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January 26, 2013
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How about having an intelligent friendly conversation?

:iconnoleah:
noleah Featured By Owner Jan 26, 2013   Digital Artist
Looking through the forums, I'm not really sure thats possible here. All I see are a lot of people trolling over each other and trying to prove one another wrong when it is obvious neither side will be swayed.

I would actually like to be able to talk to someone on the topic of religion who can actually sit there and talk to me in an intelligent manner. Yes I'm new to the DA forums, but I'd like to believe there are still a couple people out there who are able to do this.

Yes, I am atheist. I used to call myself a Christian until I realized it was stupid and pointless to try and convince myself of something I could simply not make myself believe. I'm not asking you to convince me, nor will I attempt to convince you, I would just like to be able to talk about the different points of religion, and why we each believe what we believe.

I sure this will shortly evolve into people bashing each other, or trying to make arguments that neither side will accept. I'm not looking to have a religious argument. I just want to discuss religion with someone who will not turn around and bash me for being atheist or try to convince me that I'm wrong.

This is something that I think about on a daily basis. I question things in life a lot of us take for granted, and I question a lot of things that are controversial, and religion is one of the bigger things I think about. I've pondered on it for years, done my research for both sides, contributed in several heavily Christian and Catholic oriented projects, read the bible, argued it out with people, and in the end, I still believe what I believe. I'm not interested in you trying to convince me nor am I interested in convincing you, no matter if I think your own logic is flawed or not or if you think mine is. We are entitled to our own opinions. One of the people I know at work, whom could be considered my boss in a loose term, is very Christan, doesn't believe in evolution saying that its just as illogical as religion is. And while I disagree, and even as he tries to convince me to visit his church, I still refuse to argue the point. I think neither less or more of him because I know this, and if I did it would just make my job miserable. I've argued it out before, I've seen different arguments, and each one makes me think harder on the whole subject. I am completely open to know what you think and why. I for one know that there is another person behind the screen, and I respect your opinion.

I'm ok with debating different points, I like to know why you believe in what you do. I'm just tired of seeing all the bashing. So go ahead, bash me if it makes you feel better, but if I can get at least one intelligent non-bashing conversation out of this I would be happy. I'm perfectly happy talking to anyone, atheist, Christian, Catholic, and all other religions no matter how small or obscure. It is not my intention to insult or bash anyone for thier religion, I simply enjoy learning and educating myself.

Thats it for my wall of text. I'd simply like to know, what and why do you believe what you believe? What shaped your choice in this? And anything else you feel should be added.
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Devious Comments

:iconsilenttrain:
SilentTrain Featured By Owner Jan 29, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
"...Christian until I realized it was stupid and pointless..." Is personally what I believe your issue is. This statement could easily be considered rude and thoughtless. Though, you most likely didn't intend for it to be that way.

Now, if you want to talk about religion as a whole, you should promise to be more respectful not by saying it, but by proving it with your actions.

- I am a Christian, however unlike many believers of my Religious views and similar to early-age Illuminati, I believe that science and religion are simply different versions of the same story. What true Christian ever said that God couldn't have started the big bang? Or, what Atheist ever said that evolution couldn't have been simplified into the biblical story of Adam and Eve? Is it logically possible for both sides for both sides to believe, yes I think so.

Do both sides believe this? Probably not. These are my views on these complex and highly diverse topics.
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:iconnoleah:
noleah Featured By Owner Jan 29, 2013   Digital Artist
Yes, oftentimes if you chop of the beginning and end of a sentence or chop out the middle, you can make it mean something completely different. I could do the same thing with one of your sentences. And if people really feel like they have to get pissed off at me about something and they want to dig for something, sure, they can bring that up. But they can't even use that as proof because all I have to do is quote the whole sentence and it completely negates their claim.

I have proved it, every conversation I've had here has stayed civil and not erupted into an argument no matter how the person treated me or my beliefs and what their own beliefs are. Even with the last person to point out that same sentence. I've gotten to have some very in depth conversations about religion and other people's beliefs already.

I'm offering to be open-minded with people here. If they really want to bring up the middle of a sentence, while ignoring the fact that I just called my own actions stupid and pointless, then I can ignore their attempts to anger me.
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:iconsilenttrain:
SilentTrain Featured By Owner Jan 29, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
No offense, but I was not looking for an argument and I didn't have to share my views with you.

If you're not able to carry on a civilized conversation with me because I offered you some constructive criticism, you shouldn't be offering to carry out civilized conversations about religion.

I apologize if I've offended you, however I don't see you apologizing for offending me.

Best of luck with your civilized conversations. Once again, I am sorry for not being able to have that civilized conversation with you. I really hope you can have a civilized conversation with somebody else about similar views that I have to share.

Et tu Brute.
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:iconnoleah:
noleah Featured By Owner Jan 29, 2013   Digital Artist
My intention was not to be rude, though I realize over the internet it is extremely easy to see it that way. But yes, it picks a nerve to have that pointed out once more when I cannot do anything to change it and that it reminds me so much of when people will just twist a sentence to their own means. So now I have to look at all my sentences and make sure you can't re-arrange the words just to make me sound rude. Yes it bothers me that I cannot say something without people finding fault with it. >.< I did not intend to offend you.
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:iconsilenttrain:
SilentTrain Featured By Owner Jan 29, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I didn't rearrange your words. They are your words exactly and as I said, you most likely didn't intend for it to sound that way.
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:iconalzebetha:
alzebetha Featured By Owner Jan 29, 2013
Hello! I'm your man. I can talk intelligently, I just like to state my mind, and pay back stupid remarks with stupid remarks.

I don't agree with your position, as I believe one has only one life to stand up for whatever they know, they think to be true(I avoid believe here explicitely, faith is a lack of knowledge) with those little monkeybrains of theirs, and no, as the introduction may mislead I am not an Atheist, I picked the LaVeyan Satanism for myself.. well in a way the introduction hinted at that, though it is more obscure.

I found myself identifying with this viewpoint more then anything else, to say it simply, it is basically rational secular christianism, while accepting that a religious framework gives pleasurable thoughts and feelings, it's also a very narcissitic attitude, wich suits me just well, as I am the greatest human being on the earth, at least from my own perspective. I remember a moment where a very good evangelical religious teacher of mine asked 'who is closest to you' and while many people said god, jesus, parents, true love, he always shook his head and finally said.. 'No, it's yourself' Interestingly the only class I ever got an A+ in was his too so perhaps we thought similiar about everything, but anyway. I'd not say that this was the moment where I went AHA! and jumped to my new faith but it describes itself, and similiar alike thought processes that lead me to my current 'believe'

I think this is more then enough elaboration on what shaped my choice. anything else, well, I obviously believe my believe to be superior to others, but I am also aware that if you ask a pro wrestler if fighting with people is fun you may get a slightly biased answer equally.
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:iconnoleah:
noleah Featured By Owner Jan 29, 2013   Digital Artist
Well I'd certainly stand up for my belief if I were in a debate, but right now I'm just offering to be open-minded. :3 And perhaps a bit to show people that its not what you believe that shapes you. Just because one atheist is an asshole doesn't mean all of them are. See? I'm not an asshole. The same goes for other religions and beliefs.

XD I find that teacher very interesting, and at the same time I like how he looks at that. I almost envy people who can jump into their own religion or belief as something that seemed to have been made for them. X3 Most people have to struggle to discover what it is they believe. Sometimes I think religion complicates life more than it needs to, and at the same time religion, and non-religion are, in the most basic sense, just different ways of understanding the world around you. We all choose to understand life the best we can. I think everyone thinks their belief is superior to others XD Otherwise why would we believe it?
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:iconalzebetha:
alzebetha Featured By Owner Jan 30, 2013
I don't believe other religions/believes to be assholes,I just believe them to be stupid and deluded, and myself to be an asshole.

one could say I struggled a bit to discover things, but when I did it was a bit of an aha! moment.. if I'd be a less intelligent person(see how I harp on that), I'd call it a moment of enlightenment.. identifying with a certain doctrine to a vast extend that is.

I don't think everyone is able or willing to introspect on the validity of their believe, for many it is just defining part of their nature, and questioning it, immoral(think of red state america). Of course those are the most invalid believers in my opinion.
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:iconmuffin-machine:
Muffin-Machine Featured By Owner Jan 28, 2013  Student Digital Artist
as long as the statement "I Am" is followed by further description there will be debate and conversations will be useless.
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:iconnoleah:
noleah Featured By Owner Jan 29, 2013   Digital Artist
So, 'I am atheist.' will spark a debate as well as 'I am completely open to know what you think and why.'
And while yes, people have already pointed out both of these and said something about it, none of those turned into debates. *shrugs* people have already insulted my belief here multiple times, and yet, no debate, no insulting back, no arguing. People have challenged my openness to other people's opinions, but I didn't challenge back, and thus no debates and no arguments. Yes at some point two other people here will no doubt start arguing or debating over something and there is little I can do about it, but I won't be starting any debates. My sole purpose here is to find the few people who want to be able to talk about their religion without being insulted, and I've actually already found a couple, so I consider this worthwhile.
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:iconmuffin-machine:
Muffin-Machine Featured By Owner Jan 29, 2013  Student Digital Artist
You don't consider your response to be an attempt to show that I may be incorrect in my statement and therefore debate? I didn't say you had to be angry. My point is that by saying "I am" and following that statement with anything other than silence is to take a position. You can take the position lightly ("I am joking!") or you can take a position seriously ("I am part of a religion!") but a position is taken and identified with. Just as up is naturally followed by down taking a position is followed by a feeling of being challenged. If you felt nothing could change your position then why would you bother to state one?

I am simply stating my own position :)

I am glad you have found this worthwhile. I was only venting my frustration with everyone being trapped in an illusion anyway.
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:iconnoleah:
noleah Featured By Owner Jan 29, 2013   Digital Artist
I prefer to term it 'expressing my own opinions'. A debate would technically be 'To engage in argument by discussing opposing points.' I'm not really sure I'd call it an argument, though if you wanted to get extremely technical then it might count as such. But then, any point in which someone says 'I like ham sandwiches' and another person says 'I think bologna sandwiches are better' is technically an argument. So yes if you want to get extremely technical that counts as a debate, as is almost any opposition of opinions that says 'I think this is better because...'

But, I would not consider it a debate until it would become something that could be considered an actual argument. I don't consider just an opposition of opinions to be an argument in the everyday sense. But either way it doesn't really bother me, just trying to see what you were saying. So now I should find a way to say that I'm atheist, without actually saying the words 'I am' just so someone cannot argue it? X3 I'm starting to see why this forum is full of arguments. You can't say anything without people finding fault with it XD
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:iconmuffin-machine:
Muffin-Machine Featured By Owner Jan 29, 2013  Student Digital Artist
Yes, exactly what you said.
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:iconronin201:
Ronin201 Featured By Owner Jan 28, 2013
That's a pretty good question. Of all things, I'm glad more than anything else to see this isn't another thread made for the sake of ridiculing Christians and thinking they're all the same like several recent threads have been :roll:

I am a Christian (don't worry I'm not going to try and convert you, I don't see myself as the evanglism type and I've long known it doesn't work to force beliefs onto people) and I believe what I believe because to me it makes sense and gives me a reason why I'm here (though I don't know if I've found the purpose God has for me yet). Even though I was raised in a Christian-oriented household, I made my own descision to believe in what I do. I'm still young in my faith, and there's things in the Bible I still don't fully understand but I'm learning as I go. But if anything else, it gives my life meaning and comforts me that I'm not perfect but to God that's okay. People will say there's no physical proof, but that's why it's called faith.

let it be known to potential flamers I intend to stand by my opinions and reasons.
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:iconnoleah:
noleah Featured By Owner Jan 29, 2013   Digital Artist
And I'm quite happy to hear from some Christians who don't immediately insult atheism or continually provide quotes from the bible ^.^ (Not that its wrong to provide quotes, but it rubs on the nerves when one has to point out multiple times that bible quotes are only proof for people who believe in the bible. Just as quotes from any other religious text would only apply to people in that religion, not just the bible)

Yes, I've always found religion to have many comforting aspects (not that its bad to have those ^.^) The knowledge you will go to heaven, the knowledge that someone is there for you watching, caring for, and leading you. Knowing your sins are forgiven, having 'right' and 'wrong' set down in a book in black and white. It is comforting to have things regimented (believe me, I know what having a regimented life is like, its my job XD) And there isn't anything wrong with liking these things and finding comfort in them. In the end, we are all just understanding the world around us in different ways. Half of me cannot live life without understanding things logically, and the other half of me loves fantasy. That logical half of me made it impossible for me to believe in religion, even when my other half wanted it more than anything. I have no doubt that if my logical half just wasn't so loud and demanding, that I'd be Christian. Funny how life likes to work. XP
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:iconronin201:
Ronin201 Featured By Owner Jan 29, 2013
yeah, even though I'm trying to learn how to spread my testimony, I'm not going to force it on someone or share it unless they say they're willing to hear it. I can also agree on the using verses too much (for me it goes back to forcing instead of sharing.

yeah I can agree on the regimented part, especially because my youth pastors have taught me that a regimented life is not what makes one Christian. I like how you put it too about understanding the world, because to be honest I'd be telling the biggest lie if I said I have all the answers about Christianity and the Bible.
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:iconnoleah:
noleah Featured By Owner Jan 29, 2013   Digital Artist
And I'd be lying if I said everything was answered by believing there is no god XD There are a lot of things which have no proof on either side which can explain it. Many things which have no logical explanation, or things in which the explanation is both logical and illogical, but I also don't think humans are all-knowing. I expect that in the future some explanation will come up. The simple existence of a problem with no logical explanation does not immediately mean religion is the answer, just that we haven't found the answer. Just like things with no religious answer does not mean that a logical answer is immediately the correct one. Though I admit I find that it where religion gets fuzzy. If there is no specific answer in the bible it is simple stated 'god made it that way' and no further answer is looked for. the bible has already been read forwards, backwards, and upside down. When there are no further answers to be found within the bible, will 'god made it that way' just be the sole and ultimate answer for everything not answered in the bible? While logic and silence at least continues to try and find new answers.

Don't take this as an attack or anything, I'm just curious as to how more religious people see it. I don't claim to know everything, perhaps you have a better explanation to these questions than I do. XP
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:iconronin201:
Ronin201 Featured By Owner Jan 29, 2013
it's okay, I see it as just wanting to know, not an attack.
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:iconperibyss:
Peribyss Featured By Owner Jan 28, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
Well, I'd like to argue that you're misusing the word trolling, like most of the internet seems to do, but that's irrelevant anyway. It's basically misused as anyone that seems angry, and believe it or not it's mostly misused by people who are actually angry themselves. Whatever, beside the point.

Some people act like twats. Sure. I'll give you that. I can't even argue against it if I wanted to. It's atheists, it's Christians, it's everybody. There's someone acting like an asshole. Oh well.

Most of it is heated discussion. That's debate. It's not insulting, and it sure isn't trolling. Those who state "x position is dumb" and other variants are not debate, but anything that focuses on proving a point by supporting it logically without making a personal attack is debate. It's not always going to end in "Well golly gee, I think differently than you. Here are my points, I'm really sorry if I'm offending you, but I disagree. Have a nice day!"

I understand your point, and what you're complaining about is present on these forums sometimes, but I think you're mistaking maybe a little bit of it for discussion with a little elevated energy.
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:iconnoleah:
noleah Featured By Owner Jan 29, 2013   Digital Artist
I've always understood trolling as doing or saying something simply to make the other person angry. Though I admit my choice of words up there isn't the best. I'm not expecting nice debates, I expect debates to get heating and angry, I expect people to present points and argue over things in debates. Mostly what I'm offering here, is to listen to someone without judging them or accusing their beliefs of being wrong. Pretty much just offering to be completely open-minded. Not to mean that if I were in a debate I would continue to be open-minded, though I am more naturally open-minded than aggressive, in a debate I would most certainly be more assertive.

Though I think my original post has not been written in the best way, I sometimes have a hard time converting thoughts to words X3 I would re-write the whole thing if I could to make it clearer. >.< But I do understand your point.
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:iconfantasylover103:
fantasylover103 Featured By Owner Jan 28, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
Can I ask a stupid question? Why do you like atheism? Is it easier, or do you like your own rules or do you just find it a smarter way to live?

Sorry, I'm curious. :dummy:
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:iconnoleah:
noleah Featured By Owner Jan 28, 2013   Digital Artist
I certainly wouldn't consider that a stupid question. I think it is perhaps partially all of those, though mostly through my own experiences. I know everyone has probably come about to their own conclusions differently, but I think what it was for me was a conflict going on in my head. One side wanted to believe god was real while the other didn't. To shorten up the story a bit, basically I did a ton of thinking on each point, trying to dig up some sort of answer, and I looked at both sides, talked to people who were religious and those who weren't. And in the end I realized it was impossible for me to believe in god simply because my mind refuses to let me. While I still want to believe god is real, my mind refuses to believe that as fact, and thus, I cannot believe god is real. For some people believing is god is easier. They no longer have to question a lot of things about life, like how we came to be or what happens after we die. They don't have to worry about not existing after we die, and they have set rules on what is right and what is wrong. I'm not downgrading that, in fact I completely understand it. But with me believing in god made things harder, and while yes in some ways atheism is easier, so is religion. Its all how you look at it.

I would see having my own rules as making up a religion. Atheism has rules, perhaps not ones set out in a book in black and white, but there are indeed rules. We don't just run around saying 'I'm an atheist I can do whatever I like! No rules no rules!' But I think they are harder to understand and explain then those set down in religion. Yes there is more freedom in atheism, but not so much it would be a legitimate reason to become atheist.

As for a smarter way to live, well I think a lot of atheists look at it that way. They might say 'Atheism is smarter because it is logical' or 'Atheism is smarter because we are not clouded by unreal beliefs' Well, I'm sure they can word it in a much ruder way but thats not my point, my point is, some atheist look at religion as 'ignoring the truth'. I think of religion more as a way to understand the world around you. When you look at religion and atheism in a completely unbiased way, all people do is choose how they want to interpret the world around them. I prefer to interpret it in a way my brain can agree with, and my brain refuses to believe anything unless it is logical. I can't change that. My brain prefers things it can see and understand. Other people prefer to interpret the world differently, its not my place to judge which way is the smarter way.

I'm not sure that that came out completely right, especially the last part. I refer to my brain as a separate being while I think of it more as something that is part of me, but then that I am split into two parts. And when I refer to my brain I refer to the the more logical concrete part, while the other part of me has a passion for dragons and fantasy. I'm not sure it came out completely right though, I often have a hard time finding the right word to describe something or it doesn't flow from head to text in the right way.

But curious is good. I am too, thats why I made this thread XD So we can all be curious together and learn of different opinions and ask questions and see how other people understand it.
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:icontimehasanend:
TimeHasAnEnd Featured By Owner Jan 28, 2013  Hobbyist
Because, God says, all man are "spritually dead" and can't believe in Him. Unless, God gives you a new heart, a new mind, and a new spirit. Only, then you can start to believe in Him. Otherwise, we are dead in spirit and can't discern the truth and the "spiritual things of God."

It also written: Our eye can't not see nor hear, neither have entered in the heart of man the things which God prepared for them that love him.

But God have revealed his spirit unto to those who search him for the spirit searcheth all the deep things of God. Because for what man knows only the things of man and the things of this world. But the things of God, no man knows.

In another words, the natural man receive not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned or spiritually dead.


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:iconfantasylover103:
fantasylover103 Featured By Owner Jan 28, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
Wow....I believe in God because it's comforting knowing that someone in life loves me. Plus I think he's awesome. :)

Feels like an idiot for having a short answer.
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:iconnoleah:
noleah Featured By Owner Jan 29, 2013   Digital Artist
XD I just feel the need to explain everything thoroughly. Pretty much everything I've posted here is long.
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:iconfantasylover103:
fantasylover103 Featured By Owner Jan 29, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
Ah, well, I have another stupid and personal question. How many people have bashed you yet for your views?
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:iconnoleah:
noleah Featured By Owner Jan 29, 2013   Digital Artist
I don't keep careful track of these things, and it is part of the reason I don't just come out and tell everyone 'Oh yeah I'm atheist what do you think of that?' Here, only two people have openly called my beliefs stupid/dumb/dead end, and I'm sure I could find a few more which hint at it. At the same time there have already been a couple saying religion is stupid/dumb/mythology. I like how everyone uses the same insults P:

In my own life, perhaps 10-20 people? As said, I don't really keep track. 'Oh that 15 people now who said atheism is stupid o3o' X3 I keep to myself most of the time, don't talk unless I feel I actually have something to add to the conversation, and some people simply give me that disapproving glance and stop talking to me, making car rides with them very awkward. I don't go around openly showing my own beliefs, so people don't know unless I tell them. I usually feel no need to tell someone unless we are having a conversation about religion, so it doesn't come up a whole lot. Not telling people all the time and not showing it doesn't mean I'm somehow not strong in my belief, I just personally feel that creates awkward situations, and openly showing such things just makes me feel as if it is an inadvertent way to push your own beliefs on others. I find it awkward just to see someone with a ton of religious stuff in their signature, much less seeing someone with a Jesus shirt walking around or giant billboards saying 'WORSHIP HERE' and pointing to the nearest church. And yes, I have to drive by that billboard every day when I go home. I know for people the obvious reason to do such things is because your proud of your beliefs. But at the same time its your way of showing 'this is how I think the world works' and thus you are also saying that you think all other beliefs are wrong. And in turn I take that to be 'your beliefs are wrong, mine are right, you should believe what I believe'. Yes, I might be looking a little too much into it, that doesn't change the fact that I still find it awkward to drive by a billboard, like its commanding that I pull over and start believing what they believe.

But thats my own views, however strange and illogical they are XD
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:iconfantasylover103:
fantasylover103 Featured By Owner Jan 29, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
XD Nice! :)

These people on theses forums can get mean so...
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:iconkausawolf:
kausawolf Featured By Owner Jan 28, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
:3 I'd like to think I can have a pleasant conversation on this topic.

My beliefs are long and drawn out, but were not written within a bible.
In short, I believe God is made of two parts. The Mother (emotions) and the Father (knowledge) are one, whom created the universe by sparking the big bang.
They gave all things souls. As we evolved into humans, they gave us a task. God is, essentially, incomplete. Emotions and knowledge are great, but without experience they are not complete.
So God gave us the task of bettering our souls and experiencing the "human experience" for them.
Before our souls leave to go to earth, they set out a "chart" displaying all we will learn on earth. How we will better our souls.
Each life betters our souls bits by bits, and gives God more experience.
Someday, our souls will be perfect, and we'll cease to go back to earth. This isn't a rapture thing, it happens at different times for different souls. Many are already perfect, and many are far from it!
So thats pretty much the gist I suppose, theres a lot too it obviously, but it'd turn into quite a wall of text.
So I guess you can ask questions or whatever you'd like to say to my beliefs :3
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:iconnoleah:
noleah Featured By Owner Jan 28, 2013   Digital Artist
I think the only time I've ever heard anything similar to that was a web comic I read that was quite interesting. ^.^ The story and characters were great, and the author combined a lot of ideas and views and yet still made the comic run smoothly and effortlessly. I read the whole thing in one go, it made me do a lot of thinking about things, while other people might have just enjoyed the twists that most books and comics don't have. :3 It went into how a being created creatures in order to better understand itself and experience the world. Until the creatures came to be some powerful that they almost overthrew the being so it decimated them, erased it own memory, and started over with humans. XD Thats only part of the plot, but I thought it was awesome.

I think thats a very unique and interesting perspective ^.^ Besides the above example, I've never heard of anything quite like it, and I understand what you mean by it. So the soul gets reincarnated, slowly improving over time. Actually, I wouldn't mind a wall of text, I would be quite interested in learning more about it. :3

Hmm...questions, questions, so people who are more violent and 'evil' I guess you might say, is because their soul is not yet perfect? And so each person is basically predetermined on what kind of person they will be? Well not predetermined as in it is set in stone, but that their basic human selves are predetermined and that while they can try to act differently they are inherently good or bad (or in the middle) because of what their soul is, and basically in life they can follow that soul's being exactly and so the soul would not improve, or they could try and become someone who is either better or worse and thus making the soul better or worse? Are souls able to get worse, or only better? Just curious :3 I tend to ask a lot of questions once I get going. One question leads to the next in a never ending circle.
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:icontimehasanend:
TimeHasAnEnd Featured By Owner Jan 28, 2013  Hobbyist
It also, because the time is at hand, where God is separating the Sheep and the Goat. And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. We read this in Revelation 22:10-12.

"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still and he that is holy, let him be holy still."
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:iconkausawolf:
kausawolf Featured By Owner Jan 28, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
A webcomic ay? XD Haha I'd actually like to read it, it sounds pretty cool!

Aw well thank you. I've always been afraid to discuss my beliefs because they are often called "weird" or too "out there".
But I'm glad someone besides my close family doesn't think its all that weird!
I grew up believing like that, and it never sounded wrong. I've questioned many things, but this belief resonates in my heart as true, so I've never really thought about switching to something else. I've read other religions, and they just don't sit right with me.

Souls are only ever able to get better, and someone you see as "evil" isn't really evil. They are learning their lessons in a different way. Good and evil are all really how you look at things. If someone is a murderer, and killing people makes them feel good, they will see themselves as good and the police as evil. More often than not, most people think themselves good deep down inside, and those who oppose them evil. Its a matter of viewpoints. (I actually had a long discussion about Horde being evil and Alliance being good on this subject)
Everyone is here to learn a different lesson, and even if you can't reason it, no one dies without learning something very important. They all have different ways, and they will help teach other people their lessons as well.
I'll use the murderer example again. Lets say he rapes and kills a child, a very horrible and heinous act. Most people will say no good can come of it. But so much good can come that most people won't see, its unbelievable.
Purrhaps he learned in killing this child that he needs to look upon himself and change deeply. He learns about himself and feels great remorse for it.
The parents will learn powerful lessons in grief and tragedy, in forgiveness and revenge, and often their relationship will be stronger for it. Or maybe they'll break up, and meet two other wonderful people to share their lives with.
And no one acts the way they do because of how advanced their soul is. They act that way to fit the lessons they need to learn and need to help others learn.

Ah, no problem on the questions! I love answering them X3
I just hope I make sense to you!
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:iconnoleah:
noleah Featured By Owner Jan 29, 2013   Digital Artist
Yeah if you want to get the links for the comic you should probably note me X3 Some parts are a bit very explicit. X3 Actually its the first one thats really bad, its split into two parts. And the second one is the one that really goes into the religious part if I remember correctly. So if your not all for an R rated comic you could just read the second one. Though I may go skim through it again. Book series and comic series tend to meld together for me so its sometimes hard to me to remember which things happened in which X3 I blame my bad memory.

See? See? This is why I made this thread ^.^ People keep saying 'why did you make this if you didn't want to debate?' Well here the answer right here, 'so people can talk to me about their religion without being afraid of me thinking its weird or stupid' Some people just cannot understand this non-aggressiveness I have >.<

I see what your saying :3 Nothing is truly good or bad, they are just lessons to be learned to help improve your soul. Things like the Holocaust (yes I did just bring that up) although everyone (I hope) would agree that it was one of the most horrible things that has happened in history, at the same time it will be remembered and learned from for generations to come. Heh I think my soul would be having a lot of fun messing with me then X3 I've got a weird combination of things in my life that most people would never go through, and while most of the time when that happens it makes someone's life miserable, but I somehow ended up with a weird combination of stuff that didn't make my life miserable XD

I can't think of more question right now, but then, I'm only a bit distracted trying to do 4 things at once o3o
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:iconkausawolf:
kausawolf Featured By Owner Jan 29, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
X3 Hehe I shall note you then!

I can see why people on this forum can't seem to grasp your non-aggressiveness. This is a really aggressive forum!
They are always at each others throats, fighting and calling names. :C Its a harsh place, I honestly don't know why I keep coming back.

X3 Hehe well thats good that you aren't miserable!
Its funny, no two souls ever go through the same journey, no matter how similar, they are vastly all different!
But its good you have a good outlook :3
I have a chronic pain disease that normally affects people in their 40s, which I developed at 18. I'm disabled, and most of my future has been uprooted, but I will smile and thank the world for this, because it is making me stronger and helping me grow everyday.

:3 I understand! You can always note me if you want to know anything else~
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:iconreesewhyte:
reesewhyte Featured By Owner Jan 27, 2013   Digital Artist
I think healthy discussions inevitably bring up instances where certain opinions are challenged. I agree with you on your point that the tendency for bashing on this forum is unwarranted, but the reality of it is that there are people of all different maturity levels, mentalities etc posting on these threads and unfortunately things can go a little off the rails. At the same time, I think it's important for people to speak up for themselves when others do/say things that are out of line. If no one challenges it, it will only continue and nothing progresses.

To answer your question though, I'm an atheist and I also identify as a secular humanist.
I was technically raised as a Christian (Anglican) but my family was pretty relaxed and we were never forced to go to church, read scriptures, etc. When I was younger, on the rare occasions that we did attend church, I always felt so out of place and even at my young age I found a lot of the teachings to be illogical. I would pray here and there and allowed my brain to be riddled with anxiety over the thought that "God" would have a highlight reel of all the "bad" things in my life once it was time for judgment.

Luckily for me, I had a very smooth transition into my disbelief. My beliefs were never that strong to begin with so letting go of what little bit I had definitely wasn't too difficult.

In my opinion, I think the awareness of our own existence/mortality, fear of death, desire for guidance and need for comfort are main contributors for belief and I understand that completely. For me, personally, I see so much beauty in the natural world and am so fascinated with uncovering the real causes of certain occurrences in life - so much so that I don't feel any need to attribute things to supernatural causes. I'm very much an advocate for the expression "there's a logical explanation for everything." It may be a complicated explanation, it may be an explanation that I would have never fathomed, but at the core I do feel everything can be at least logically explained in some form. Just resorting to "God did it" was never enough for me. It's so empowering to me to discover that lust for knowledge and explore the possibilities that await when you find it.
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:iconnoleah:
noleah Featured By Owner Jan 28, 2013   Digital Artist
Thats pretty much how I feel on religion. That the fact that there are so many religions which have the same basic factors of heaven/hell and this is good/this is bad, and that people are being guided by these gods is because those are basic human wants. We want to be comforted, to not feel alone, to know what is the right thing to do. But I just don't feel everything is so black and white. I've also felt that there is a logical explanation for things, and even when the logic does not seem to be there, does not mean it isn't there, just is a form we don't yet recognize. I know a lot of religious people will say 'no this isn't logical' or that life itself or humans are illogical, and yet there is so much logic in our lives. Some things are logical and illogical, or things that cannot be explained logically, that doesn't mean there isn't a true logic to them.
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:iconreesewhyte:
reesewhyte Featured By Owner Jan 29, 2013   Digital Artist
Exactly. One of the problems that some religions have is that they adhere to over-simplified concepts(or black & white as you referred to it), and completely ignore the inner workings of certain situations regardless of how destructive such methods can be.

I agree, just because we may not have discovered the explanation for something yet, doesn't mean it should be attributed to natural forces. This holds true when we look back at things humanity has discovered over time that we once thought were caused by gods or other entities that transcend the natural world. There is so much to learn but I think we're definitely on a good path towards uncovering more about the world we live in.
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:iconnoleah:
noleah Featured By Owner Jan 29, 2013   Digital Artist
Heck, we used to think the world was flat, something perfectly plausible at the time. The world does look flat, and without calculating it or trying to find the edge, you'd never know it wasn't. Whats to say we have explanations for things that appear perfectly logical and plausible when in a few hundred years people will look back and say 'Wow how could they be so stupid to believe that? Of course thats not how it works.' XD I always like to imagine in a couple hundred years what would be considered something old. We consider cars to be new and horse-and-carriage to be old. Will we have new types of transportation or different fuels or use the same ones? We still live in houses like they do when they used horse-and-carriage, whats to say we won't still use cars, but something completely different would evolve? X3 And...thats when I start thinking too much. But I certainly think we are improving. I just hope we'll work a bit more on not making Earth a nuclear wasteland.
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:iconreesewhyte:
reesewhyte Featured By Owner Jan 29, 2013   Digital Artist
Absolutely, and I think that comes with the beauty of seeking knowledge - never getting stuck on one conclusion for something. It'll be cool to see how the world progresses as the years roll by.
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:iconmacker33:
macker33 Featured By Owner Jan 27, 2013  Student Traditional Artist
Atheism is dumb and is a complete dead end.
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:icontimehasanend:
TimeHasAnEnd Featured By Owner Jan 27, 2013  Hobbyist
It's really a dead and there's no future in it.
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:iconmacker33:
macker33 Featured By Owner Jan 28, 2013  Student Traditional Artist
I cant figure out how they think they are helping themselves at all.
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:iconnoleah:
noleah Featured By Owner Jan 27, 2013   Digital Artist
Ok. I appreciate your view on it :3
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:iconmacker33:
macker33 Featured By Owner Jan 28, 2013  Student Traditional Artist
I cant figure out the sense of it,
there must be a little bell that rings in their head that tells them that they are intelligent but i cant figure out why.
And why are they so hostile and aggressive?
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:icontimehasanend:
TimeHasAnEnd Featured By Owner Jan 28, 2013  Hobbyist
Because, their intellectual mind wishes and desires that no Deity exists who will call them to account one day for their actions? Such a desire can be very motivating and could drive a person to very hostile and very agressive.

The scripture says, that everyone is born into this world with a "spiritually dead mind" Ephesians 2:, that is driven by desires, which are in rebellion against God. Where God is concerned, the natural mind is polluted by sin Romans 1:28. Blinded toward God 1 Corinthians 2:14. Thinks in futile ways Ephesians 4:17. "Is ignorant about God" Ephesians 4:18. "Is openly hostile towards God Romans 8:7." And is completely unable to come to God on its own or understand His truth in a saving way 1 Corinthians 2:14."

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:iconnoleah:
noleah Featured By Owner Jan 29, 2013   Digital Artist
Thats because most atheists believe in 'what goes around comes around' 99% of the time, if your nice to people, people are nice back. And if your mean to people, people are mean back. And yet in religion you are forgiven of your sins, as long as you didn't mean it, and it wasn't too horrible, its ok, your forgiven. *shrugs* I know there are different sects of religions, so maybe I learned it different than you did. But I got the impression that Jesus died to forgive all our sins. So even if you commit a sin your forgiven. Can't that motivate someone to be more aggressive because they know they are already forgiven?

So what I gathered from that, is god picks the people who will be saved? o.O So if he just decides to not pick you, too bad for you your going to hell. Thats a pleasant thought. >.< Not trying to challenge what you said, but thats what I understood.
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:iconmacker33:
macker33 Featured By Owner Jan 29, 2013  Student Traditional Artist
I guess some people are like budgies looking at their reflection in a mirror, they peck the mirror and ring a little bell. I guess its entertaining if you are a budgie.

My problem is that their gospel creates more people just like themselves. And theyve the gall to lay the blame at christians,
Well theres only so much we can do.
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:iconnoleah:
noleah Featured By Owner Jan 28, 2013   Digital Artist
Well I certainly hope I'm not coming off as hostile ^.^ I've met plenty of religious people who are hostile and plenty of religious people who are very nice. And I've met hostile atheists and atheists who are very nice. People don't just become hostile or nice because of their religious preferences, they are just the person they are.
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:iconmacker33:
macker33 Featured By Owner Jan 28, 2013  Student Traditional Artist
Well there seems to be a lot of aggressive atheists around at the moment,
its like someones personal belief in God is an affront to their persons.
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:iconnoleah:
noleah Featured By Owner Jan 28, 2013   Digital Artist
I think some people are just naturally that way. And others are that way because of religious people who were hostile to them, so they feel the need to fight back. But then, people can never get along. Violence is part of us.
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