How about having an intelligent friendly conversation?


noleah's avatar
Looking through the forums, I'm not really sure thats possible here. All I see are a lot of people trolling over each other and trying to prove one another wrong when it is obvious neither side will be swayed.

I would actually like to be able to talk to someone on the topic of religion who can actually sit there and talk to me in an intelligent manner. Yes I'm new to the DA forums, but I'd like to believe there are still a couple people out there who are able to do this.

Yes, I am atheist. I used to call myself a Christian until I realized it was stupid and pointless to try and convince myself of something I could simply not make myself believe. I'm not asking you to convince me, nor will I attempt to convince you, I would just like to be able to talk about the different points of religion, and why we each believe what we believe.

I sure this will shortly evolve into people bashing each other, or trying to make arguments that neither side will accept. I'm not looking to have a religious argument. I just want to discuss religion with someone who will not turn around and bash me for being atheist or try to convince me that I'm wrong.

This is something that I think about on a daily basis. I question things in life a lot of us take for granted, and I question a lot of things that are controversial, and religion is one of the bigger things I think about. I've pondered on it for years, done my research for both sides, contributed in several heavily Christian and Catholic oriented projects, read the bible, argued it out with people, and in the end, I still believe what I believe. I'm not interested in you trying to convince me nor am I interested in convincing you, no matter if I think your own logic is flawed or not or if you think mine is. We are entitled to our own opinions. One of the people I know at work, whom could be considered my boss in a loose term, is very Christan, doesn't believe in evolution saying that its just as illogical as religion is. And while I disagree, and even as he tries to convince me to visit his church, I still refuse to argue the point. I think neither less or more of him because I know this, and if I did it would just make my job miserable. I've argued it out before, I've seen different arguments, and each one makes me think harder on the whole subject. I am completely open to know what you think and why. I for one know that there is another person behind the screen, and I respect your opinion.

I'm ok with debating different points, I like to know why you believe in what you do. I'm just tired of seeing all the bashing. So go ahead, bash me if it makes you feel better, but if I can get at least one intelligent non-bashing conversation out of this I would be happy. I'm perfectly happy talking to anyone, atheist, Christian, Catholic, and all other religions no matter how small or obscure. It is not my intention to insult or bash anyone for thier religion, I simply enjoy learning and educating myself.

Thats it for my wall of text. I'd simply like to know, what and why do you believe what you believe? What shaped your choice in this? And anything else you feel should be added.
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inkblush's avatar
"...Christian until I realized it was stupid and pointless..." Is personally what I believe your issue is. This statement could easily be considered rude and thoughtless. Though, you most likely didn't intend for it to be that way.

Now, if you want to talk about religion as a whole, you should promise to be more respectful not by saying it, but by proving it with your actions.

- I am a Christian, however unlike many believers of my Religious views and similar to early-age Illuminati, I believe that science and religion are simply different versions of the same story. What true Christian ever said that God couldn't have started the big bang? Or, what Atheist ever said that evolution couldn't have been simplified into the biblical story of Adam and Eve? Is it logically possible for both sides for both sides to believe, yes I think so.

Do both sides believe this? Probably not. These are my views on these complex and highly diverse topics.
noleah's avatar
Yes, oftentimes if you chop of the beginning and end of a sentence or chop out the middle, you can make it mean something completely different. I could do the same thing with one of your sentences. And if people really feel like they have to get pissed off at me about something and they want to dig for something, sure, they can bring that up. But they can't even use that as proof because all I have to do is quote the whole sentence and it completely negates their claim.

I have proved it, every conversation I've had here has stayed civil and not erupted into an argument no matter how the person treated me or my beliefs and what their own beliefs are. Even with the last person to point out that same sentence. I've gotten to have some very in depth conversations about religion and other people's beliefs already.

I'm offering to be open-minded with people here. If they really want to bring up the middle of a sentence, while ignoring the fact that I just called my own actions stupid and pointless, then I can ignore their attempts to anger me.
inkblush's avatar
No offense, but I was not looking for an argument and I didn't have to share my views with you.

If you're not able to carry on a civilized conversation with me because I offered you some constructive criticism, you shouldn't be offering to carry out civilized conversations about religion.

I apologize if I've offended you, however I don't see you apologizing for offending me.

Best of luck with your civilized conversations. Once again, I am sorry for not being able to have that civilized conversation with you. I really hope you can have a civilized conversation with somebody else about similar views that I have to share.

Et tu Brute.
noleah's avatar
My intention was not to be rude, though I realize over the internet it is extremely easy to see it that way. But yes, it picks a nerve to have that pointed out once more when I cannot do anything to change it and that it reminds me so much of when people will just twist a sentence to their own means. So now I have to look at all my sentences and make sure you can't re-arrange the words just to make me sound rude. Yes it bothers me that I cannot say something without people finding fault with it. >.< I did not intend to offend you.
inkblush's avatar
I didn't rearrange your words. They are your words exactly and as I said, you most likely didn't intend for it to sound that way.
alzebetha's avatar
Hello! I'm your man. I can talk intelligently, I just like to state my mind, and pay back stupid remarks with stupid remarks.

I don't agree with your position, as I believe one has only one life to stand up for whatever they know, they think to be true(I avoid believe here explicitely, faith is a lack of knowledge) with those little monkeybrains of theirs, and no, as the introduction may mislead I am not an Atheist, I picked the LaVeyan Satanism for myself.. well in a way the introduction hinted at that, though it is more obscure.

I found myself identifying with this viewpoint more then anything else, to say it simply, it is basically rational secular christianism, while accepting that a religious framework gives pleasurable thoughts and feelings, it's also a very narcissitic attitude, wich suits me just well, as I am the greatest human being on the earth, at least from my own perspective. I remember a moment where a very good evangelical religious teacher of mine asked 'who is closest to you' and while many people said god, jesus, parents, true love, he always shook his head and finally said.. 'No, it's yourself' Interestingly the only class I ever got an A+ in was his too so perhaps we thought similiar about everything, but anyway. I'd not say that this was the moment where I went AHA! and jumped to my new faith but it describes itself, and similiar alike thought processes that lead me to my current 'believe'

I think this is more then enough elaboration on what shaped my choice. anything else, well, I obviously believe my believe to be superior to others, but I am also aware that if you ask a pro wrestler if fighting with people is fun you may get a slightly biased answer equally.
noleah's avatar
Well I'd certainly stand up for my belief if I were in a debate, but right now I'm just offering to be open-minded. :3 And perhaps a bit to show people that its not what you believe that shapes you. Just because one atheist is an asshole doesn't mean all of them are. See? I'm not an asshole. The same goes for other religions and beliefs.

XD I find that teacher very interesting, and at the same time I like how he looks at that. I almost envy people who can jump into their own religion or belief as something that seemed to have been made for them. X3 Most people have to struggle to discover what it is they believe. Sometimes I think religion complicates life more than it needs to, and at the same time religion, and non-religion are, in the most basic sense, just different ways of understanding the world around you. We all choose to understand life the best we can. I think everyone thinks their belief is superior to others XD Otherwise why would we believe it?
alzebetha's avatar
I don't believe other religions/believes to be assholes,I just believe them to be stupid and deluded, and myself to be an asshole.

one could say I struggled a bit to discover things, but when I did it was a bit of an aha! moment.. if I'd be a less intelligent person(see how I harp on that), I'd call it a moment of enlightenment.. identifying with a certain doctrine to a vast extend that is.

I don't think everyone is able or willing to introspect on the validity of their believe, for many it is just defining part of their nature, and questioning it, immoral(think of red state america). Of course those are the most invalid believers in my opinion.
Muffin-Machine's avatar
as long as the statement "I Am" is followed by further description there will be debate and conversations will be useless.
noleah's avatar
So, 'I am atheist.' will spark a debate as well as 'I am completely open to know what you think and why.'
And while yes, people have already pointed out both of these and said something about it, none of those turned into debates. *shrugs* people have already insulted my belief here multiple times, and yet, no debate, no insulting back, no arguing. People have challenged my openness to other people's opinions, but I didn't challenge back, and thus no debates and no arguments. Yes at some point two other people here will no doubt start arguing or debating over something and there is little I can do about it, but I won't be starting any debates. My sole purpose here is to find the few people who want to be able to talk about their religion without being insulted, and I've actually already found a couple, so I consider this worthwhile.
Muffin-Machine's avatar
You don't consider your response to be an attempt to show that I may be incorrect in my statement and therefore debate? I didn't say you had to be angry. My point is that by saying "I am" and following that statement with anything other than silence is to take a position. You can take the position lightly ("I am joking!") or you can take a position seriously ("I am part of a religion!") but a position is taken and identified with. Just as up is naturally followed by down taking a position is followed by a feeling of being challenged. If you felt nothing could change your position then why would you bother to state one?

I am simply stating my own position :)

I am glad you have found this worthwhile. I was only venting my frustration with everyone being trapped in an illusion anyway.
noleah's avatar
I prefer to term it 'expressing my own opinions'. A debate would technically be 'To engage in argument by discussing opposing points.' I'm not really sure I'd call it an argument, though if you wanted to get extremely technical then it might count as such. But then, any point in which someone says 'I like ham sandwiches' and another person says 'I think bologna sandwiches are better' is technically an argument. So yes if you want to get extremely technical that counts as a debate, as is almost any opposition of opinions that says 'I think this is better because...'

But, I would not consider it a debate until it would become something that could be considered an actual argument. I don't consider just an opposition of opinions to be an argument in the everyday sense. But either way it doesn't really bother me, just trying to see what you were saying. So now I should find a way to say that I'm atheist, without actually saying the words 'I am' just so someone cannot argue it? X3 I'm starting to see why this forum is full of arguments. You can't say anything without people finding fault with it XD
Muffin-Machine's avatar
Yes, exactly what you said.
Ronin201's avatar
That's a pretty good question. Of all things, I'm glad more than anything else to see this isn't another thread made for the sake of ridiculing Christians and thinking they're all the same like several recent threads have been :roll:

I am a Christian (don't worry I'm not going to try and convert you, I don't see myself as the evanglism type and I've long known it doesn't work to force beliefs onto people) and I believe what I believe because to me it makes sense and gives me a reason why I'm here (though I don't know if I've found the purpose God has for me yet). Even though I was raised in a Christian-oriented household, I made my own descision to believe in what I do. I'm still young in my faith, and there's things in the Bible I still don't fully understand but I'm learning as I go. But if anything else, it gives my life meaning and comforts me that I'm not perfect but to God that's okay. People will say there's no physical proof, but that's why it's called faith.

let it be known to potential flamers I intend to stand by my opinions and reasons.
noleah's avatar
And I'm quite happy to hear from some Christians who don't immediately insult atheism or continually provide quotes from the bible ^.^ (Not that its wrong to provide quotes, but it rubs on the nerves when one has to point out multiple times that bible quotes are only proof for people who believe in the bible. Just as quotes from any other religious text would only apply to people in that religion, not just the bible)

Yes, I've always found religion to have many comforting aspects (not that its bad to have those ^.^) The knowledge you will go to heaven, the knowledge that someone is there for you watching, caring for, and leading you. Knowing your sins are forgiven, having 'right' and 'wrong' set down in a book in black and white. It is comforting to have things regimented (believe me, I know what having a regimented life is like, its my job XD) And there isn't anything wrong with liking these things and finding comfort in them. In the end, we are all just understanding the world around us in different ways. Half of me cannot live life without understanding things logically, and the other half of me loves fantasy. That logical half of me made it impossible for me to believe in religion, even when my other half wanted it more than anything. I have no doubt that if my logical half just wasn't so loud and demanding, that I'd be Christian. Funny how life likes to work. XP
Ronin201's avatar
yeah, even though I'm trying to learn how to spread my testimony, I'm not going to force it on someone or share it unless they say they're willing to hear it. I can also agree on the using verses too much (for me it goes back to forcing instead of sharing.

yeah I can agree on the regimented part, especially because my youth pastors have taught me that a regimented life is not what makes one Christian. I like how you put it too about understanding the world, because to be honest I'd be telling the biggest lie if I said I have all the answers about Christianity and the Bible.
noleah's avatar
And I'd be lying if I said everything was answered by believing there is no god XD There are a lot of things which have no proof on either side which can explain it. Many things which have no logical explanation, or things in which the explanation is both logical and illogical, but I also don't think humans are all-knowing. I expect that in the future some explanation will come up. The simple existence of a problem with no logical explanation does not immediately mean religion is the answer, just that we haven't found the answer. Just like things with no religious answer does not mean that a logical answer is immediately the correct one. Though I admit I find that it where religion gets fuzzy. If there is no specific answer in the bible it is simple stated 'god made it that way' and no further answer is looked for. the bible has already been read forwards, backwards, and upside down. When there are no further answers to be found within the bible, will 'god made it that way' just be the sole and ultimate answer for everything not answered in the bible? While logic and silence at least continues to try and find new answers.

Don't take this as an attack or anything, I'm just curious as to how more religious people see it. I don't claim to know everything, perhaps you have a better explanation to these questions than I do. XP
Ronin201's avatar
it's okay, I see it as just wanting to know, not an attack.
Peribyss's avatar
Well, I'd like to argue that you're misusing the word trolling, like most of the internet seems to do, but that's irrelevant anyway. It's basically misused as anyone that seems angry, and believe it or not it's mostly misused by people who are actually angry themselves. Whatever, beside the point.

Some people act like twats. Sure. I'll give you that. I can't even argue against it if I wanted to. It's atheists, it's Christians, it's everybody. There's someone acting like an asshole. Oh well.

Most of it is heated discussion. That's debate. It's not insulting, and it sure isn't trolling. Those who state "x position is dumb" and other variants are not debate, but anything that focuses on proving a point by supporting it logically without making a personal attack is debate. It's not always going to end in "Well golly gee, I think differently than you. Here are my points, I'm really sorry if I'm offending you, but I disagree. Have a nice day!"

I understand your point, and what you're complaining about is present on these forums sometimes, but I think you're mistaking maybe a little bit of it for discussion with a little elevated energy.
noleah's avatar
I've always understood trolling as doing or saying something simply to make the other person angry. Though I admit my choice of words up there isn't the best. I'm not expecting nice debates, I expect debates to get heating and angry, I expect people to present points and argue over things in debates. Mostly what I'm offering here, is to listen to someone without judging them or accusing their beliefs of being wrong. Pretty much just offering to be completely open-minded. Not to mean that if I were in a debate I would continue to be open-minded, though I am more naturally open-minded than aggressive, in a debate I would most certainly be more assertive.

Though I think my original post has not been written in the best way, I sometimes have a hard time converting thoughts to words X3 I would re-write the whole thing if I could to make it clearer. >.< But I do understand your point.
fantasylover103's avatar
Can I ask a stupid question? Why do you like atheism? Is it easier, or do you like your own rules or do you just find it a smarter way to live?

Sorry, I'm curious. :dummy:
noleah's avatar
I certainly wouldn't consider that a stupid question. I think it is perhaps partially all of those, though mostly through my own experiences. I know everyone has probably come about to their own conclusions differently, but I think what it was for me was a conflict going on in my head. One side wanted to believe god was real while the other didn't. To shorten up the story a bit, basically I did a ton of thinking on each point, trying to dig up some sort of answer, and I looked at both sides, talked to people who were religious and those who weren't. And in the end I realized it was impossible for me to believe in god simply because my mind refuses to let me. While I still want to believe god is real, my mind refuses to believe that as fact, and thus, I cannot believe god is real. For some people believing is god is easier. They no longer have to question a lot of things about life, like how we came to be or what happens after we die. They don't have to worry about not existing after we die, and they have set rules on what is right and what is wrong. I'm not downgrading that, in fact I completely understand it. But with me believing in god made things harder, and while yes in some ways atheism is easier, so is religion. Its all how you look at it.

I would see having my own rules as making up a religion. Atheism has rules, perhaps not ones set out in a book in black and white, but there are indeed rules. We don't just run around saying 'I'm an atheist I can do whatever I like! No rules no rules!' But I think they are harder to understand and explain then those set down in religion. Yes there is more freedom in atheism, but not so much it would be a legitimate reason to become atheist.

As for a smarter way to live, well I think a lot of atheists look at it that way. They might say 'Atheism is smarter because it is logical' or 'Atheism is smarter because we are not clouded by unreal beliefs' Well, I'm sure they can word it in a much ruder way but thats not my point, my point is, some atheist look at religion as 'ignoring the truth'. I think of religion more as a way to understand the world around you. When you look at religion and atheism in a completely unbiased way, all people do is choose how they want to interpret the world around them. I prefer to interpret it in a way my brain can agree with, and my brain refuses to believe anything unless it is logical. I can't change that. My brain prefers things it can see and understand. Other people prefer to interpret the world differently, its not my place to judge which way is the smarter way.

I'm not sure that that came out completely right, especially the last part. I refer to my brain as a separate being while I think of it more as something that is part of me, but then that I am split into two parts. And when I refer to my brain I refer to the the more logical concrete part, while the other part of me has a passion for dragons and fantasy. I'm not sure it came out completely right though, I often have a hard time finding the right word to describe something or it doesn't flow from head to text in the right way.

But curious is good. I am too, thats why I made this thread XD So we can all be curious together and learn of different opinions and ask questions and see how other people understand it.
TimeHasAnEnd's avatar
Because, God says, all man are "spritually dead" and can't believe in Him. Unless, God gives you a new heart, a new mind, and a new spirit. Only, then you can start to believe in Him. Otherwise, we are dead in spirit and can't discern the truth and the "spiritual things of God."

It also written: Our eye can't not see nor hear, neither have entered in the heart of man the things which God prepared for them that love him.

But God have revealed his spirit unto to those who search him for the spirit searcheth all the deep things of God. Because for what man knows only the things of man and the things of this world. But the things of God, no man knows.

In another words, the natural man receive not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned or spiritually dead.


fantasylover103's avatar
Wow....I believe in God because it's comforting knowing that someone in life loves me. Plus I think he's awesome. :)

Feels like an idiot for having a short answer.