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November 10, 2012
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Obama won so people will get fired. It's already happening

:icondrybonesreborn:
DryBonesReborn Featured By Owner Nov 10, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Do you agree or disagree with this?

[link]
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Devious Comments

:iconpunker--rocker:
punker--rocker Featured By Owner Nov 26, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
You can't disagree with this, it's just fact. People are being laid off off in droves, and it's because of the unbelievably high costs that businesses are being burdened with due to Obamacare.
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:icondrybonesreborn:
DryBonesReborn Featured By Owner Nov 27, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Not playing devils advocate, but what about the stats about unemployment is up? Isn't it true that if there are 2 people, they might take 3 jobs, and make it look like the economy is up?

I do wonder though.
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:iconpunker--rocker:
punker--rocker Featured By Owner Nov 27, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Well, that doesn't exactly have much to do with my comment. I was only referring to the fact that hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people have been laid of since Obama's reelection, and the employers have stated openly that it is because the added costs that Obamacare is placing on their companies. They can no longer afford to keep as many workers.
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:icondrybonesreborn:
DryBonesReborn Featured By Owner Nov 27, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Here's the real kicker, what if everyone was on welfare. The economy will crash for sure. You know? If the '1 percent' elite can't provide for anyone.
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:iconpunker--rocker:
punker--rocker Featured By Owner Nov 27, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I'm sure it's such a shame for the Democrats that we need rich people or they couldn't finance their ridiculous spending programs.
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:icondrybonesreborn:
DryBonesReborn Featured By Owner Nov 27, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I never met a poor person that owns a business.
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:iconpunker--rocker:
punker--rocker Featured By Owner Nov 27, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Neither have I.
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:iconmgonzales041090:
mgonzales041090 Featured By Owner Nov 22, 2012  Student Traditional Artist
Let me get this straight, especially since I just got back from a long trip to Kansas and am ready to start fuckin' with some heads.


President Obama implements a Republican healthcare program because Republicans didn't favor the Democratic healthcare program. Despite this, the Republicans had issue after issue with the Republican part of the healthcare program becoming law, and now they're complaining that the Republican part of that program kills business, but still disfavor the single payer system? My mind is just going @__@ right now.
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:iconsnuffles11:
snuffles11 Featured By Owner Nov 24, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
Wait, why were you in Kansas? XD
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:iconmgonzales041090:
mgonzales041090 Featured By Owner Nov 25, 2012  Student Traditional Artist
I went to visit my sister for a weekend. :)
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:iconsnuffles11:
snuffles11 Featured By Owner Nov 25, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
Oh wow. Well, I was gonna say... I live in Kansas and I love it here, but there is NOTHING special about it. :)
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:iconmgonzales041090:
mgonzales041090 Featured By Owner Nov 26, 2012  Student Traditional Artist
I didn't think there was anything special about it. Even the city named after Kansas is in fucking Missouri. That point aside, was a fun trip.
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:iconsnuffles11:
snuffles11 Featured By Owner Nov 26, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
False. KC in Kansas is still cool. :) We've got the better sports team, anyway. >D
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:icondrybonesreborn:
DryBonesReborn Featured By Owner Nov 23, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Republicans didn't really want this at all. I think it was stated, that they denied it was a tax, then it was a tax. I'm still wondering about that part. What about work requirements to get it. How long do you have to work to get any insurance? What if you are unable to work yet denied SSD and SSI? That's a whole another issue as well.
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:iconmgonzales041090:
mgonzales041090 Featured By Owner Nov 23, 2012  Student Traditional Artist
Work requirement? You're not forced to work. You only have to purchase insurance if you can afford it, meaning more than 35,000 a year. If not, you automatically qualify for Medicaid.
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:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Nov 22, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
The fact that the Republicans have been complaining about Republican-designed healthcare solely because the Democrats implemented it and "LOL Dems Bad", despite the fact that it only exists because they also complained about Democrat-designed healthcare, has been known for pretty much ages now.

And you wonder why I roll my eyes at the Centrist Cultists.
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:iconsnuffles11:
snuffles11 Featured By Owner Nov 24, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
If you rolled your eyes at them, we wouldn't have a problem. It's really the yelling and the cussing we don't like.
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:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Nov 25, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
1. I inherited my temper from my mom. If you think I'm bad, you should meet my mom and her side of the family.

2. You spend your entire time doing all the research and crafting up thoroughly-explained points, only to have them mostly ignored and unaddressed, bonus points if the person then lies you didn't give any facts or explain your point, and see what it does to your disposition and frustration levels. I find people treat me like dirt no matter how I behave, so I might as well vent some steam.

(And then add on that I get to deal with a whole lot of crap offline, too. My mom, in particular, loves to blame me for her own goofups, and my landlord is a lazy slumlord dick who threatens me with eviction every time I ask him to do anything that needs to get done in the apartment.)
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:iconsnuffles11:
snuffles11 Featured By Owner Nov 25, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
:iconnope1plz:
:iconnope2plz:
:iconnope3plz:
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:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Nov 25, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
...:lol: Just... :lol: So, I give a nice, calm, well-reasoned explanation of why I act the way I do and what my motivations are, and all you can do is give a smartass "lol nope" reaction which you know, like I said:

"[giving facts] and crafting up thoroughly-explained points, only to have them mostly ignored and unaddressed, bonus points if the person then lies you didn't give any facts or explain your point,"

And, well, like I said:

"and see what it does to your disposition and frustration levels. I find people treat me like dirt no matter how I behave, so I might as well vent some steam."

So hey, thanks for proving my point with your reaction, dude. Thanks for proving 100% why I don't waste my time trying to be nice versus just yelling and cussing at people.

Tell you what, when you folks stop treating me like dirt and ignoring/insulting my every attempt to hold a civil, well-reasoned debate, I'll stop getting frustrated and venting at you. How's that sound?

I know, inb4 asshole smartass response ignoring and refusing to address a single point I've made and then going, "LOL, but you're still wrong for not being love and sweetness to me even as I'm an asshole to you, LOL." Seriously, I don't get what you people want from me.

Why did you bother telling me I "shouldn't yell and cuss" if you were going to be an asshole to me the second I tried being nice and giving you a civil response? It's like, if you're going to act like an asshole to me every time I try to be civil and nice, then why exactly do you expect me to waste my time being civil and nice?

Seriously. It's just hilariously stupid. "LOL, don't yell and cuss, while I do the very thing that makes you want to yell and cuss!" :icondeathstareplz:
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:iconsnuffles11:
snuffles11 Featured By Owner Nov 25, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
You give a pathetic justification for treating most of us like absolute crap and then whine when I make fun of you for it? And that is your definition of civility? A passive aggressive few paragraphs filled with accusations of wrongdoing against most of the forum, and then a plea to understand your circumstances and that we shouldn't hold you to such a high standard because you need to "blow off steam"?

Your definition of a well reasoned debate is "I made an assertion and now you must prove it wrong." Even when we provide sources, you just say "nope, I have sources, thus you're wrong." There's no reasoning with you in any circumstance.

Grow up. You're what, a decade older than me? Surely you did SOME maturing somewhere in there? This is embarrassing.
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:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Nov 25, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
...:lol: You can't be serious.

Let's see here. Your entire post ignores and fails to accept and address a single thing I said in a civil and intellectually honest manner, and instead is full of strawmen, made-up fantasies, bad armchair psychology that pretends you magically know my thoughts and motivations better than I do, personal attacks, and accusing me of lying.

You also claim I'm wrong about the behavior of people here and how I get treated, while engaging in that very same behavior and engaging in that very same treatment.

And you wonder why I get frustrated and cuss and yell at people. ...and you also wonder why I call people stupid.
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(1 Reply)
:iconmgonzales041090:
mgonzales041090 Featured By Owner Nov 22, 2012  Student Traditional Artist
I equate their contempt for the healthcare law while rejecting the "s"-word option to being anti-abortion but being anti-contraceptive at the same time. They've become the party of contrarians, rejecting even their own philosophical ideals based on who it is that implements them. If John McCain won in 2008 and implemented the ACA, they would support the healthcare law (just the same as I might oppose it). If John McCain killed bin Laden, they'd give him credit instead of the "Seal Team 6 did it". @______________@

I'm centrist in that I think the healthcare law is actually good. Do I get the eye roll?
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:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Nov 22, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
Bingo. The Republican Party is, right now, the Party of Hating the Liberals. Well, and a side of Help the Rich.

And, no. There's a difference between centrists (little c) and the Cultists. Hell, I'm a moderate/centrist myself, I just accept that at the moment the liberals are putting on a MUCH better show as a general thing than the conservatives, unlike the Cultists.
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:iconmgonzales041090:
mgonzales041090 Featured By Owner Nov 22, 2012  Student Traditional Artist
You don't strike me as a moderate.
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:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Nov 22, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
Addendum: Well, and also:

1. Quite frankly, many of the leftists are just as incapable of having an intellectually honest debate as many of the rightists. They too ignore facts, resort to personal attacks, engage in dubious logic, and so on. Just the details change. (Let's face it, most people on this forum regardless of left or right allegiance are incapable of having an intellectually honest adult debate.)

2. Leftists are really, really bad about the Perfect Solution Fallacy, where they will turn down anything that gets them less than 100% of what they want, and attack anyone who doesn't agree with them 100%.

Net result is that even when I agree with leftists they still tend to give me a headache.
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:iconmgonzales041090:
mgonzales041090 Featured By Owner Nov 24, 2012  Student Traditional Artist
1. Gussie? Midnight?

2. You kind of do that yourself you know.

Net result is that even when I agree with leftists they still tend to give me a headache.

That's politics in general. If you're not getting a headache, you're doing it wrong.
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:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Nov 25, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
Also, this is a pretty good example of what I'm talking about: [link]

I once wrote up a very sarcastic post about what everyone here expects from me, which I should have been smart and kept a bookmark to. Basically, everything I say is wrong, all facts I post either are wrong or I actually didn't post them, everyone knows my thoughts and motivations better than I do, and I have to accept all of this on faith the second someone says it. I also have to smile and be nice no matter how much I'm insulted or attacked, and respect all opinions as true and valid no matter how flawed they are.
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(1 Reply)
:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Nov 24, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
1. Was more thinking of Psychro, Svataben, Pitch-Dove, and another left-libertarian whose name I'm blanking on (not Skullkey, he's normal) as the hopeless folks. Vision alternates between batshit crazy and slightly crazy.

There's more crazy leftists out there, but at this point, my inbox is turning into "Gee, how much dumbass shit do I get to respond to today?"

2. No. I attack illogical arguments, arguments that go against common sense without good explanations, arguments based on myths and/or strawmen, and arguments that go against facts without counter-facts presented. I have no issues with people who can disagree with me while still presenting an argument consistent with logic, common sense, and facts. There's just not many of them on this forum, as most people fall down crying and pissing and moaning the second they realize they're going to have to actually prove something.

3. Is it too much to ask that people are rational and use their brains? The more I discuss on this forum, the more I'm starting to feel like my ex-girlfriend was right and I really am just... smarter than most people. Every time I try treating people like mature adults that can handle a debate where everyone has to back up their arguments, points, and rebuttals with logic and facts, they disappoint me.

It's gotten to the point where I almost wonder why the fuck I even bother trying to do the research and get the hard facts and form solid arguments, because the other person is just going to go "Lol whatever" and ignore every single thing I say and link to. Bonus points if they then lie that I never post any facts, and only post unfounded opinions and whatnot.

Hell, I have one dipshit in a thread who took it up to eleven and not only denied every single fact I posted, but also denied his own article HE posted that he thought proved me wrong but actually proved him wrong because he didn't read it carefully enough. What's the point of being smart if everyone treats you like you're stupid anyway no matter how much hard facts and reality you throw at them, because not living in their fantasy world = you're stupid?
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:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Nov 22, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
Because the areas where I disagree with the left don't come up very often.

You can read my commentary in the thread on the Black Caucus, for instance. Or this rant against mainstream feminism: [link]

Well, and also the irony that the things I like about conservatism, things like fiscal conservatism and personal responsibility, the Democrats are actually handling better right now. (Which makes sense, since the Dems are really a center-right party.)
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:iconkhirate:
Khirate Featured By Owner Nov 21, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
Politics exist, so people argue about redundant things in conversations that go in circles.
>.>
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:iconfirenationphoenix:
FireNationPhoenix Featured By Owner Nov 18, 2012  Professional Traditional Artist
your a republican? woohoo
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:icondrybonesreborn:
DryBonesReborn Featured By Owner Nov 18, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
You're. You can also be a conservative independent or democrat too XD
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:iconfirenationphoenix:
FireNationPhoenix Featured By Owner Nov 19, 2012  Professional Traditional Artist
yeah thats true
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:iconndifference:
ndifference Featured By Owner Nov 13, 2012  Professional Writer
Isn't that just more incentive to explore a single-payer option? Why should we saddle businesses with people's healthcare costs in the first place?
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:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Nov 13, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
Tis the irony of the situation. The businesses insisted on supporting the party that wants the private sector to handle everything, then throw a pissy fit when we... you know... expect the private sector to handle everything.
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:icondebit:
Debit Featured By Owner Nov 16, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
In short, they are talking complete bullshit to the general public. If I make a claim that I want to handle 'everything', then this 'everything' includes healthcare. If I cherry-pick and refuse to handle healthcare, then either my claim is false or my definition of 'everything' is actually 'everything' as defined by me and this word is nothing more than a catch-all label.
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:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Nov 17, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
Ayep.

But good luck getting the conservatives to accept that even the private sector itself doesn't want the jobs they keep trying to give it, because it knows it either can't or doesn't want to handle said jobs.
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:icondebit:
Debit Featured By Owner Nov 17, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Too bad, United States of America (Asswipes!) is not Klingon Empire. :D

1. Unemployment? We the Klingons do not put up with unemployment. We conquer unemployment instead!

2. Jobs? Either give us jobs or the heads of your executives and board members will decorate the Wall Street!

3. Cuts and layoffs? Fine, but not until the jugular veins of your executives and board members have become severed.

4. Conservatives and right-wingers? They whine and snivel like animals. Torture them until they divulge hidden memories from the time when they were unfertilized gamates!
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:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Nov 17, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
I do like the way you think.
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:icondebit:
Debit Featured By Owner Nov 22, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
I have made an attempt at making a joke, while using Klingon Empire. I like the 'directness' of the Klingon ideals,

Deferring to the 'wisdom of the free-market' without some deeper thinking: Functionally the same as just bull-shitting to others, 'It is God's or Whoever's will.'

Once we cut the unnecessary rubbish, a politico-economic system must address at least the four following questions:

1. Who has what? (Also, who already has what?)

2. Who gets what? (Also, who will get what?)

3. Who controls what?

4. How the hell should we allocate the slices of the pizza known as the 'national economy'?

My general understanding of the concept of human progress/enlightenment involves going beyond just putting up with a heap of crap (or status quo) and asking loads of questions.
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:iconjeysie:
Jeysie Featured By Owner Nov 25, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
The irony is that we already have very solid answers to all of those questions, including actual good answers to #4. Just nobody in power likes them, especially #4, because "lol socialism" "lol class warfare".
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:icontempusnexus:
TempusNexus Featured By Owner Nov 13, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
It keeps listing the number of layoffs, but I don't see any numbers about who gets to stay. What percentage is being laid off in each business? Why have I never heard of any of these businesses? And how much would their salaries contribute to meeting the taxes? A CEO would contribute a lot more than a bottom-of-the-pile worker. I would like to know these things, before passing judgement. And correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't universal healthcare actually decrease the costs for businesses? Wouldn't businesses not have to give out as high medical plans?

I really don't know if I should agree with it, because I suspect it is not strictly an accurate portrayal of the situation.
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:icondrybonesreborn:
DryBonesReborn Featured By Owner Nov 13, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Good points. Yeah. I guess it doesn't list it. I mean business lay of all the time.
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:icondefinedeviancydown:
DefineDeviancyDown Featured By Owner Nov 13, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
The business of American business is business!

Not charity.

The taxes imposed by Obama care will put a lot of American business out of business.

If you can't afford to stay in business you close up shop.

Its that simple!
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:iconrestinmotion:
RestInMotion Featured By Owner Nov 13, 2012
Do business receive tax refunds?
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:iconfantasylost:
FantasyLost Featured By Owner Nov 16, 2012   Digital Artist
In case you might be interested, here are some links and highlights of articles (all direct quotes) regarding large and small businesses related to the provision of health care insurance under the Affordable Care Act:

[link]
What is considered a small business?
In general, you are considered a small business if you have up to 50 employees. In some states, this will include you if you are self-employed with no employees.
Can I get tax credits for providing insurance to my employees?
If you have up to 25 employees, pay average annual wages below $50,000, and provide health insurance, you may qualify for a small business tax credit of up to 35% (up to 25% for non-profits) to offset the cost of your insurance. This will bring down the cost of providing insurance. Starting in 2014, the small business tax credit goes up to 50% (up to 35% for non-profits) for qualifying businesses. This makes the cost of providing insurance even lower.
Do I have to provide health insurance to my employees?
The Affordable Care Act does not require employers to provide health insurance for their employees.
Do I have to pay more based on the health status of my group?
Most states, but not all, limit how much premiums can vary due to employees’ health status and other factors. Even within these limits, premiums can be significantly higher if someone in a small employer plan has a serious health condition. Under the Affordable Care Act, this will change. Starting in 2014, insurers won’t be allowed to charge more based on the health status of your group or the gender of your employees. There will also be limits on how much premiums can vary based on age.

[link]
What You Need to Know about the Small Business Health Care Tax Credit
Here’s what this means for you. If you pay $50,000 a year toward workers’ health care premiums – and if you qualify for a 15 percent credit, you save … $7,500. If you save $7,500 a year from tax year 2010 through 2013, that’s total savings of $30,000. If, in 2014, you qualify for a slightly larger credit, say 20 percent, your savings go from $7,500 a year to $12,000 a year.

Even if you are a small business employer who did not owe tax during the year, you can carry the credit back or forward to other tax years. Also, since the amount of the health insurance premium payments are more than the total credit, eligible small businesses can still claim a business expense deduction for the premiums in excess of the credit. That’s both a credit and a deduction for employee premium payments.

[link]
What is considered a large business?
You are generally considered a large business if you have more than 50 employees.
Do I have to provide health insurance to my employees?
The law does not require employers to provide health insurance.
Starting in 2014, large businesses (those with 50 or more full-time workers) that do not provide adequate health insurance will be required to pay an assessment if their employees receive premium tax credits to buy their own insurance. These assessments will offset part of the cost of these tax credits. The assessment for a large employer that does not offer coverage will be $2,000 per full-time employee beyond the company's first 30 workers.
The Department of Health and Human Services estimates that fewer than 2% of large American employers will have to pay these assessments.
Can I provide financial help to employees who contribute to their health insurance premiums?
For lower-income employees who spend between 8% and 9.8% of their income on premiums, large employers can provide the employees vouchers equal to the amount of the employer’s premium contribution. This allows the employee to get financial help buying insurance in the Affordable Insurance Exchanges at no additional cost to the employer. This means that previously uninsured low-income workers will gain coverage and their employers will harvest the improved productivity that goes with it.

[link]
Expanding the Healthcare Tax Credit for Small Businesses
Right now, small businesses across America pay an average of 18 percent more to provide health insurance than large businesses. While the insurance exchanges included in the Affordable Care Act will bring these costs down starting in 2014, we need to make it easier for small business owners to provide insurance to their employees right now. One important part of President Obama’s Fiscal Year 2013 budget proposal expands a tax credit that does exactly that.

The Small Business Health Care Tax Credit has benefited hundreds of thousands of small businesses since the Affordable Care Act passed in 2010. After listening to business owners around the country, the President is proposing to make the tax credit available to more businesses and easier to claim. The budget increases the maximum size of eligible companies from 25 employees to 50, proposes more generous phase-out provisions and simplifies the credit, making it easier to claim. It is estimated that if the President’s proposal were enacted, the tax credit will benefit about half a million employers who provide healthcare to 4 million workers in 2012 alone. Over the next decade, this proposal would provide an additional $14 billion in tax credits to small employers across the country.

These changes will help small business owners hire more employees and create an economy built to last. Take for example, Mark Hodesh, who owns Downtown Home and Garden in Ann Arbor, Michigan. He started offering healthcare about 15 years ago to attract and retain talented employees so that he could compete with bigger stores and to help address skyrocketing healthcare costs his employees were facing.

In 2010, after qualifying for the small business healthcare tax credit, he got back nearly $9,000, almost 30 percent of his costs, for offering coverage to 11 full-time employees. The money he saved helped him hire a new employee, and now, with 12 employees, his tax credit could go up to about $10,000 if the President’s proposal to expand the tax credit is adopted by Congress.
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:icondefinedeviancydown:
DefineDeviancyDown Featured By Owner Nov 14, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
Businesses pay taxes, then they get refunds of over payments of taxes. Just like the rest of us who pay taxes.
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:iconrestinmotion:
RestInMotion Featured By Owner Nov 14, 2012
Okay, then it is theoretically possible for businesses to be hurt by Obamacare. But then again, if businesses rely that heavily on their refund to survive, they probably aren't doing great to begin with.
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:icondrybonesreborn:
DryBonesReborn Featured By Owner Nov 13, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Well stated.
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