Yes, I agree. Although, I'll share that sometimes, I find it a tautologous situation when I'm deciding whether I'm doing something for myself or because I was influenced by something or other external factor (like my family, my culture, education, etc.). I mean, who can really tell whether you do things out of personal choice as opposed to being influenced by something else? I mean, we are what we are because we were influenced by these things but I wonder sometimes if we can all be truly true to ourselves, sans the influence.
But then again thinking that way, like I said, is tautologous and leads us in circles, haha. I've been there and I still haven't found an answer
True, that kind of thinking can lead in circles. I guess the best way to do it is to think about whether it will make you happy. If the answer for why you're doing something is "So that others will find me more attractive" then it's probably a bad idea, because it won't be a choice for you.
We are not born the way we feel we are on the inside.
People wear clothes, accessories, piercings, tattoos, get nose jobs, liposuction and so forth for various reasons. Rather it's because they were bullied and want to escape that desperately, think it will give them a better chance at finding a job, they want to feel better about themselves, they want to express who they are, they love fashion and body modification as an art, doing it as a tribute to a lost one, therapeutic reasons, trying to become something they want to strive towards, trying to return to something they have lost, or were really drunk on a Saturday night and thought a tattoo of Lady Gaga on their ass was totally cool. So I think anyone can do as they wish with their bodies, but in plastic surgery, surgeons like tattoo artists should be highly trained in what they do and you should listen to your fucking doctor if they tell you they can't give you a boob job without inducing a heart attack (Kanye West's mother died trying to get a breast reduction and ignored the doctor who told her it's not possible considering her condition).
People with good plastic surgery you could never tell. However people with bad plastic surgery gets made fun of and mocked for 'being superficial' when the way I see it people are being superficial towards their own personal choice. This is coming from something with only ear piercings but wears tons of makeup and people are constantly assuming how unhappy I am because I happen to like drawing on my face.
I've already gotten a few ear piercing and often dye my hair, so I guess I've already modified myself. The colors I chose for my hair are often colors like red, deep violet, maroon, 'different' colors then the normal shades of hair because I want to be different, I guess. As well as I have plans in the future to get a couple of tattoos, small ones, and perhaps a few memorial pieces. And I'll admit that I have looked into breast augmentation procedures to even out my chest because (as they are now) my current bust is painful and effects my back and posture. So, yes, I do modify my normal self.
However, regardless, there will always be those who disapprove of any kinds of body modification regardless of beauty or otherwise, so I think that hoping for a day when it will be totally accepted is a lost cause.
Thanks for your input and sharing your personal experiences
Follow up question: How do you decide on the permanent modifications on your body? Out of curiosity it's because sometimes people get tattoos of, say, a favorite animal but then overtime they decide that it was an ugly tattoo. I know there are ways to remove the tattoo but that's such a toll on your skin (and your wallet).
Also, is being "different" part of what beauty means to you (more importantly, your beauty)?
No problem, I was glad to offer my views on the subject.
As an aspiring tattoo artist I know all too well how important it is to plan anything permanent like them and how distressing it is when people don't and just wing-it, because then you know they're most likely going to dislike it at some later point and that's disappointing as an artist (from my own perspective) as well as has the possibility to turn around and make me look bad because they’re not likely to have anything nice to say about my work now that they don’t want it anymore, had I done it.
That is why, for the benefit of the person getting the tat and myself, I've always made damn sure my clients have thought long and hard about their piece, it's something that means something to them and that it's not going to be a waste of my time, resources, their time and money. From my own experiences I’ve noticed that too often some tattoo artists will just do anything for anybody as long as it's paid for, but to me that's just treating it like business, greed on their part and I love tattoo too much to just think of it that way, so if someone comes in on a whim and just wants something for shits and giggles I kindly show them the door and tell them to come back when they're sober. That’s just how I approach it and if people don’t agree with my methods that’s fine, they don’t have to, I really don’t care. That’s me.
I feel it’s my responsibility, knowing the art, to take care of the best interests of my clients and if that means refusing them something I know they’re going to hate or regret, so be it. That might mean I have some folks walk out of my shop in a huff, but I’d sooner be known for giving quality service and care to people then a hack artist who’ll do anything for a quick buck. Plus if people are going to be like that then they don’t need to be in my shop anyway. Period.
Sorry for the long shpeel, but there’s no easy way to say how I feel on the subject of permanent augmentations to the body, and that includes mine also. Everything I’ve gotten so far (6 piercing in the ears so far) has been carefully thought out and so are the tattoos I want to get, as they will be about things I’ve felt/liked/believed my whole life and to memorialize people who have been my whole world.
While I find that I like to see people who are 'different', as in they aren't prey to trends or care about what's socially accepted, I can find beauty in many other things as well and don't just look at what's weird or 'different' for it. For myself, I like to express who I am on the inside through my appearance, so sometimes that may mean I wear something people might look at and think "WTF???" while other times I'll be completely neutral; depends on my mood that day.
SSPirateFeatured By OwnerFeb 3, 2013Hobbyist Traditional Artist
I actually greatly dislike body-mods. Minor things like piercings or tattoos don't bother me (within reason) but surgery altering your body for superficial reasons completely disgusts me. Yes, it's your own body and you can do what you want with it and I wouldn't stop someone from going down that road, but personally that sort of thing will almost always be ugly to me.
I also highly doubt surgically enhanced beauty will ever win over natural beauty.
Follow up question: What if you were faced with two beautiful individuals and both meet your definition of beautiful but one of them (you don't know which) had has work done on him/her, how would you interact with them?
Since I already have five piercings and a tattoo, my view might be a bit biased. However, I keep my natural hair colour because I think it looks beautiful already. I find those with certain body modifications to be visually appealing (and I say that to mean they willl attract my attention) however I'm yet to be attracted to somebody with facial piercings or tattoos or whatever. I think natural beauty is important, as body modification can only do so much for you. As an afterthought, tattoos that are skillfully done and piercings that appear to be well looked after would be more attractive than those that aren't, because it shows that the person has commitment and can look after themselves well. It also shows that they take pride in their appearance.
Thanks for you input I liked that bit about taking pride in one's appearance.
In the end, body modification is really just a tool we use to achieve the
Follow-up question: Do you think artificially-acquired beauty (that is to say, beauty achieved with any kind of body modification) will be more important than natural beauty someday?
To elaborate this question, I'm attributing body modifications to produce a unique and imaginative beauty whereas natural beauty stays as is, unique but not so creative or as imaginative (since you're not really going to modify anything anymore).
Well, first let's consider this. Would you say that make-up detracts from natural beauty? You don't naturally have mascara or lipstick or whatever. If that's the case, I'll put it with body modification for the sake of this argument. Body modification has been present in virtually every culture on the planet throughout humanity's existance. Piercing and tattoos are sometimes obtained as a rite of passage, to show that the individual has become an adult. Sometimes in history they are not considered socially acceptable, and you would notice the number of people with tattoos or exotic piercings (I use that as a blanket term for all piercings besides ear lobes) would decrease or move underground. Nowadays it's getting more socially acceptable to modify yourself and so there are more people doing it. Body modification goes through periods of popularity before moving underground again. It's kind of a roundabout way of saying it, but no I don't think it will ever replace the importance of natural beauty completely.
Beauty is subjective and everyone has their own idea of what will or does make them and others pretty. If that involves modifications, that's fine.
I intend to modify my body somewhat. I'm trying to lose weight, I wouldn't object to a boob job, I dye and cut my hair, I have 2 piercings in one ear, 4 in the other, I used to have nipple and labret piercings (but they are since closed, mostly not by choice...), and a tattoo. I fully intend to get more tattoos and piercings along the line. I think it's pretty. It's not extreme (I don't intend to get horn implants, braces, my tongue split, etc), but it's what I like.
I think it can be argued that modifications like piercings, scarification or tattoos are honest signals of high quality since they say "hey, I can tolerate pain and have things inserted into me without dying of a horrible infection!"
So theoretically some amount of modification should be considered equally attractive. Probably more so on males than females.
I would love to have piercings and purple hair and those great big earlobe ear tube things. But most people live in the real world and like it or not most people have to conform to society or fall by the wayside. When I no longer have to work and fit in then I'll do all the above but then it would look daft 'Punk pensioner'
I cant talk for everyone but I prefer Natural beauty because each of us has a unique look.
Now once you start having modifications like dying your hair making you nose smaller you are looking at others and going oh wow there hair looks good, oh I wish I had hair like hers e.t.c.
So rather than being happy with your body you now want to look like someone else. Which causes everyone to ends up looking the same. An example of this is the fact a lot of pop stars look the same because there copying each other.
people then think (mostly teens) they all have to look like these celebrity's to be attractive to the opposite sex.
So now we have a dull society that all look the same, which is full of people that don't realize how beautifully they are. Because there all to busy comparing themselves to over modified celebrity’s picture that have been air brushed ad modified so there not even a real representation of the person.
So We end up with a society that has no idea about looks who just copy one another and end up comparing themselves to one another and getting jealous of one another looks.
Rather than a bunch of people who are confident with themselves.
And that’s why I will always prefer natural beauty to artificial .
My sister once fell off her bike, rolled down a hill, and smashed her face into a pole and had to go to plastic to put her jaw in the right place and see to it her skin repairs scarlessly (had some skin transplant). I don't think she wanted to look like someone else when her face was disfigured.
Also you are assuming we were born the way we are on the inside. I eat mountains of food, however my natural metabolism makes me scrawny. I know some people who eat half the amount as me and twice my weight. I and my cousin were born with almost identical faces (so identical people mix us up) yet we have totally different personality, occupations, and out looks on life. People can tell that by looking at us because of the way we dress and the makeup I wear however if we both dressed the same people wouldn't be able to tell us apart or see us for who we are on the inside.
I find it strange that there can be natural beauty that involves unique looks. Beauty isn't well-defined to begin with and we only have our own cultures, instincts and beliefs to help us go by. In a sense, the definition of beauty changes as humanity keeps on evolving culturally.
Follow up questions: Does this mean no one is inherently ugly for you? Do you think the goal to achieve beauty by artificial means is tied to something negative? Some people who have undergone beauty enhancing modifications do so in order to feel more confident about themselves. Do you think this achievement of theirs is negated by the fact that they had to artificially change their appearance?
Hi sorry its taken so long for me to reply but I have been a busy trying to reply to the hundreds of messages I have got on the forums.
Anyhow her goes You said “I find it strange that there can be natural beauty that involves unique looks. Beauty isn't well-defined to begin with and we only have our own cultures, instincts and beliefs to help us go by. In a sense, the definition of beauty changes as humanity keeps on evolving culturally.”
Well to me that's the very problem people end up changing there your looks to reflect what society thinks is beautiful which only creates false beauty and in a few years society will probably change its mind again anyhow.
So I believe People should learn to appreciate the looks they are born with rather than trying to look like someone else (what society wants) , otherwise we might end up with a society who all look the same and wear the same clothes (which actually seems to be fashion company’s aim.)
Now when I talk about unique I don't mean people that claim to be unique because they try to stand out or people that think there above fashion. I simply mean people that don’t worry about what the latest fashion is or if they look like the models you see in magazines. I mean people that know they ain’t perfect or super hot but are happy with there looks. I mean people who when they go shopping simply buy clothes because they like them or there comfortable.
As for you Follow up questions:
Does this mean no one is inherently ugly for you?
I assume when you say ugly your referring to looks rather than the way people act. So I wont lecture you about how some people are ugly on the outside but have a heart of gold and how some girls look good but treat everyone bad even though teats what I have just done in a way :-P
Also your questions not an easy one to answer because if you count mussel changing diseases and horrible birthmarks over your face as things people inherited, then some people are born with disfigured faces so they might believe they are ugly (compared to everyone else) and decide to have a body modification to fix a problem a disease caused.
But if we are talking about people who aren't disfigured by a disease then no I don't think anyone one is born ugly!
I will now merge your last two questions into one as they kind of ask the same thing Some people undergo beauty enhancing modifications in order to feel more confident about themselves. Do you think this is tied to something negative by the fact that they had to artificially change their appearance?
Again this is a complicated question as it all depends on why your trying to achieve it!
If your involved in accident and have horrible burns or your born with a horrible mussel defect I have no problems with you having plastic surgery to get more confidence and I don’t think your being negative if you wish for this.
Alternatively if you lose you hair threw A disease and you want to wear a wig I don't think that’s negative. Now this list could go on and on but I hope you get the point if a disease or something has taken your natural looks away I don't think its negative to try and do everything you can to try and recapture those looks (note old age ain’t a disease and we should all accept getting old.)
However if your born with red hair and get bullied for it so you decide to dye it I think that is a negative thing and I think society needs to learn that everyone is beautiful and stop picking on people that don't fit there idea of beauty!
Side note If your born a brunette and you want to see if blonds have more fun I have no problem with you dying you hair to see how the other half lives. Or if you just fancy a change I have no problem with that e.t.c
My only problem is when people do body mods as they think oh my boobs ain’t big enough oh I don't like my hair color e.t.c and rather than learning that there beautiful in the own right they convince themselves they need to change to be beautiful and to me that's a hugely negative thing.
So like I said in my first post I believe everyone is uniquely beautiful and we need to learn to be great-full for what god gave us (are natural beauty) , rather than comparing our-self to model's, celebs or any other people we think are beautiful and getting jealous/ or beating our-self up.
Alternatively if you lose you hair threw A disease and you want to wear a wig I don't think that’s negative. How is that different from someone who is overweight and want to get a liposuction? I mean logistically, a liposuction is actually less drastic because you can actually BE skinnier naturally, bald people don't just grow new hair!
Also in Asia lighter untanned skin is preferred so women use a lot of skin whitening products, how is that different from wearing a wig? When naturally a woman can actually be lighter skinned by not going outside.
or a Japanese Yakuza members get a tattoo because it's a part of his culture.
A Russian granny gets some botox to reduce her wrinkles so she can look as she did when she was 10 years younger (as oppose to bald guy who wants to go back in time to when he had hair).
"Why is there such a premium on natural beauty?" Well firstly you'd have to define natural beauty. And secondly, its a projection of health. If a woman looks sexually attractive without makeup or a man appears and is physically fit without the necessity of exercise then its reflective of healthy, superior genes. And is seen as attractive to the opposite sex.
Simple enough ...
"That we, as humans who are intelligent and innovative, we can change aspects of ourselves" Niche attraction techniques work quite well. And yes we do. Theres always more than one way of attracting a mate. Body modification that adds some manner of positive quality to the body, if socially acceptable, and even when not, sometimes especially when not, its a positive attribute. That disposition is passed down genetically and body modification becomes more popular until its a cultural normality.
" Can't we be beautiful with implants or after liposuction?" well, yea, sure. As long as you're not ugly.
"If so, what would you have changed about you?" one or two tattoo's. I used to have a piercing in a ... delicate place, but the novelty wore off.
Hmm. Follow up questions: What do you mean by the novelty wore off? Was there a trend or a personal reason that this piercing was made? (if you don't want to explain it's okay, haha. I'm just curious )
And, for you, is natural beauty superior to other kinds of beauty? I'd like to know your position on the matter of an absolute standard beauty (if it were ever defined).
*This is considering that we always change ourselves anyway when something about us is a liability as opposed to an asset and this doesn't reflect that a person is fickle or unsure about his/her identity.
"What do you mean by the novelty wore off?" Its fun at first. And fun and quite sexy later on as well, but you get bored of it. Like anything, the novelty just 'wears off'.
"Was there a trend or a personal reason that this piercing was made? Ohhhhh, i don't know. I just wanted to have a bit of fun i guess. Personal.
"And, for you, is natural beauty superior to other kinds of beauty?" Well, it has to be. Beauty without aid from something other than your natural born body is intrinsically superior to the alternative. That's not to say that adding things to your body can't make you more beautiful than a naturally beautiful person anyway, though its rare. Its just that natural beauty comes with the implication that it can be built upon.
"I'd like to know your position on the matter of an absolute standard beauty" I think its entirely subject to opinion and culture.
Other people here have said that natural beauty is cheaper than achieving beauty so I have taken it to imply that someone possessing natural beauty need not have any additional enhancements because they are naturally beautiful.
What did you mean by "Its just that natural beauty comes with the implication that it can be built upon "?
Well, someone who is naturally more beautiful than another person who needs to use artificial things to gain traction with respect to aesthetic appeal will obviously look better no matter what.
Its really just throwing a buzz word on the term beauty. Aesthetics and fitness are all that are relevant to beauty. Things like fashion and whatnot lend exaggeration to specific parts of the body, which in turns makes them look better etc.