People comparing gender identity to animal identity confusion, what do?


cloneditto's avatar
Long story short, after reading several forums not of dA, I came across people who try to compare those with Gender Identity Dysphoria (also known as transgender/sexual individuals) with identifying as animals.  Now, typically i find this argument more readily used as a way of mocking the idea of doing anything to confirm the GID of the individual, and also typically encountered among religious groups (in my case, Catholics in particular) but I will recognize beforehand that it is not exclusive to any particular group.

My question is this: I recognize there's a fallacy in the comparison of identifying with another gender, due to studies i've been shown in neurological identifiers being discovered in the last 5 years, but what is the fallacy of the argument?  How is this an inappropriate comparison and how would it be appropriate to debate against this fallacy (or is it only a perceived fallacy?)
A second, less important question, is if there is any difference in approach depending on the religious debater vs the non.

At this point, I'm considering this more of a lesson on logic use as opposed to trying to cause debate, but discussion on the subject after logic explanation is covered would not be discouraged, perhaps focused on other common arguments against or for GID that are fallacious.
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h-irsch's avatar
To be quite honest, as a transgender I do feel insulted by the idea that there are others, who feel their 'spirit' is non-human enough, to the point they claim to actually have wings, tails, etc, in order to demand they are a direct comparison to the transgender community.

Yes, some actually do claim they have wings and tails. How do they do this exactly? By using the phantom limb effect as an excuse.

And yes, I do think this 'Otherkin' movement is complete bull shit. Doesn't help that it started online within forums, either.
saintartaud's avatar
Pretty sure that the difference between male/female is not as vast as the difference between human/dog, so yes, faulty comparison.  You can't just fiddle with some hormones and end up with a dog-person.
skulkey's avatar
now you've done it.  all the sparkledogs will be after your ass, now...
saintartaud's avatar
IDK, whatever a "sparkledog" is, sounds pretty awesome to me.
skulkey's avatar
they're generally pretty ridiculous... www.deviantart.com/browse/all/…
saintartaud's avatar
So...it's like a My Little Pony, but a dog?  :o  OK, 8-year-old me is totally into this and wishes to purchase all the toys.
skulkey's avatar
well, it's very speshul snowflake stuff - people's OCs everywhere...  but whatever floats your 8 year old's boat. ;)
kaleeborn's avatar
Dude, gender and sex are the same thing...
cloneditto's avatar
Incorrect.  Sex is the physiological components in the hip/groin region, and gender is the brain's alignment from male to female.  MRIs of trans people show correlation with trans people's brains matching the sexual dimorphisms between male and female of the indentity they profess.
kaleeborn's avatar
There is no difference between the male and female brain.
cloneditto's avatar
I'd like to go ahead and cite some sources here that also have citations:
www.dana.org/News/Details.aspx… - I'd like to call attention to the phrase "But this fetal testosterone bath also makes its mark on the brain’s architecture, resulting in sexually dimorphic brain circuits."
cercor.oxfordjournals.org/cont… - start reading at "
Sexual dimorphisms of adult brain volumes were more evident in the cortex, with women having larger volumes, relative to cerebrum size, particularly in frontal and medial paralimbic cortices."
and lastly
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/artic… - demonstrating the claim I stated regarding matching brain structure with identity.  Now granted, there is one flaw in that study in that they tried to compare lesbian mtfs to straight cis-women, but the point about straight mtfs matching structures to straight women continues my point.  If there weren't established dimorphisms between male and female, this study would have been moot.
kaleeborn's avatar
Dude why do you want to defend these trans so bad.
cloneditto's avatar
Dude why do you not want to defend people so bad.
Somnusvorus's avatar
Otherkin culture came from an RP forum for "fairy people" in the 90s and came back into popularity five years ago. knowyourmeme.com/memes/subcult…

If it was a real dysmorphia it would of been listed in the DSM, which it isn't because of it's origins.
hannoth's avatar
even without biology it is a faulty comparison because gender identity is already a man-made construct, namely the expectations how you are to behave according to born gender.
Otherkin is different in that it is a way of personality/feeling through association in a very high level.
cloneditto's avatar
I'm not so sure i agree with your premise of gender identity being a man made construct.  Gender roles I can agree are primarily a construct we made to function as a society, and thus can change, but identity itself has some roots in biology.  Typically speaking, there's a lot of emphasis on the brain sex dimorphism that usually correlates with the identified gender.
Citation: link.springer.com/article/10.1…
Now admittedly this study gets the hetero and homosexual thing backward if you go with their identified gender rather than birth sex, but it's hard to argue that the brain's dimorphism is a man made construct.  The only thing I have to complain about the study aside from getting that hetero/homo backward, is they tried to compare lesbian mtfs with cis-hetero-women, rather than cis-lesbian-women.
Abstract-Mindser's avatar
Personally, I find gender identity a silly concept overall.
cloneditto's avatar
Why do you find it a silly concept?  I'm seeing others here who are saying it's entirely a human construct, yet that isn't entirely true due to brain scans showing appropriate dimorphism matching their identity, not their gene type.
True, gender ROLES i can agree are arbitrary and socially constructed, but considering it causes a lot of discomfort and/or self loathing due to physical body parts, I'm not so sure I could agree on it being a silly concept without more context on what you're implying.
Abstract-Mindser's avatar
I'm saying that my thoughts have been that the only thing that matters are the bits between your legs. 
cloneditto's avatar
Considering the degrees of distress that people experience, myself included, it seems rather callous to me to say that the only thing that matters is what's between someone's legs. I could maybe see it stretched to mean the source of the distress is partly caused by that, but even then that's not accurate as many find their distress alleviated with proper hormone replacement, much like running a vehicle on unleaded vs diesel fuel. Despite that stretch, i still doubt that was the intent and would ask you to take some time and consider if you might be oversimplifying, as most people would not adjust well to having their sex different from their gender (body vs mind).  There are examples I can point to regarding that lack of well-adjustment if needed.
Abstract-Mindser's avatar
I suppose context fails you.
cloneditto's avatar
Considering no context was really given, yes, it does fail me. Its part of why i phrased it the way i did, to attempt and evoke some context clarification on your end, rather than something that could be inferred as mocking.
Abstract-Mindser's avatar
I was saying in the context of gender identity.
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Princess-Amy's avatar
If someone wants to be a cat, let them be a cat!