Why do conservatives love to blame the victim?


Jeysie's avatar
This is the other thing that irritates me about conservatives.

Lost your job due to downsizing? Clearly you were let go because you were a bad employee. It's never because you actually were a good employee, but the company had to cut somebody, and you either were the newest employee, or the oldest employee, or your job was just the one the company could most get away with cutting and foisting onto everyone else.

Unable to find work? It's because you're lazy, or not seizing every opportunity, or have a bad attitude, or lacking in skills, or unwilling to work beneath your station, etc. It's never because there are no jobs available, or there's so many people competing for each job that there's just too many people more qualified, or that companies are biased against long-term unemployed people.

Don't have a degree? It's because you're lazy or defeatist, never because you literally don't have the money or time.

Are you poor? It's because you're lazy or unintelligent or irresponsible or made bad choices. It's never because you actually work extremely hard in what are often physically and emotionally demanding jobs that just pay poorly, never because you or a loved one got ill for an extended period of time, never because a breadwinner died, never because there are no good-paying jobs available to your situation, never because your husband or boyfriend left you, never because the birth control failed and you got stuck with a child you can't afford, etc.

Are you a single mother? Clearly you're an irresponsible slut. It's never because the birth control failed, never because the baby's father died or left you.

For that matter, if you had sex without wanting a baby as a result, you're an irresponsible slut. Even if you used birth control, even if you're in a long-term relationship.

Unable to find good work? It's because you're lazy, unintelligent, unskilled, etc. It's never because there's no good work available, never because there's too much competition for the good jobs, never because you just can't seem to get hired at a good job even though you're not doing anything wrong.

And so on, and so forth. Basically, in the minds of conservatives, everyone has 100% control over every single aspect of their lives, so clearly if something went wrong, it has to be 100% your fault somehow. The concept that anyone could ever do everything possible within their power as right as they can and still fail is not one they seem to be able to comprehend. They also believe that everyone always has the same resources and opportunities available, so if you literally can't do a certain thing, it's clearly because you have a victim mentality, or are making excuses, or have a bad attitude, or etc., never because, you know, you literally can't do the fucking thing in question.

Why do conservatives react this way? Why can't they accept that a person has bad things happen beyond their control, or accept that certain things are not possible, and offer solutions that accept and deal with or work around the bad things and limitations? Why do they suggest unrealistic things and then insult people when they can't do the unrealistic things, and why do they insult people for failing due to things beyond their control? Why can't they even accept the very concept of "beyond their control"?

Libertarians are guilty of this as well; their entire worldview seems to center around the belief that workers and consumers always have full freedom, and thus can never be trapped by circumstances beyond their control. Or they claim it's the government doing the trapping, when it's actually the companies doing the trapping.
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redruM-110's avatar
Very well put. Conervative ideology seems to boil down to one thing and one thing only- helping the richest in society at the expense of everyone else.
SpacelanderRyo's avatar
Blaming the victim is like one of the top tactics of manipulators.

...But conservatives don't think that things are always in your full control. Most things are in God's control. Only your problems are in your control :P
Solum-Ipsum's avatar
You are applying a quite shallow generalization, though I don't accuse you of being e.g. primitive, since most people aren't clear with the original (real) meaning of such terms. Conservatism is originally about the conservation of human values (or virtues), though modern conservatism is obsessed with totalitarian regulation of private life instead, and tend to use the strawmen you quoted.

Modern economics are mechanistic, not organic. They are aberrated and should be reformed from the very ideology (worshipping an abstract idea of profit) they stem from.

Modern education, or public education is basically serving this l'art pour l'art economism as governed by its lackey politics, manufacturing obedient workers who don't question the legitimacy of the system, but are programmed to satisfy its self-serving requirements.

Modern age slavery is an unfortunate symptom of the abnormal authority attributed to economy and wealth, but overgraduation doesn't mean that one automatically gets a reservation for a well-paid job related to that individual's profession. He's a spare cog in the box until needed. I would clean toilets if there wasn't a better job, because I get paid for what I do, and not for what I've learned.
JooPe's avatar
'Conservatives' blame the victim because they are sadists, that's what happens when the dominant institution(s) preach obedience to a sadistic, genocidal and ego-maniacal sky-wizard. What frustrates me about liberals/leftists however is they often simply swing to the other extreme : hopeless masochism (ironically making them more 'christ like' then most christians). By this I mean they refuse to acknowledge the conscious hypocrisy and malevolence displayed by most 'conservatives', and give it the response it deserves. True benevolence means having the willingness to do harm/cripple those harming the innocent.
AlGideon's avatar
Conservatives disagree with the very idea of "victim," in this case. The word Victim is incorrect as it implies that all of these events are completely out of ones control and decision making power, this is wrong. While perhaps one does not have 100% control over their destiny, the very word victim implies that they are just unmanned ships drifting and being tossed about a wild turbulent ocean.

Conservatives react this way because assuming everyone is a "victim," becomes a costly business in which we have to fund everyone irregardless of if their bad choices in life led them to their fucked up life or not.
Jeysie's avatar
Thanks for proving what I said in my OP about conservatives being too retarded to accept the fact that yes, these events are out of a person's control.

Well, no, they react this way because they're too lazy to help people get back on their feet and deal with things outside of their control in a way that lets them get over it and eventually not need help.

And even in those rare cases where it is the person's fault, what does not helping them accomplish, if they don't have the means to redeem themselves without help? They may as well just continue being useless, because it's impossible to better themselves. For instance, let's say someone is poor in part due to using drugs. He quits them, but finds himself unable to support himself due to employers not wanting to hire a former druggie, or due to lack of experience and education caused by his drug-using years, and there's no help from anyone trying to get him into work or education, or even just being able to afford to eat. So why do you expect him to not just give up and go back to drugs?
AlGideon's avatar
Are they? You seem to be stuck in a dualistic world view that dictates that people literally either have absolute mastery of their destiny, or are just leaves in the wind. Some events may be beyond ones control but others are in fact choices and the consequence of choice, even if the consequences and risks were not fully understood. Like for example single moms, they chose the path and made the choices that led them there. To act as if their pregnancy and decision to have sex were just events that happened, like they are objects without agency and decision making essentially renders the concept of responsibility meaningless.

Is anyone responsible for anything?

Not helping, discourages others from making similarly bad decisions.
JooPe's avatar
"Are they? You seem to be stuck in a dualistic world view that dictates that people literally either have absolute mastery of their destiny, or are just leaves in the wind."

No, this is you. As usual, a conservative cannot help but self-project him/herself onto others.

"Conservatives disagree with the very idea of "victim," in this case. The word Victim is incorrect as it implies that all of these events are completely out of ones control and decision making power, this is wrong. While perhaps one does not have 100% control over their destiny, the very word victim implies that they are just unmanned ships drifting and being tossed about a wild turbulent ocean."

You are an idiot for assuming that every time a person uses the word 'victim' they say it to mean a person has no control whatsoever over any aspect of their life, as opposed to having no control over a particular event/circumstance in a specific part of their life.

Ultimately, conservatives blame the victim because they are sadists who worship a sadistic, genocidal sky-wizard, they enjoy really fucked up things like burning 'witches' and the inquisition.
AlGideon's avatar
No, this is you. As usual, a conservative cannot help but self-project him/herself onto others.

"NO U!" Best response ever.

You are an idiot for assuming that every time a person uses the word 'victim' they say it to mean a person has no control whatsoever over any aspect of their life, as opposed to having no control over a particular event/circumstance in a specific part of their life.

Good thing I didn't say that dolt. I said "... The word Victim is incorrect as it implies that all of these events are completely out of ones control and decision making power" I spoke specifically to said events. Don't misrepresent my words.

Ultimately, conservatives blame the victim because they are sadists who worship a sadistic, genocidal sky-wizard, they enjoy really fucked up things like burning 'witches' and the inquisition.

I hope I don't cut myself on how edgy you are... what are you 14? Great another angsty teen atheist. These people are not victims in the first place.

A victim is a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or agency. So, the victim of a murder. By and by, I never said I was religious. Keep knocking that strawman.
JooPe's avatar
"ood thing I didn't say that dolt. I said "... The word Victim is incorrect as it implies that all of these events are completely out of ones control and decision making power" I spoke specifically to said events. Don't misrepresent my words."

"While perhaps one does not have 100% control over their destiny, the very word victim implies that they are just unmanned ships drifting and being tossed about a wild turbulent ocean."

I didn't misrepresent your words, I merely paraphrased. Additionally if the word 'victim' has an absolutist interpretation in your mind, that is really your problem for not being able to perceive things outside of a black/white mentality. Dolt.

"I hope I don't cut myself on how edgy you are... what are you 14? Great another angsty teen atheist. These people are not victims in the first place. "

You know, I think I've been on this site for about 14 years, but nice side-step and making yourself look like an ass again by throwing out a completely inaccurate misassumption because you can't handle what was said. It is true that conservatives/christians have deep sadistic tendencies, as evidenced by past and modern behaviour towards others. :shrug:

"A victim is a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or agency."

Precisely, so you are admitting the error in your absolutist (mis)interpretation of the word now?

"By and by, I never said I was religious. Keep knocking that strawman."

As an '14 year old angsty-teen atheist who has been using the internet and deviantArt since he was born, yeah, I guess I will use strawman arguments...

Oh wait, that's what I frequently spot you doing. :\
AlGideon's avatar
Lol, Mr. Po, you came into this thread responding with nothing but misrepresentations of my words (Showing a poor reading comprehension) and then some nonsensical rant about religion which was little more then a childish strawman and genetic fallacy.

I didn't misrepresent your words, I merely paraphrased. Additionally if the word 'victim' has an absolutist interpretation in your mind, that is really your problem for not being able to perceive things outside of a black/white mentality. Dolt.


I apologize, I suppose metaphor does not exist for Aussies, my mistake.

You paraphrased poorly, in that you ignored my words and then dictated what they are for the purposes of your point. Again strawman on your part. I perceive things based on the meaning of words, the implication of calling someone a victim is to imply they have been wronged or that some external force did something to them. This is not the case in even the OP's examples where anyone can illustrate the myriad of choices someone made to end up say a single mom, or a in debt. The disagreement I have with you liberals is the idea that others who didn't make mistakes must be press ganged into giving free money to those that did.

Precisely, so you are admitting the error in your absolutist (mis)interpretation of the word now?

I guess dictionaries do not exist in Australia either.

The meaning of Victim is that you are acted upon. As in something happens to you. I disagree with the OP and Liberals use of the word victim, because it implies that the person in these situations had no agency at all. A single mom just happened to get pregnant, all are victims. A drug addict just happened to wake up with a heroin needle in his or her arm, it just happened without any consent.

You know, I think I've been on this site for about 14 years, but nice side-step and making yourself look like an ass again by throwing out a completely inaccurate misassumption because you can't handle what was said. It is true that conservatives/christians have deep sadistic tendencies, as evidenced by past and modern behaviour towards others.

I see, so in your mind, to be conservative is to be religious? That is a strawman in that it assumes I hold a position that I do not necessarily hold. But perhaps logic also does not exist in Australia either.
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Jeysie's avatar
"Are they? You seem to be stuck in a dualistic world view that dictates that people literally either have absolute mastery of their destiny, or are just leaves in the wind."

No, it's the conservatives who seem to be stuck in this worldview. And that's being nice and assuming they even acknowledge the leaves in the wind. After all, you're the one assuming that by saying I hate conservatives blaming the victim, that I think someone suffering from hardship is always the victim.

"Like for example single moms, they chose the path and made the choices that led them there."

So, my mom chose to have my father die from cancer? A woman chooses to have her husband or partner leave her?

Plus, in those cases where it was the mother's fault, I love how it's always about the woman, and never about the guy who chose to fuck & run. I guess we assume guys are incapable of being responsible?

And this of course discounts the fact that the child did nothing wrong at all, yet also suffers when the mother can't afford to take care of him and is given no help.

"Is anyone responsible for anything?"

Yes.

"Not helping, discourages others from making similarly bad decisions."

<citation needed> I mean, I know you conservatives love to believe this, but there's no hard facts that it's actually true.

Plus, not helping also discourages people who already made bad decisions from recovering from it and becoming respectable human beings again. And it sometimes punishes people like the children of single moms, who even conservatives can't pretend did anything wrong. I think the harm from that outweighs the tiny number of dissuaded people.

Plus plus, most of the time people not being helped didn't make bad decisions to begin with, so they're being punished when they didn't even do anything wrong to begin with.

Of course, this also starts veering into this thread: [link]
AlGideon's avatar
No, it's the conservatives who seem to be stuck in this worldview. And that's being nice and assuming they even acknowledge the leaves in the wind. After all, you're the one assuming that by saying I hate conservatives blaming the victim, that I think someone suffering from hardship is always the victim.

Actually by your own words you imply that all of those people are absolutely victims, Conservatives disagree on that front pointing out numerous areas where personal choices led them there. I suppose if we considered everyone to be mere objects without any form of will power to make any decisions at all, you'd be right... they are but victims of... something. But that isn't the case.

So, my mom chose to have my father die from cancer? A woman chooses to have her husband or partner leave her?

It isn't universal, again put aside your black and white thinking. As for the partner leaving, she did pick the partner. And to assume those are the only situations that leave someone a single mom is completely false.

Plus, in those cases where it was the mother's fault, I love how it's always about the woman, and never about the guy who chose to fuck & run. I guess we assume guys are incapable of being responsible?


We point to the women because she chose the man, she was not commanded to have sex, give birth or expect him to stick around. Women are not objects without will power, women do in fact have brains or so I am told... and as best I am aware, the latest science says women can in fact make decisions and rationally and logically think. Maybe you disagree.

And this of course discounts the fact that the child did nothing wrong at all, yet also suffers when the mother can't afford to take care of him and is given no help.

The Child didn't do anything, the child isn't my problem. I didn't chose to bring it into this world.

Why am I responsible for someone elses choices?

Yes.

What are we responsible for?

<citation needed> I mean, I know you conservatives love to believe this, but there's no hard facts that it's actually true.

You've asserted plenty of things as if they are self evident truisms and not cited a damn source at all. So pardon me if I flat out laugh at YOUR demands for citations.

Plus, not helping also discourages people who already made bad decisions from recovering from it and becoming respectable human beings again. And it sometimes punishes people like the children of single moms, who even conservatives can't pretend did anything wrong. I think the harm from that outweighs the tiny number of dissuaded people.

I see, lets give free money to every druggy, murderer, thief, fuck up and idiot on the planet. What incentive is there to be great? To do good? To achieve? To be responsible? Apparently you get a much better deal being a knocked up meth addict car thief with a few murders under your belt.

I don't think the child did anything wrong, I don't think the child is my problem.

Plus plus, most of the time people not being helped didn't make bad decisions to begin with, so they're being punished when they didn't even do anything wrong to begin with.

Of course, this also starts veering into this thread: [link]


<CITATION NEEDED>!!!!

Jeysie's avatar
"Conservatives disagree on that front pointing out numerous areas where personal choices led them there."

Well, no conservatives point out:

1. Things the person supposedly had control over which they actually didn't.
2. Things where they expect the person to have telepathy, precognition, or otherwise perfect knowledge of the situation.

"I suppose if we considered everyone to be mere objects without any form of will power to make any decisions at all, you'd be right... they are but victims of... something. But that isn't the case."

JooPe put it best: "You are an idiot for assuming that every time a person uses the word 'victim' they say it to mean a person has no control whatsoever over any aspect of their life, as opposed to having no control over a particular event/circumstance in a specific part of their life."

"As for the partner leaving, she did pick the partner."

So I guess woman are suppose to always magically know the future and know which partner will eventually leave them versus which one won't.

"And to assume those are the only situations that leave someone a single mom is completely false."

Let me put it this way: The only situation where you can say a single mom being so was 100% her choice is if: She knew sex makes babies, had knowledge about and realistic access to birth control, knew the guy was only going to be a one-night stand or otherwise leave her, and she had sex with him without birth control anyway.

"We point to the women because she chose the man,"

And the man chose the woman.

"she was not commanded to have sex,"

The man was not commanded to have sex.

"give birth"

The man was not commanded to get her pregnant.

"or expect him to stick around."

So basically, you're agreeing with me--we should assume men are incapable of being responsible.

"Women are not objects without will power, women do in fact have brains or so I am told... and as best I am aware, the latest science says women can in fact make decisions and rationally and logically think. Maybe you disagree."

Oh, no, I agree. Where we seem to disagree is that I assumed men also had willpower, brains, and the ability to make decisions and rationally and logically think. You seem to think they don't.

"Why am I responsible for someone elses choices?"

Because if you don't pay to help the child now, you will end up paying to help them later when they end up criminal, crazy, or otherwise incapable of being a self-sufficient adult. I could have sworn you and I had that particular discussion in the other thread, where you assumed that you were an island completely unconnected to and unaffected by other people.

"What are we responsible for?"

The things we have full control over, versus being expected to have control over other people's actions or things which are just forces of nature or "bad luck".

"So pardon me if I flat out laugh at YOUR demands for citations."

Let me put it this way. If you don't agree with my assertions, fine. But if you want to dispute my assertions or change my mind to agree with yours, "Because I said so" isn't going to cut it. Burden of proof's on you.

"I see, lets give free money to every druggy, murderer, thief, fuck up and idiot on the planet."

Murderers and thieves should be in jail, so nope.

As for the rest, we can let them die or continue being what they are by withholding help, or we can give them the resources to help themselves become something better. Your choice.

"What incentive is there to be great? To do good? To achieve? To be responsible?"

None, if you have no way to support yourself, and your bad habits in the past mean you now have no resources available to gain a way to support yourself, and no one is willing to help. Might as well just stay how you are.

I mean, seriously. You're a drug addict, who quits and finds you have no money to support yourself, no money to educate yourself, and no one wants to hire you because they don't trust that you're not still a druggie. Where's the motivation to bother, again?

"I don't think the child did anything wrong, I don't think the child is my problem."

Except it is your problem, because the child growing up poorly causes problems to society, which in turn causes problems to you because you presumably exist in society, unless you're typing from a hut on top of a mountain or something.

"<CITATION NEEDED>!!!!"

Nope. You're the ones who keep withholding help based on your assertion that all poor people are responsible for their messes. Time to put up or stop pretending you're not just too lazy to help and don't want to admit it. Us people being moral and helping others don't have to provide citations for why we should help others.
AlGideon's avatar
Well, no conservatives point out:

1. Things the person supposedly had control over which they actually didn't.
2. Things where they expect the person to have telepathy, precognition, or otherwise perfect knowledge of the situation.


<CITATION NEED!!!!>

JooPe


When that troll and you are done debating a strawman, please come talk to me.

So I guess woman are suppose to always magically know the future and know which partner will eventually leave them versus which one won't.

Make better choices in partners? Who could have foreseen the heroine dealing layabout was a bad choice to make a baby with?

Let me put it this way: The only situation where you can say a single mom being so was 100% her choice is if: She knew sex makes babies, had knowledge about and realistic access to birth control, knew the guy was only going to be a one-night stand or otherwise leave her, and she had sex with him without birth control anyway.

If you are not aware that sex makes babies, then that is more the fault of your parents then society. Actually it is her choice to do all of those things. For example, doing a one night stand, should not imply a long term commitment, not using the pill or condoms is also a choice, all the things you describe are choices that people make... with alarming regularity.

So basically, you're agreeing with me--we should assume men are incapable of being responsible.

Put on your big girl panties, you ladies can handle your own shit now. Whatever happened to the feminist spirit?

Oh, no, I agree. Where we seem to disagree is that I assumed men also had willpower, brains, and the ability to make decisions and rationally and logically think. You seem to think they don't.

Guess what, they don't decide if a baby is born. Remember my body my choice? Or are you unaware of Roe v. Wade? Well I am happy to inform you that abortion is legal now.... also Kennedy was shot and Reagan became president. Glade I could update you. :]

Because if you don't pay to help the child now, you will end up paying to help them later when they end up criminal, crazy, or otherwise incapable of being a self-sufficient adult. I could have sworn you and I had that particular discussion in the other thread, where you assumed that you were an island completely unconnected to and unaffected by other people.

If he or she commits and crime, throw them in jail. I don't have a problem locking up violent criminals. So basically I am to be extorted to give over money to people who made bad choices in hopes that their spawn won't also make bad choices?

... "GIVE ME THE MONEY OR YOUR DEAD!"

The things we have full control over, versus being expected to have control over other people's actions or things which are just forces of nature or "bad luck".

Which is apparently nothing I am guessing since you don't seem to believe, and neither do I, that we can have full control. Why even punish criminals? Maybe X dude was a murderer, but his mom didn't hug him... or hugged him too much? Poor baby! Give him some free stuff!!!!

Murderers and thieves should be in jail, so nope.

As for the rest, we can let them die or continue being what they are by withholding help, or we can give them the resources to help themselves become something better. Your choice.


Or we could just give fuck ups free money so they can be fuck ups and have free money.... Your choice.

None, if you have no way to support yourself, and your bad habits in the past mean you now have no resources available to gain a way to support yourself, and no one is willing to help. Might as well just stay how you are.

Why change? The tax man will bleed you dry and you get nothing. Be a fuck up and you get free money, free housing, free everything.

Except it is your problem, because the child growing up poorly causes problems to society, which in turn causes problems to you because you presumably exist in society, unless you're typing from a hut on top of a mountain or something.


So GIVE ME THE MONEY... OR ELSE!

Nope. You're the ones who keep withholding help based on your assertion that all poor people are responsible for their messes. Time to put up or stop pretending you're not just too lazy to help and don't want to admit it. Us people being moral and helping others don't have to provide citations for why we should help others.

To cite your words you said "And even in those rare cases where it is the person's fault..." an unsourced claim.

So time to put up or shut up... CITATION NEEDED.

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Unfortunately. :/
Conservatism basically, at least modernly means, that everything falls on yourself.
Jeysie's avatar
Yeah, they do believe in that myth.
DayanDeVarlo's avatar
Because generalizing is so much better.
That's all I have to add.
Sheepy94's avatar
It's not generalization when it's mostly true.
DayanDeVarlo's avatar
Most statements with the word "mostly" are heavily biased.
</irony>
Sheepy94's avatar
Unless they're true of course. You've obviously never watched Fox News.
DayanDeVarlo's avatar
I don't watch any sort of news cause I don't want to see government-biased, ready-made information. If you think what they say on the news is true as it is, well, good luck.
Sheepy94's avatar
Thank you for proving my point.