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Questions About Israel, Jews, and Zionism

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~Panpanther:iconPanpanther: Apr 28, 2008, 4:58:24 PM
Around the turn of the 20th century, Jewish leaders and international heads of state agreed that the world was faced with a "Jewish Problem," that being the lack of a homeland for the Jewish people. Long before 1948, many homelands for the Jews were proposed.

Theodore Herzl, one of the founding members of modern Zionism, made several suggestions, and even organized scouting investigations to various places in the globe to assess the possibilities. A whole movement, "Territorialism," was founded on the notion that a Jewish homeland must be found, no matter where. Among the prospects were multiple sites in both Northern and sub-Saharan Africa, in South America, the Orient, the far East, and even Canada and Mexico. And when his aim was simply to get rid of the Jews, rather than kill them, Hitler even offered Madagascar.

However, for reasons that blend sentimentality, theology, ancestral claims, and perhaps other factors both rational and irrational, the Jews held out for a tiny strip of desert surrounded on all sides by vicious enemies and barren wilderness.

If Jews had agreed to a homeland in some other part of the world, they could have gotten there sooner, and countless pogroms, other massacres, the entire Arab-Israeli conflict, and the Holocaust might have been avoided.

What were the forces that were so strong that they could justify such a sacrifice? Has the sacrifice been worth it?

And since Jewish immigrants to Palestine were so productive in turning the barren desert into a fruitful, modern economy, it can be presumed that they might have been at least as productive wherever else they settled as a nation. Which African or South-American region now suffers from the neglect of Zionism?

Or was Palestine the best choice? And if so, why?

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=silentpair:iconsilentpair: Apr 28, 2008, 5:18:39 PM
i'm sure the strategic location played some part. recent events will give you a good idea of how important we consider africa to be in general and madagascar - OY the humidity. you don't have to be a huge fan of the protocols of the elders of zion or david duke to realize some monumentally stupid factors were considered when picking the middle east, but oh well. the ship has sailed and no one wants to budge an inch so it hardly matters. nice thread, in any case.

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~WadoIchimonji:iconWadoIchimonji: Apr 28, 2008, 5:32:15 PM
I know there's actually a Jewish Autonomous Oblast in Russia. Unfortunately it's all the way over in Siberia - I think it actually borders Mongolia.

Well, there's religion for you. I hate to sound like one of my uni's hippy pro-Palestine brigade, but I do deeply disapprove of Zionism, if I understand its meaning correctly as the movement to created a Jewish land in the historical region of Judea and Samaria.
Essentially, as you pointed out, all this is based on religion and semi-mythical heritage claims, neither of which, I believe, are worth displacing the established inhabitants of an area. The belligerence on Israel's side regarding any notions of some peace settlement between Israel and Palestine, particularly when it comes to the two-state solution, seems to be largely down to the belief that it is rightfully their land, which can only be justified using the religious rhetoric of Zionism.
(Just to try and protect myself against accusations of bias: in most cases the Palestinians are just as guilty of this)

So yeah, there is a specific reason it needs to be in that semi-arid strip of land in the Middle East, rather than the many other available areas.

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=Sir-Pimpalot:iconSir-Pimpalot: Apr 28, 2008, 5:35:56 PM
"If Jews had agreed to a homeland in some other part of the world, they could have gotten there sooner, and countless pogroms, other massacres, the entire Arab-Israeli conflict, and the Holocaust might have been avoided."

Jews shouldn't have had to go somewhere else to prevent these things. Besides, it's apparent to me that Jews were hated by somebody nearby no matter where or when they were in history. :paranoid:

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*spcefrk:iconspcefrk: Apr 28, 2008, 6:04:31 PM
You make the assumption that the nations anywhere else wouldn't have the same objections middle eastern nations make. Granted, Israel was outright purchased, and as far as the 1948 borders are concerned, they have no argument whatsoever (and because the 1967 borders were a result of aggression against Israel, they are relatively indisputable). But had Israel been formed in South America, do you really expect Brazil and Colombia, to simply lie back and count the money they were given?

A whole heaping lot of what's wrong in the middle east has to do with the three Abrahamic religions not wanting to play nice with each other, but don't forget there are perfectly secular problems that have to be dealt with as well. The propaganda machine against Israel is partially about holocaust denial and more often about "injustices" and "war crimes" they claim against Israel -- both of which have almost no connection to religious differences.

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*spcefrk:iconspcefrk: Apr 28, 2008, 6:06:08 PM
I agree with you up to the point where Israel was legally purchased in 1948... The government in place could have easily turned them down.

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*CrimsonTigress:iconCrimsonTigress: Apr 28, 2008, 6:55:42 PM
To me, it was a no-brainer that the Jewish homeland should be Israel. The Jewish tradition and history of that place supersedes any cultures that came after. The fact that 3,000 years ago there were Jews there tells you something.

And, in general, the fact that the Jews have persevered for so long, defying all odds and then reclaiming the land that God had given them thousands of years ago is almost scary if you think about it. It makes you wonder just what or Who is behind the scenes. It certainly goes to validate claims by the Jewish faith.

To put a Jewish homeland anywhere other than this place is like putting the Vatican in alaska.

But, I'll leave it with this quote that I find to be incredibly indicative of the Jewish perspective, culturally, politically, and religiously all rolled into one:

"I am a Jew and a Zionist. For me the two commitments are one. Furthermore, I hold this to be the position of historic Judaism...I must firmly ask [non-Jews] to respect my religious convictions as I see them an not as they see them.--"Rabbi Emanuel Rackman

I find it hilarious that non-Jews with no clue have decided that "Zionist Jews" are not "real Jews." To me, that's reeks of a greater agenda as well as willful ignorance, which is the worst kind.

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`vest:iconvest: Apr 28, 2008, 7:26:03 PM
To me, it was a no-brainer that the Jewish homeland should be Israel. The Jewish tradition and history of that place supersedes any cultures that came after. The fact that 3,000 years ago there were Jews there tells you something.

While I agree with the sentiment, I'm going to go out on a limb and note the lack of longhouses, totem poles, and rain dance chants going about in my neighborhood.

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~brashieel:iconbrashieel: Apr 28, 2008, 7:28:26 PM
I've always felt that the whole "homeland" concept is fatally flawed. Not just for the Jews, but as an idea.

For my part I feel Israel was a bad idea undertaken for reasons I find sympathetic. At this point there isn't any way to undo it, but honestly just moving to the US and Canada would have generated a lot less grief for all involved.

But Israel was created, and given the alternatives I hope it continues to survive and I even try to support it to some limited extent. Still a shame that the best anyone could manage was a nation that seems destined to stay mired in a low intensity war with all of its neighbors for the foreseeable future.

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*CrimsonTigress:iconCrimsonTigress: Apr 28, 2008, 7:43:33 PM
I don't follow you.

You most likely have archaeological evidence of Native American civilizations in your area. There is no doubt that Israel has a multitude of archaeological evidence of Jewish existence during the aforementioned eras as well as historical evidence of a constant presence of some sort since the dawning of the diaspora.

In less I'm misunderstanding you (which is very likely) just because you do not currently see Native American artifacts in front of your house, scientifically and historically there is a record of such peoples. Nor does it mean that Native Americans do not exist currently.

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~Scarrl:iconScarrl: Apr 28, 2008, 7:48:32 PM
like putting the Vatican in alaska.

Italy doesn't exactly make the most sense either...

Jerusalem would make more sense for the Vatican as well.

This is the reason for much of the conflict. It's an important historical land for all Abrahamic peoples. Once upon a time Muslims prayed to Jerusalem, not Mecca.

The tendency for various people to conquer and claim it as their rightful possession is the whole problem here.

I'm speaking purely about the religious and cultural background though. I'm sure many people are simply pissed about being relocated.

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