Alzheimer's isn't a loss of memory, it's a loss of connection to them. This has since long been known a fact. For all I know, Fabrice Muamba's blood was kept flowing enough to not cause him brain damage: it's just that his heart stopped beating on it's own.
It's pretty much a fact that memories are physical neurobiological constructs, neurons wired to each other in the most unbelievably sophisticated ways.
thats my point about Alzheimer mate you don't lose the memories just the link tho them. to may people assume that people with alzheimers cant make memories or recall them which is wrong.
also fabrice muamaba had a cardiac arrest not a heart attack it seems some people don't know the difference.
if you have a heart attack the supply of oxygen to the heart is blocked if you have a cardiac arrest there is no oxygen getting to the brain
This is why cpr is crucial. however Cpr only gives a very small amount of oxygen (not enough to stop brain damage in the long run) i.e without cpr there dead in minutes with cpr they can survive longer before brain damage kicks in.
you need to someone make the heart beat in its natural rhythm which is why we try to shock it back into life with a dephib.
if you cant shock a patient back to life in 10 mins without cpr and 20 mins with they are declared dead. This is because there brain has no received enough oxygen to keep it alive so even with cpr they don't have enough of oxygen !
or to put is simpler CPR gives them some oxygen and increases there chances but not enough ot keep them alive.
Muamaba had a cardiac arrest not a heart attack so the only oxygen his brain was getting was from CPR meaning he needed a dephib pronto however the dephib did not appear to work.
so he had no oxygen to his brain apart fro mthe cpr which means he was dead after 20 minutes however you and i both know now this was not the case
but the doctors did not know that at the time when they decided to carry on regardless.
so my question is what caused them to carry on and if they had carried on in other cases would they of been able to save lifes.
also i pointed out he didn't suffer brain damage because we are told as a fact anyoen waking up after 5-10 minutes of CPR has a 98% chance of brain damage and after 20 mins there brains beyond repair.
yet he went 70 minutes + and none of that happened which suggests that science might be wrong.
im writing a more detailed report on this right now if you want to see it, this was typed fast and is only designed to try and quickly explain what happened the report will go into exact detail and explains it a lot better.
No, in a cardiac arrest, the heart goes into asystole. It simply stops beating. CPR on it's own often helps to save people, because sometimes cardiac arrest is cause by fibrillation, which heart massage can help remedy. Defribillation is then the normal course of action, along with adrenaline. I understand all you are saying, but your conclusion that this somehow constitutes a breach of science is utterly fallacious and has no basis in your axioms.
i dont know why i keep trying but i keep praying you might eventually listen as the informaton could save someones life :-
While the heart is asystolic, there is no blood flow to the brain
unless CPR or internal cardiac massage (when the chest is opened and the heart is manually compressed) is performed, and even then it is a small amount. After many emergency treatments have been applied but the heart is still unresponsive, it is time to consider pronouncing the patient dead. Even in the rare case that a rhythm reappears, if asystole has persisted for fifteen minutes or more the brain will have been deprived of oxygen long enough to cause brain death.
Cpr stops the brain being asystolic now its only Hypoxia which means you have a better chance of survival.
If someone was hypoxia and you gave them cpr they might get enough oxygen to wake up which happens in a heart attack.
but in A cardiac arrest the oxygen in your breath is only 17% because your body has used 4% of it your body needs 21% oxygen to function properly.
this 17% stops the brain tissue dieing as fast because its getting seem oxygen but it will still die.
you seem to think your still asystolic when people are performing cpr and i keep trying to explain how thats not the case anymore.
You keep thinking CPR saves there life and that's not the case CPR keeps them alive so you can save there life with other methods
if you don't get the heart working again they will die.
i suggest you look it up rather than keep telling me i am wrong because if you don't dephib someone quick enough there die and if your firend are really in the medical profession and they dont know this they could end up losings patients they don't need to!
It is a small amount, but it is enough to prevent apoptosis of neurons. Only if asystole goes untreated for 15 minutes or more will brain death be the likely outcome, not if the patient was receiving CPR. CPR is not JUST heart massage, it includes artificial respiration, which replenishes the levels of oxygen in the lungs, and thus the blood. Which prevents the brain tissue from dying. I repeat, asystole is when you heart is not beating OF IT'S OWN ACCORD. When CPR is performed, the patient is still asystolic, because the tiny organ which acts to fire the muscle tissue is either in fibrillation, or is not firing. CPR can revive patients, but when combined with defibrillation is much more effective. I have looked it up. Turns out, you are wrong, ultimately. So I state again, you are simply spouting nonsense. Your predicates in no way validate your conclusion.
Many people might of gave in trying to explain to you by now. However I believe you are a clever guy but way to stubborn for your own good (something that people could also say about myself).
Now because we are both stubborn we are probably never going to see eye to eye however I believe you deserve a chance to see why I find your arguments so hard to follow and why they appear to make no sense. I am doing this So you can try to defend yourself, because right now it appears to me that you just keep reclaiming the same flawed argument and you appear to be digging yourself a big hole.
In order to do this I will display your quotes *Please note I will include the whole quote rather than the bits that back me up so people can read it all and make there mind up for themselves.*
After that I will then display my counter arguments, so this might be a very long thread (I hope you don't mind reading) but I hope you take the time to read it because I fell its the only way we can move forward.
finally I Will then display the sources of information I used to state my points including links to the sites I got them from.
* Normal normal I only display links to the sites I got my information from so people can read more if they wish. However in this case I want to make it crystal clear where I got my information from so there is no confusion*
Also To try and help make this rather long thread clearer I will put the the very important bits of the information in-between stars * *
your quotes 1) “You are a moron. The papers say dead, *they mean asystolic. He was not brain dead*, he was not declared dead. Simple. “
2) “He was not declared dead. *He was described as "technically dead", asystole. * If he was declared legally dead, he'd have received no more treatment. He continued to receive treatment because legal death was not declared, *he wasn't brain dead*.” Simple. Seriously, like, my little sister could understand, and she's 8. It's...so simple. “
3) “*When CPR is performed, the patient is still asystolic, because the tiny organ which acts to fire the muscle tissue is either in fibrillation, or is not firing. “*
so it appears your argument is saying that you believe he wasn’t brain dead but you believe he was asystolic for over 70 minutes?
My argument :- I have tired to explain countless times that Asystoic is a state of no cardiac electrical activity, hence the patient has no cardiac output, so there is no blood flowing to the brain. I have further explained if you are Asystolic for over 15 minutes you are considered brain dead because your brain tissues die if they are deprived of oxygen .
And CPR is how you treat it :- CPR's main purpose is to restore partial flow of oxygenated blood to the brain and heart.
So if CPR is done right the brain has Oxygen so its not Asystoic .
Evidence taken from sites :-
While the heart is asystolic, there is no blood flow to the brain *unless CPR or internal cardiac massage is performed.*
if asystole has persisted for *fifteen minutes or more the brain will have been deprived of oxygen long enough to cause brain death*.
15 minutes of Asystolic (deprived of oxygen) = brain death
So you appear to be calling me a moron for calling him Brain dead and telling me how its simple! Then in your very own argument, your actually claiming he was asystolic so he would of been brain dead after 15 minutes! What exactly are you trying to prove? Because to me it appears your determined to prove he was Asystolic, but proving that would means he would of been declaring brain dead after 15 minutes. But you clearly want me to believe he he was never brain dead? Your argument seems to destroy itself does it not?
Personalty I would suggest that rather than arguing with me,you should count yourself lucky that I’m telling you that's not how it works and you should try to understand why it doesn’t work that way.
Because right now your the one who's killing your own argument (about him not being brain dead) and I’m actually handing you a lifeline that you don't seem to want to accept. Also you have to ask yourself why would I hand you such a lifeline if I didn’t believe it? Surely I should/could just let you carry on digging. But I come onto this forums to try and learn things and discuss things rather than to push my views onto others and you made some very good points before you dug yourself into this particular hole.
You also seem to miss interpret me and assume we are on different sides! I stated under law they can declare him dead if he has not woken up after CPR (his heart cant be restarted by the dephibilator.) Because of this the newspapers can legally say he was dead / arose from the dead or anything they want (that makes good headlines) . But this is where you make yet another huge mistake just because I say the papers can legal declare it doest mean I believe he was dead!
I keep trying to point out how someone made a mistake. Because he clearly never died yet your so busy arguing if he was asystolic and what the legal law is and calling me a moron that you don't even notice we are actually arguing the same dam point!
And just to make it clear to you that point is :-
The papers where wrong when they declared him dead!
Next I will tray and l explain why you appear so confused about CPR!
What does CPR DO
Your argument :-
“It is a small amount, but it is enough to prevent apoptosis of neurons. Only if asystole goes untreated for 15 minutes or more will brain death be the likely outcome, not if the patient was receiving CPR. CPR is not JUST heart massage, it includes artificial respiration, which replenishes the levels of oxygen in the lungs, and thus the blood. Which prevents the brain tissue from dying. I repeat, asystole is when you heart is not beating OF IT'S OWN ACCORD. When CPR is performed, the patient is still asystolic, because the tiny organ which acts to fire the muscle tissue is either in fibrillation, or is not firing. CPR can revive patients, but when combined with defibrillation is much more effective. I have looked it up. Turns out, you are wrong, ultimately. So I state again, you are simply spouting nonsense. Your predicates in no way validate your conclusion. “
It would appear you have sort of noticed the mistake I pointed out earlier By declaring he is asystole your declaring he would be brain dead. So you are trying to fix your error by saying if your asystole and receiving CPR you cant be brain dead but this is not the case.
You still have not twigged that I have already dug you out of this hole and you are making an even bigger hole for yourself. Some people might suggest I should let you carry on but instead I will throw you a rope because like I explained earlier we are actually on the same dam side!
You seem to be getting confused by what happens before after and during CPR . In your example you say “When CPR is performed, the patient is still asystolic” which can be true but is very rare and you don't twig that after CPR they wont/cant be asystolic.
So I will try and explain why its rare and how your getting confused. in cardiac arrest only (not in heart attacks)
Before CPR The patients heart has stooped altogether and they are in Ventricular fibrillation if untreated *it will likely degenerate further into asystole ("flatline") *
During this time (while they are not getting CPR) the victim’s chances of survival fall 7%- 10% every minute they go untreated. If the patient is not revived after a sufficient period (within roughly 5 minutes at room temperature), the patient could sustain irreversible brain damage and possibly become brain dead so you need to do CPR as fast as possible.
* So before CPR the heart could go into Asystole if its untreated *
Extra notes When the heart stops beating in cardiac arrest the breathing centre in the brain is still alive for a couple of minutes and this will cause the victim to take a few abnormal breaths. These abnormal breaths associated in dying are called agonal respirations. They may appear like snoring, gasping, or snorting and will disappear in a couple of minutes. Don't let abnormal breathing stop you from starting CPR.
This is why the following quote you keep using Tottenham club doctor Shabaaz Mughal was among those who rushed to Muamba's aid. He said: "He appeared to take a couple of gasps but was then unresponsive."
does not mean he was still alive.
During CPR Your aim during CPR is to try and stop VF from developing into asystole by restoring partial flow of oxygenated blood to the brain and heart. If the CPR is performed quickly enough and it is successful you should stop the body from going into asystole and you can latter use defibrillation to shock the heart into a natural rhythm.
However *If it does not work the body goes into Asystole and Defibrialltion will not work so the person is declared dead after 20 minutes. * This is why its Crucial that a patient gets CPR as fast as possibly by someone that's well trained because good CPR stops them going into asystole which can save there life and if performed correctly it can also save there brain.
Extra things to Note 1) CPR only works for so long and it is widely excepted that if CPR has not worked after 20 -30 minutes the person is beyond saving.
2) Something that appears to cause more confusion If someone goes into asystole you can still perform CPR on them and try to get them out of it. however there chances of survival are drastically reduced so your main aim is to perform CPR before they go into asystole. However you shouldn't give in if you think there asystole.
3) You are performing CPR to try and prepare the body for Defibrialltion, if you get lucky the person might wake up while you are doing it but this is incredibly rare (despite what you see on TV) because CPR is not designed to save someone on its own its designed to be used with Defibrialltion.
So hopefully I have pointed out where you seem to get confused. you argue that Mamba was in asystole this whole time. But you also want to argue that he was not brain dead
I have pointed out several times he would have been brain dead if he was in asytole for over 20 minutes (This is a medical fact)
Fortunately for you thought I have just pointed out that there's a slim chance the CPR actually worked and took him out of it but the medical staff somehow didn't originally noticed this or they didn’t report it to the media.
So you now have an argument again see? If the CPR worked he wouldn’t/ couldn’t of been declared brain dead . Now At first the medical staff claimed the CPR did not work because they couldn’t shock his heart back into a natural rhythm via Defibrialltion . However the fact he woke up latter seems to suggest otherwise.
When I keep telling you this I am actually offering you some rope but rather than using it to try and climb out the hole you seem to want to take it and hang yourself with it.
Note this is why I originally thought you where a troll! Because Whenever I try explaining how CPR works to you , you make the same flawed arguments and don't show me why you believe it.
Then whenever I am talking to other people you stick your nose in and start saying how i'm an idiot how i'm lieing.
I mean If you feel you have a case please feel free to defend yourself and show why you believe I am wrong to to everyone on this forum so they can make there own mind. But at the same time lets both stop the name calling and try to handle this like adults.
Where I got my sources
The following information is designed to show where I got my sources from so if you still don’t believe me you can read it for yourself, however if your finally understand what I have been trying to tell you you do not need to read all of this (unless you want to).
[link] ( I am aware A lot of people don't trust wikipedia but it puts it in laymen’s terms rather than advanced medical terms so its the easiest site to understand)
But if you don’t trust this site feel free to look up Ventricual fibrillation else where or alternatively you could ask your medical friends what it is.
Summary This long amount of text that follows simply states what I said earlier “Your aim during CPR or any treatment is to try and stop VF from developing into asystole” Because if the patient goes into asystole the patient can become brain damaged and eventually become brain dead.
ventricular fibrillation (V-fib or VF) is a condition in which there is uncoordinated contraction of the cardiac muscle of the ventricles in the heart, making them quiver rather than contract properly. Ventricular fibrillation is the most commonly identified arrhythmia in cardiac arrest patients. While there is some activity, the lay person is usually unable to detect it by palpating (feeling) the major pulse points of the carotid and femoral arteries. Such an arrhythmia is only confirmed by electrocardiography. Ventricular fibrillation is a medical emergency that requires prompt basic life support interventions. *If this arrhythmia continues for more than a few seconds, it will likely degenerate further into asystole ("flatline").* This condition results in cardiogenic shock and cessation of effective blood circulation. As a consequence, sudden cardiac death (SCD) will result in a matter of minutes. *If the patient is not revived after a sufficient period (within roughly 5 minutes at room temperature), the patient could sustain irreversible brain damage and possibly become brain dead due to the effects of cerebral hypoxia. On the other hand, death often occurs if normal sinus rhythm is not restored within 90 seconds of the onset of VF, especially if it has degenerated further into asystole*.
I told you earlier that :-
“Your aim during CPR is to try and stop VF from developing into asystole by restoring partial flow of oxygenated blood to the brain and heart.”
“You are performing CPR to try and prepare the body for Defibrialltion, if you get lucky the person might wake up while you are doing it but this is incredibly rare (despite what you see on TV) because CPR is not designed to save someone on its own its designed to be used with Defibrialltion.”
In sudden cardiac arrest the heart goes from a normal heartbeat to a quivering rhythm called ventricular fibrillation (VF). This happens in approximately 2/3rds of all cardiac arrests. *VF is fatal unless an electric shock, called defibrillation, can be given. CPR does not stop VF but CPR extends the window of time in which defibrillation can be effective. *
CPR provides a trickle of oxygenated blood to the brain and heart and keeps these organs alive until defibrillation can shock the heart into a normal rhythm. If CPR is started within 4 minutes of collapse and defibrillation provided within 10 minutes a person has a 40% chance of survival.
*CPR alone is unlikely to restart the heart; its main purpose is to restore partial flow of oxygenated blood to the brain and heart. The objective is to delay tissue death and to extend the brief window of opportunity for a successful resuscitation without permanent brain damage*.
*Brain death starts to occur four to six minutes after someone experiences cardiac arrest if no CPR and defibrillation occurs during that time. If bystander CPR is not provided, a sudden cardiac arrest victim’s chances of survival fall 7 percent to 10 percent for every minute of delay until defibrillation. Few attempts at resuscitation are successful if CPR and defibrillation are not provided within minutes of collapse.* [link] Administration of an electric shock to the subject's heart, termed *defibrillation, is usually needed in order to restore a viable or "perfusing" heart rhythm*. Defibrillation is only effective for certain heart rhythms, namely ventricular fibrillation or pulseless ventricular tachycardia, *rather than asystole or pulseless electrical activity*. CPR may succeed in inducing a heart rhythm which may be shockable. *CPR is generally continued until the subject regains spontaneous circulation (ROSC) or is declared dead.*
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`anmari has been spreading her infectious positivity throughout our community for over 6 years. Throughout this time Ana has been at the core of all things devious, passionately developing an eclectic gallery, helping organise devmeets, participating in chat events and also recently completed dedicating her time as a Community Volunteer. We are absolutely delighted to bestow the Deviousness Award for May 2013 to `anmari, congratulations! Read More