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January 22, 2013
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Murder Stigma - alienated from society?

:iconpuzzledheartbox:
PuzzledHeartBox Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013
A man aged +/- 25 who killed his ex-girlfriend in a passionate argument that went out of control, served his time but during his time he fell in love with a female warden.
They start dating and become a couple – even after his release from prison, though the warden has a daughter.
Her mother and her best friend do not agree and “force” the woman to break up with him and giving up on her love, trying to forget him because, HE IS A MURDERER. The woman tries to forget him, but stays stuck between emotions.
Eventually her daughter gets to know the fact he was a convict and killed his ex-girlfriend, yet the girl(Innocence of a child?) says that her mother should pursue her romance instead of living a sad and depressing life without him.
After a few months she goes back to him, and she’s once again happy – though loses her best friend in the process cause she was opposed to the relation due to the “murder-stigma” he carries with him.
Her mother eventually agree with her daughter and gives them her blessing.

:bulletgreen:What’s your though on this “murder stigma” that runs deep in our society?
:bulletgreen:Could you give someone like that a second chance, do they deserve a second chance?
:bulletgreen:Are they allowed to have a new romance after accidentally killing their previous one?
:bulletgreen:I’m well aware I looked at it from a romantic point of view – but what about reintegration into society? Should they forever carry the brand? The Stigma?

*Note : this should not be a discussion about death penalty or religious justice – it’s purely meant to discuss the possibilities/difficulties of social reintegration.
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Devious Comments

:iconneurotype:
neurotype Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
:lock: OP request
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:icondutchconnaisseur:
DutchConnaisseur Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2013
She is selfish egoistical moron for:
-Falling in love with an inmate (relationships between staff and inmates are forbidden)
-Putting not only herself but also her daughter near an ex-killer who lacks self control
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:iconcarusmm:
carusmm Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
Love is bananas.
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:iconpuzzledheartbox:
PuzzledHeartBox Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013
Gwen Stefani, is that you :roll:
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:iconkittylevin:
KittyLevin Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Well, it's not smart to be in a relationship with a murderer, because the sort of person who commits one murder is likely to do it again, on purpose or by accident. He/she probably has mental issues of some kind.

That said, every case is different, and I have no problem with the basic concept of someone falling in love with a murderer.

#crimeandpunishment
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:iconpuzzledheartbox:
PuzzledHeartBox Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013
You have a valid point, and I'm glad you'd not just call it black/white.
There is indeed a very large grey area depending on circumstances, mental health and much more.
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:iconfantasylover103:
fantasylover103 Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
Well, love is love. If she loves him, it's fine. If she loves him and she realizes that he was
playing her, scars will heal.
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:iconpuzzledheartbox:
PuzzledHeartBox Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013
I agree, but is it right for society to judge her for being in love?
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:iconfantasylover103:
fantasylover103 Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
Depends on what you mean by society. On this forum, or in real life?

IN REAL LIFE: No, it is not okay for them to judge her at all. It is her choice, and hers only. If they can't get over that fact, then they must forgive their loved ones easily, showing that they are not very good friends/relations/whatever.

ON THIS FORUM: Well, the word "judge" is kind of a harsh word. Think of it as an opinion. You posted this forum, and all forums get haters. It's natural, trust me.
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:iconpuzzledheartbox:
PuzzledHeartBox Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013
Of course I mean real life.

I'm well aware of the "haters" - I'm a big forumer(17k+ posts).
I like a discussion, just not when it's too narrow-minded.
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:iconfantasylover103:
fantasylover103 Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
IN REAL LIFE: The answers no I guess? No one should judge people on who they like.
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:iconunclegargy:
UncleGargy Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Can't the warden find anyone on the outside instead? She must be very ugly if she goes with one of the lags. Prisoner/guard relationships should be banned and any officer caught should be sacked on the spot.
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:iconpuzzledheartbox:
PuzzledHeartBox Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013
They did started dating inside as well as stayed together once he got free.
Alas under pressure of society she had to break up.

I believe one should be a little bit more professional when at work :)
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:iconunclegargy:
UncleGargy Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Depends how they killed the person. One blow, one shot or one stab then that's a tragedy. But they could have called it manslaughter. If they stabbed, shot or hit the person loads of times then you can NEVER TRUST THEM ever again as they lose control.
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:iconpuzzledheartbox:
PuzzledHeartBox Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013
Exactly, they didn't specify the way the deed was done at all, so there's a lot left to speculation.
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:iconyagamiseven:
Yagamiseven Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013
I think it is stupid for her to date someone that has committed murder if he can't controlling himself and keep himself from killing his lover the first round. What is to stop him from doing a second round, by the way has he said he was being foolish idiot for killing his first lover ? I will meant this story is good for fiction but bad for reality.
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:iconpuzzledheartbox:
PuzzledHeartBox Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013
He did feel very bad for what he has done and accepted his punishment,
He does realize he'll never be able to truly atone for what he's done.

All by all, I believe if the woman truly loves him and knows everything about him.. it's really her choice.
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:iconmercury-crowe:
Mercury-Crowe Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013  Professional Artisan Crafter
See, here's the problem-

You have a dog that bites, you can't trust it. Same with a person. If someone can lose control and kill someone ONCE, they can do it again.

Since killing people isn't acceptable in our society at this time, we are supposed to have more self control than that, it's going to put them permanently outside of societal norms.

Does that mean they are bad people? Not necessarily. But it DOES mean they are by default more dangerous than your average person.

The REASON someone has killed someone also makes a HUGE difference. Flying into a rage is way different than killing someone who is actively trying to kill you. In general, self defense is acceptable.
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:iconpuzzledheartbox:
PuzzledHeartBox Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013
Very true.

I don't think I'd be fully capable of trusting him/her.
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:iconbohobella:
bohobella Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013  Professional Traditional Artist
That's nice and all if someone wants to fuck/date/marry someone who murdered their last lover, but I sure as hell wouldn't. It would be one thing if you said he murdered an abusive spouse or otherwise in self-defense, but it takes a special kind of person to be able to kill, I don't care how "passionate" the argument is, and I want nothing to do with someone who would ever resort so casually to murder, I mean just what the fuck. I'm kind of surprised this is a discussion. Of course they're allowed to date again and most of them do, but the people who write love letters to murderers are a zany bunch all on their own.
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:iconpuzzledheartbox:
PuzzledHeartBox Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013
Oh god. People writing love letters to "mass" murderers is simply insane.
But you're right though - I wouldn't date someone like that, but I wouldn't stop other from doing so.
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:iconbohobella:
bohobella Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013  Professional Traditional Artist
For me I also consider my family. Even if I had a crush on a murderer, my mother would die if I brought him home and it would be something we would fight over for the rest of her days. If this was something like my mother freaking out over him being black or not being a doctor, her opinion would be irrelevant. But I can't put my mother through such genuine stress as dating a murderer, one who murders his partner no less.
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:iconpuzzledheartbox:
PuzzledHeartBox Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013
If you put it like that, it's rather nice of you.
To place the happiness of others before your own.
But what if by doing so you truly destroy your own happiness and causes you to be depressed - missing him non-stop?

In the case I posted in my op, it's like that.
Her mother however after a while supports her daughter's choice seeing how heartbroken and miserable she is without him.

But I guess it's something that you can't really do alone - you need some sort of background for it, it needs to be accepted at least in some way.
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:iconbohobella:
bohobella Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2013  Professional Traditional Artist
Oh, I didn't realize this was based on a real story.

This is true, but I really don't think I would ever personally be able to give a murderer of passion or whatever, a second chance. I'd probably agree with my mother on this one, and while not the same as murder we just went through my sister dating a drug dealer five years older than her with a son who nearly killed some kids with an extremely dangerous mix of drugs... I just can't care about "love" in these situations, and much like my mother I'd have to say suck it the fuck up if they're heartbroken.

But that's, of course, for my family. When it comes to strangers/acquaintances I will express my concern but I sure as hell will not control their lives.
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:iconpuzzledheartbox:
PuzzledHeartBox Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2013
Yep, it's straight from the documentary.

I'd feel unsafe.. no matter how much he/she would have changed.
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:iconbohobella:
bohobella Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2013  Professional Traditional Artist
Oh? What's the documentary?
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:iconpuzzledheartbox:
PuzzledHeartBox Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2013
It's a Dutch documentary/series "achter gesloten deuren"(Behind closed doors)
It's about people with socially awkward situations
(pregnancy from an other man, weird relations, secretly gay,...)
and those people finally have the guts to start talking about it.

And confronting their surroundings with it.

There was one where the Person A slept with his wife's best friend(The wife of Person B).
And it turns out, his best friend(person B) was sleeping with person A's wife.
However Person A's wife's best friend is Person B's wife. So they were actually cheating witch each others wife :lol:

So the wife from person A ends up choosing for person B, while both person A and the wife of person B wanted to keep their marriage and relationship.
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:iconbullet-magnet:
Bullet-Magnet Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013
To be fair, the murder stigma is well-earned.
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:iconpuzzledheartbox:
PuzzledHeartBox Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013
In a way it is, and in a way it isn't.

Some murders are unintended or just accidental.
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:iconbullet-magnet:
Bullet-Magnet Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013
Murder it means you meant the victim harm.
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:iconpuzzledheartbox:
PuzzledHeartBox Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013
Murder - Manslaughter, sue me :bucktooth:
Well, sorry for not being a native English speaker with in depth knowledge of the correct terminology ._.
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:iconbullet-magnet:
Bullet-Magnet Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2013
What? You haven't learned your noun distinctions? Now you die, pigdog.
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:iconendeavor-to-freefall:
I think it's a risk assessment thing. It's fairly obvious that someone who has killed has a greater capacity for murder.
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:iconpuzzledheartbox:
PuzzledHeartBox Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013
Well yes in a way you're right.
But perhaps they're also less inclined to do so again if they truly regret the murder and still feel guilt.
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:iconendeavor-to-freefall:
I'm not so sure, the whole point about crimes of passion is that the murderers standard morality was overridden by rage. Their opinion of the murder in a situation where they can think logically has no bearing on whether or not they will do it again when they pass that same point. I think the only murderers people don't fear being around are those who did it for vengeance of family or friends. People aren't usually afraid of the person who killed someone that abused their children because unless they fit the same circumstances it won't happen to them. I think the classic movie of a father hunting down his daughters abuser also helps this vigilante image. If a girl killed her last husband in a fit of rage I'm still not going with her, all the parameters I need to fit are being her partner and triggering her anger.
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:iconpuzzledheartbox:
PuzzledHeartBox Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013
You have a very valid point, and thank you for elaborating.
I didn't really think about the possibilities of vigilante murders.
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:iconsvataben:
Svataben Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
The premiss is a huge failure, since you picked a domestic abuser - domestic abusers are repeat offenders, and it is highly likely that he'll hurt another women. Staying away from him is sound, not because he ended up comitting murder, but because he's a domestic abuser.
End of.
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:iconpuzzledheartbox:
PuzzledHeartBox Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013
Let's just say, he ended up killing his girlfriend under extreme circumstances that pushed him as far as to kill her. Yet he feels extreme guilt and remorse for his actions and is willing to do what it takes to atone.

Would you find it right from society to shun him completely?
Not give him a second chance at all?
What about the woman that loves him, despite knowing his history?
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:iconsvataben:
Svataben Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Society shouldn't shun him, but I'd never date him. He could have removed himself from the bad situation. As long as it is murder, and not an accident, he had a choice, and he chose murder. Not the guy for me.

If a woman loves him, she should still be thinking about her own safety (if he was that dumb once, he could be again), nd the safety of those around her (will she drag a child into this, for instance).

I'd never fall for a man like that. Intelligence attracts me. :D
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:iconpuzzledheartbox:
PuzzledHeartBox Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013
I agree.

Indeed, the woman in question was his prison warden, and had a daughter - it was the daughter who told her mom to get back together with the murderer, cause she saw how heartbroken they both were.
She believes her mother's happiness and both his are equally important, despite his past.

I must admit, I wouldn't fully trust him, but as time passes so would the distrust dissipate eventually.
Though I'd always keep an eye out for possible signs.

He could be very intelligent, but provoked into something as this.
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:iconsvataben:
Svataben Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Being provoked, as the murder conviction proves, is no excuse.


But yeah, depending on details, I bet I'd be forgiving over time too. But still, I don't think I'd ever fall in love like that. It's like with married men, sure I can be attracted, but I put them in my mental No-Touch box, and there they stay.
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:iconpuzzledheartbox:
PuzzledHeartBox Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013
I agree. But at least you're not as close-minded as :dexzxy8: there is only black and white.


You could love him, before knowing he has done such deeds.
Then what would you do, if you found out?
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:iconsvataben:
Svataben Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
I have no idea.
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:iconpuzzledheartbox:
PuzzledHeartBox Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013
The case of the warden, she knew at first hand what he had done.
But decided to have a romance nonetheless, that she then stopped due to society(mother and best friend), to then after months restart under influence of her daughter.

I guess it depends from person to person really, and the circumstances under which it happened have an awful lot to do with it.
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(1 Reply)
:iconpuzzledheartbox:
PuzzledHeartBox Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013
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:iconpuzzledheartbox:
PuzzledHeartBox Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013
Well, yes. I should have specified less :shrug:
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:iconsvataben:
Svataben Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Or made the murder into a bar brawl or something.
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:iconpuzzledheartbox:
PuzzledHeartBox Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013
Bar brawl murder is also pretty specific and is mostly emotionally driven.
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:iconsvataben:
Svataben Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Sure, but that woudln't effect a wife like domestic abuse, so would have less to do with the decision making.
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:iconpuzzledheartbox:
PuzzledHeartBox Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2013
I never said he was a domestic abuser though, it could have been a one time thing that ended up bad.

I took it from a documentary and wanted to know what you guys think about it.

Do you agree with the mother and best friend, shun him, label him and stay away?
Or do you agree with the daughter who'd give him a second chance cause he makes her mother happy?
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