And yet conservatives whine about welfare, even though we give CEOs and stockholders massively huge welfare payouts on a regular basis by providing wage subsidies so their workers can afford to live to work, while the CEOs and stockholders pocket the wage savings in profit. So just remember that, any folks who say you don't want minimum wage to be a living wage: Your taxes are thus going straight into the pockets of CEOs, as the public sector has to then handle what the private sector won't.
"Some people out there seem to think that if you work a job that is considered "unskilled labor" that you deserve to be in the shitter until you find a "real job". "
I think the thinking is today, that most of these jobs are done by teenagers working at home, or underpaid illegal immigrants, who, if complain just get deport, if the jobs are not shipped off to whatever country they came from in the first place, legally.
Then when you bring this up, once you get passed the "racist" accusations, you get into classist stereortypes about being lazy
Which more apply to the people pointing the finger than those its pointing at.
Once you get past that, the $10 tomato makes is appearance. the "$10 tomato" is the argument that if farm workers were paid living wage, as US citizens, tomatos would cost $10.
You could even show links that actual wages are such a trivial part of production costs, but it
"And while it is true that those who have studied longer and work jobs which require more refined skills should be paid higher, that does not mean that everyone else deserves to choose between food and medicine each week." Big myth. Most people in college study fields they won't use later on. They won't even retain more than %10 of what they learned. What they will do is spend $20k they can't wiggle out of for a piece of paper that lets feel superior about themselves. When confronted with this, the answer is more that "college is an experience", which translates into the real skills they've learned was "learning how to mingle with the upper class, and make connections". You also get the opportunity to join an exclusive club. Which means for most its nothing more than a finishing school, and exclusive club. Nothing more than classism at its finest.
In the US of A, we like to tout that we are a meritocracy, and that education and capability are key to getting ahead in American society. Under all our breathes we mutter the truth "Its not what you know, but who you know". In a four year institution, you learn to meet "who you need to know".
"There is more than just skill, education, and prestige that should determine pay rate. "
I think we need to re-evaluate what and whom we hold as "prestige" in this country, this is a big problem.
The real problem especially with large corporations is stock holders. They "own" the company, and do little to help run it, except bitch when they're not making enough money. They have a legal right to sue management, of which, work for them, if they think they should be getting more money out of the company. None of these people did anything except show up and buy a piece of paper that says they own part of a company. They have no vested intrest in its future, and can just as easily sell and buy a completely different company.
These people take far more out of a company that workers do. A CEO can easily cut worker pay, but cutting divendends will send quakes all the way down to the talking heads on financial programs, Like Jim Cramer's Mad money, bashing the company into oblivion, and potentially destroying it.
The problem soley comes that we only ask some people to work. After denying them a chance we blame the working class for the problems we made for them.
End the system of stock ownership as it is now, and give the dividends back into the pool of funds used to pay workers.
Jobs is just like supply and demand. Jobs that anyone can do (or be trained to do) generally pay less than jobs that are more specialized. Companies are competing for certain skills and if there aren't too many folk with that skill, then it pays more.
OK. What do you propose to be done for these folk not contributing to society? Give them a huge raise? That'll devalue the currency and just make everything cost more...their situation wouldn't change. What can be done?
Look at the wage charts, look at where the wealth is being horded.
The top keeps too much of the wealth, they need to lower their own standards of living, stop buying dancing peony's, and fifty cars, installing elevators to have access to them all... Stop building castles complete with private lakes and gulf courses.
The top hordes the money and doesn't share it down the pipe line. Yes give more to the workers, because these workers receive it anyway in the form of government welfare.
Also start building in the US again. Bring the factories back. Impose a 50-90% tax on imported items if need be. Stop making excuses why the top cannot do their damned jobs.
Yes, the job of the top earners in the US is to MAKE JOBS HERE! Not jobs in a 3rd world nation.
These are all terrible examples that have no basis in reality.
First, no one who makes $500/hour works six hours a week.
If you are choosing between food and medicine each week, that means you have no job training or education, you are a victim of your own idiocy.
A company most certainly doesn't not need workers at all levels to run properly. This is something an 8th grader believes. Cashier calls in sick, sales associate takes over. At corporations most workers can do multiple jobs, and the jobs are so simple there is an overabundance of people to fill them. And many times workers are not conducive to the company running well. Anyone that steals or treats customers poorly, have you ever been to a taco bell?
Everyone who ever works is investing their time, regardless of pay or level, the lowest tier workers are not unique in this way. And you can earn a longer lifespan by eating right and exercising.
First, most corporations don't have full time lowest tier employees, this is so the vast majority of employees don't receive benefits. You seem to think it's more challenging cooking fries than managing an entire shift of people, there's reason one makes more than the other.
You have no fucking clue how a business develops, and the scale of massive corporations that "exploit workers" profit isn't predicated on employee happiness.
Sustainability? It appears to me that the most massive and vilified corporations are not only sustaining themselves but they're also growing rapidly despite economic conditions.
IN REALITY, the person who builds the lemonade stand, and buys the cups, sugar, lemons, and water, should receive more of the profits. And corporations have these things called stock options, where when you put a portion of your paycheck into stock the company will match it to a certain point. You have no idea how the world works.
Once again living wage for a family of 3 is $44,000, that's $22 an hour. If both parents are working then a massive childcare expense is added.
While you may be a bleeding heart that's never actually had a job, I can tell by your primitive notions of how you think the world works, you have offered no real alternatives to the status quo.
Please tell that to giants. I worked for them for ten years and was never offered a better position. (oh, by the way, I showed up on time no mater the weather, used my own gear to work in any weather and took on task which weren't in my area of responsibility...)
Employers do not respect the workers. Minimum wage jobs are the majority of the jobs out there... To include factory jobs. (most factories in my town start at minimum wage and no benefits... Raises happen yearly for flawless performance which is made impossible.
So keep up with your arrogant ideals... When the brown shirts come knocking with pitch forks and torches. Blame yourself.
"First, no one who makes $500/hour works six hours a week."
While it's not common anymore, it happens. Frequently it's retirees who are experts in something or other. My grandfather was an expert witness for a petroleum company after retiring on pension (also not common). He got paid by the court case and didn't spend an awful lot of time on most of them.
"Cashier calls in sick, sales associate takes over."
Both of those sound like bottom-tier jobs. When the entire sales and customer service staff walks out, I bet you won't see buyers or sysadmins or low-level executives rushing in from corporate to take orders. You'll see someone rush in to board up the doors, or conduct interviews.
"Everyone who ever works is investing their time, regardless of pay or level, the lowest tier workers are not unique in this way. And you can earn a longer lifespan by eating right and exercising."
If you're at the lowest pay grade, you can't afford a great diet or time off to exercise. You're also probably getting treated like crap every day, contributing to depression which can exacerbate already poor habits.
"Sustainability? It appears to me that the most massive and vilified corporations are not only sustaining themselves but they're also growing rapidly despite economic conditions."
"Growing rapidly" is the number one sign that they are not, in fact, sustainable. It's not unheard of for a company to collapse under its own ponderous weight, unable to react to market conditions and at times blowing its load on executive salaries when they realize the ship is sinking.
"And corporations have these things called stock options, where when you put a portion of your paycheck into stock the company will match it to a certain point."
I thought we were talking about bottom-tier workers. Not just everyone gets stock options, nor a 401k, employer-matched or not. If you think companies allow those kinds of perks to people to whom they go out of their way to deny medical benefits and lunch breaks, you're showing that you're the one who actually has no idea how the world works.
People are so disgruntled because the world didn't work this way 50 years ago. Minimum wage was enough to support oneself, even if barely. You could take a second job if you had a family and still scrape by on one worker in the household. CEOs only made 20 times their average workers' salaries, rather than 200 times like they are today. The night stocker and the call center operator and the factory worker don't deserve a living wage any less today than they did back then.
Yeah people that make $500 an hour are so common....
I can tell you have never worked or even familiarized yourself with corporate practices. When we got slammed every manager including the store manager would work the register, your ignorance is so fucking glaring.
It's such bullshit that if you don't make enough money you can't be physically healthy. Can't go for a walk? Do an exercise tape? It's amazing because these were all simple to do. Have any idea how much carrots, cabbage, lettuce, cucumbers, green beans cost compared to chips and cookies? Chicken is 69 cents a pound whole, how much do you spend on a bag of beef jerky? These are just excuses that being poor means being out of shape.
Yeah I don't think mcdonalds, subway, or walmart are worried about manageable growth.
I know for a fucking fact walmart will match anyone's 401k contributions regardless of their position or hours. You're just ignorant, you have no idea how things work, you're talking out of your ass.
"Have any idea how much carrots, cabbage, lettuce, cucumbers, green beans cost compared to chips and cookies?"
Yes. Much, much, much more. As someone who ate well back when they had steady employment, but whose diet has gone to shit once she went on food stamps because it's impossible to afford to eat fresh salads and such any more versus processed stuff that's unhealthier but also actually cheap enough to afford within budget.
Not that I expect you to accept the facts versus continuing to regurgitate your myths and "LOL, it's easy, I know better than the hard facts and people who actually live this stuff" attitude, as typical on this forum.
The irony of the whole deal is that I actually LIKE eating healthy. I like whole grain breads & rice & pastas better than the processed stuff. I would rather eat vegetables and fruits and nuts than anything else, with chicken, eggs, and some seafood being the only meat I really like having semi-regularly. I'm not really into junk food other than very occasionally. But... yeah... no money.
You can throw all that bullshit about price of calories but you shouldn't be eating the kind of calories chips and cookies deliver anyway. Secondly I cashiered at a grocery store, you have to buy actual food with food stamps.
Third I lived the lifestyle bitch. I worked off a walmarts salary, it's not fucking hard to eat healthy on a low budget. $10 you get 1 dozen eggs, 1 loaf whole weat bread, 1 pound deli ham, and 1 whole chicken, that's breakfast and lunch for a week on $10
Addendum: Especially since ham, chicken, and eggs aren't healthy to begin with if that's almost all you're eating. Actual healthy eating would be mostly things like fresh fruits and vegetables, whole grains beyond just bread, fish, and beans & nuts.
And food stamps cover all food that's not prepared for you such as the in-store deli or such, so no, stamps aren't limited to just "healthy" foods (I'm assuming that's what you meant by "actual food"). So apparently you weren't a very well-trained grocery store clerk.
And lol blocked, since they knew they were proved wrong. Welp, posting this anyway, as maybe they'll be uncowardly and see it and learn some actual facts.
"The fucking point is dipshit that the reason these food are unhealthy is because there are too many calories in the fucking first place. Did you ever fucking think spending the same amount of money on less calories would be healthy retard?"
Did you ever fucking think that people need a certain amount of food each day to not be starving and useless all day, and it's easier to afford the sufficient quantity of three-four sufficiently-sized meals a day on a budget when buying processed food versus healthy food, retard?
Sure, I could afford, say, 3 cans of vegetables a day, and thus eating less calories in a healthier format. I'd also be absolutely fucking useless and sleepy and sluggish because 3 cans of food is too small of meals to keep me full enough to function 100%.
Actual healthy eating would require buying enough quantity to get the bulk (as well as the nutrients, protein, etc.) I need to stay full & energized, while still keeping the actual calorie intake low. Which is difficult to impossible on a food stamp food budget. Healthy eating involves shitloads more factors than just calories, dipshit.
Please come back to me when you actually understand how nutrition works. This is the second time you've failed basic understanding on the concept.
"And yeah I know how food stamps work because it says what you're allowed to purchase on the fucking food stamp."
Pretty sure you're mistaking this for WIC. From the government page: [link]
"The Food and Nutrition Act of 2008 (the Act) defines eligible food as any food or food product for home consumption and also includes seeds and plants which produce food for consumption by SNAP households. The Act precludes the following items from being purchased with SNAP benefits: alcoholic beverages, tobacco products, hot food and any food sold for on-premises consumption. Nonfood items such as pet foods, soaps, paper products, medicines and vitamins, household supplies, grooming items, and cosmetics, also are ineligible for purchase with SNAP benefits.
"Soft drinks, candy, cookies, snack crackers, and ice cream are food items and are therefore eligible items
"Seafood, steak, and bakery cakes are also food items and are therefore eligible items
"Since the current definition of food is a specific part of the Act, any change to this definition would require action by a member of Congress. Several times in the history of SNAP, Congress had considered placing limits on the types of food that could be purchased with program benefits. However, they concluded that designating foods as luxury or non-nutritious would be administratively costly and burdensome. Further detailed information about the challenges of restricting the use of SNAP benefits can be found here:"
Ok were done talking guy who says chicken isn't healthy. Trying to fucking tell me high protein high fiber diets aren't healthy.....
Let's see fish is 39 cents a can. Beans are 60 cents a can, you dont need to eat fucking nuts
And yeah I know how food stamps work because it says what you're allowed to purchase on the fucking food stamp. Maybe you come from a pudgy bastard state where ppl can get chips and cookies with food stamps
Yep, called it: "Not that I expect you to accept the facts versus continuing to regurgitate your myths and 'LOL, it's easy, I know better than the hard facts and people who actually live this stuff' attitude, as typical on this forum."
Must be nice getting to live in a fantasy world where you're always right no matter how many facts and trained professionals prove you wrong.
The fucking point is dipshit that the reason these food are unhealthy is because there are too many calories in the fucking first place. Did you ever fucking think spending the same amount of money on less calories would be healthy retard?
Calorie for calorie? The junk food is still cheaper. You also don't need a kitchen or utensils to prepare most of it. I'm going off the simple reality that poor people eat worse food and exercise less. The reasons are varied and range from being unable to make time to cook between school and work or multiple jobs, to depression, to lack of training or facilities. I had a roommate once who thought toast went in the microwave; apparently his parents thought boys didn't need to learn to cook. When I was in college I ate pizza every single day because I got it free at work and that was one less meal I had to purchase. They're not complete excuses, just reasons that must be understood if you want to have a chance of influencing people's habits and attitudes for the better.
When I was young Radio Shack was expanding like crazy. They were like the Starbucks of overpriced batteries. By 2006 they had gone through a few CEOs and closed 500 locations that were cannibalizing their own business. Radio Shack wasn't worried about manageable growth, either. That they are now is the reason they still exist.
I'll concede the point about Walmart. They offer a 401k to all their employees, which they recently changed from a profit-sharing scheme in which they contributed to retirement accounts without requiring employee matching. When you're making $8 an hour, 10 hours a week, good luck having anything left over to contribute to retirement. Per US law companies are only required to include employees working over 1000 hours per year in any pension or retirement plans, which equates to about 20 hours per week and would exclude some part timers. Forgive me if I assumed they were doing the legal bare minimum.
The calorie for calorie comparison is a poor one. You cannot deny that being out of shape is largely caused by consuming too many calories. So if healthy food costs more per calorie then you can spend relatively the same amount of money on a smaller, healthy amount of calories.
In my first hand experience a shift was typically between 18 and 33 hours so most employees except students would qualify for matching 401k contributions.
cashier: have you ever seen a self check out line? waitstaff: have you ever gotten food at Sheets? busboys: have you been to any fastfood restaurant ever?? cooks: cooks are skilled workers fruit pickers: most produce collection is done by illegal immigrants as mississppi saw, americans are not willing to do that kind of work, that's an issue that really needs to be addressed
cashier: have you ever seen a self check out line? Yep, and it's still manned by a cashier. waitstaff: have you ever gotten food at Sheets? No, I'm afraid I haven't. Let me guess, a buffet? Very likely, every single one of the employees there makes minimum wage. have you been to any fastfood restaurant ever?? You mean the ones notorious for using minimum wage employees? cooks are skilled workers Who often only get paid minimum wage. most produce collection is done by illegal immigrants... Who make below minimum wage.
If people weren't scum then self check out lanes could work, it's not an indictment of the company but of society
Sheets is a gas station where you order your food through a touch screen
The point is dipshit that at fastfood places people can clean their own tables, bustboys are as about as necessary as having someone pump your gas
Most real cooks have a culinary degree and make very decent money, I know I used to work in a kitchen, regardless, fry cooks that do make minimum wage are not an essential job because I don't need fast food to live
You have made not a single point I didn't about produce collection already
In Oz garbage collectors make about 50k a year on average (depending on the council), its not a great wage but its certainly above minimum wage. Cleaning public toilets is contracted out and some of those companies possibly pay minimum wage, but most of the cleaners I know get about $19 to $25 an hour.
To this, people usually respond by saying "those jobs should be taken up by teens or elderly
I laugh when people say this, when it comes to my job. It's physically demanding! Teens (what I've seen at my job) are slackers/don't do a proper job and elderly only get hurt doing what everyone else does easily.
I wish I got paid more. Hard to buy a small townhouse and a second car with shit pay.
snuffles11Featured By OwnerNov 19, 2012Hobbyist General Artist
I know better than to assume I'll be able to live off of my Target wage and be up to "middle class" level. If I didn't have my student loans, I think I could hack it if I didn't drive anywhere (preferably if I didn't own a car AT ALL), but it wouldn't be very fun.
Unfortunately, I DO have my student loans to pay off, so I'm still living at home like a lot of foolish college students who chose bad degrees. Not much I can do about it now except try to move forward. It's life. I don't need government handouts, and even if I had to live on my own, I'd do everything I could to stay off of them. (Though I'm not sure I could hack that with my loans.