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January 5, 2013
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free will and the omnipotence of God

:iconcarusmm:
carusmm Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
If free will exists, then God is not omnipotent. Yes?
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:iconproductno49:
productno49 Featured By Owner Jan 6, 2013  Professional General Artist
god is everything, not some being trying to dominate us and keep us controlled, judging me whether i touch my prick at night or not... If people judge themselves and obey their own ignorance, then that action is part of "god". Ignorance itself is a necessary force, even if we usually view it as bad.
God to me is life itself, progress, good and evil, space, time, infinity but to put in words would be an understatement, we are part of god and god is part of us. in reality there is nothing separate from itself, everything is one. Only through our ego and the way we are programmed do we see separations, labels.

but really i dont believe in free will, since we are basically a victim of our past, our environment and things that are much bigger and have a lot of influence on us, things that drives us day to day.
but its a lie that makes us feel good, that makes us think we have some power, that some microscopic dust in the infinite cosmos is able to withstand the waves of winds and stay in place.

If freewill exist it would only be in a small percentage, but to have that small percentage you would have to change your lifestyle, your thinking patterns, overcome your human condition. basically its a waste of time even thinking about it, why cant we just live in the present and live our best without any need for justifications of what exists and what not
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:iconcarusmm:
carusmm Featured By Owner Jan 6, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
productno49, your statement strikes me as profound, even though we are opposites.
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:iconsvataben:
Svataben Featured By Owner Jan 6, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Stop making so many damn threads.
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:iconkittythenekoalien:
KittyTheNekoAlien Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
If you look at Deism, most believe that God created everything, but then chose to stay out of the way and doesn't interact with humans at all.
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:iconcarusmm:
carusmm Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
I can handle Deists, it's agnostics that I can't stand.
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:iconkittythenekoalien:
KittyTheNekoAlien Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Do they just not have an opinion about God in general, since they basically say they don't know if there is or isn't a god?
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:iconcarusmm:
carusmm Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
Not to have an opinion on God is pretty much the last straw with me.
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:iconkittythenekoalien:
KittyTheNekoAlien Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
What if a person simply didn't care?
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:iconcarusmm:
carusmm Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
Then why should I care about them? They'd only be a nuisance.
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:iconkittythenekoalien:
KittyTheNekoAlien Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
What makes them a nuisance though? Just because they are undecided on one idea?
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:iconcarusmm:
carusmm Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
The middle ground on God is for cowards.
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(1 Reply)
:iconnerofly:
nerofly Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013
The only way you're going to get libertarian free will is by an omnipotent God granting you it.
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:iconsaeter:
Saeter Featured By Owner Jan 6, 2013
Or that there isn't one.
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:iconnerofly:
nerofly Featured By Owner Jan 6, 2013
And that there isn't free will.
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:iconsaeter:
Saeter Featured By Owner Jan 6, 2013
Well yes that is a possibility. However if we are not capable of free will and the God of the bible exists then we are not responsible for our actions and if there is free will and the God of the bible then we are still not deserving of eternal punishment for finite crimes.
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:iconcarusmm:
carusmm Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
If God exists, he has the power to be and that is all.
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:iconpakaku:
Pakaku Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013
I misread as "The Impotence of God"

Poor guy
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:iconunclegargy:
UncleGargy Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Lol!
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:iconmondu:
mondu Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013
Pole ten foot in my backpack.

Wait, what were we talking about?
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:iconunclegargy:
UncleGargy Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
I do what I d**n well please. I don't need an invisible being to tell me what I should do. That includes my beliefs.
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:iconhurricaneclaw:
Hurricaneclaw Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I don't have a ten foot pole :saddummy:
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:iconrionx:
RiONX Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013
Why give it up so easily?
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:iconenuocale:
EnuoCale Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
I'm currently touching my ten foot pole.
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:iconmondu:
mondu Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013
You win, sir.
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:iconjuliabohemian:
Juliabohemian Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013
Oh baby.
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:iconjuliabohemian:
Juliabohemian Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013
:iconchosenoneplz: This thread is badong.
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:iconcrystalclearly86:
CrystalClearly86 Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013
Do you even know what omnipotent means? What does free will have to do with God being all powerful?
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:iconthelightswentoutin99:
TheLightsWentOutIn99 Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013  Student Writer
An omnipotent, omniscient being knows the choices every person will make before they're conceived, thus invalidating any idea of free will.
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:iconnerofly:
nerofly Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013
That doesn't necessarily follow.

A) An omniscient being knows everything it is possible to know
B) An omnipotent being can do anything it wants
C) An omnipotent being can grant a person (libertarian) free will
D) A person with free will has dominion over their own future
E) The future of such a person is unwritten
F) It is not possible to know the future of a person with free will
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:iconthelightswentoutin99:
TheLightsWentOutIn99 Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013  Student Writer
A) God creates humankind, knowing they will sin
B) God grants them free will, knowing they will sin
C) God then determines the outcome
D) God absolves himself of responsibility while still creating the entire situation
E) Pontius Pilate was the true messiah
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:iconunclegargy:
UncleGargy Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
He knows NONE of my secrets!
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:iconstripedpower:
StripedPower Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013   Digital Artist
Knowledge of the future doesn't imply intervention.
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:iconthelightswentoutin99:
TheLightsWentOutIn99 Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013  Student Writer
Creating the universe and knowing exactly how it will play out implies causing everything, including human choices.
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:iconstripedpower:
StripedPower Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013   Digital Artist
I'm not defending the idea of a separate God. But:

A clairvoyant doesn't need to interact with the future in order to see it. Starting a clock and knowing what hour it will mark in the future doesn't need interaction, because the clock runs by itself.
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:iconthelightswentoutin99:
TheLightsWentOutIn99 Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013  Student Writer
Yes, I understand that. However, a clairvoyant does not create time and space. God created the universe, with perfect understanding of that creation. The future course of the creation is thus dependent upon how God created it to begin with, as his creation includes its own future. Every particle of the universe has to interact with every other particle in the manner in which God created it. There is no element outside God's control. Even the choices that humans appear to make are simply a result of their own nature and the environment in which they exist, both of which were dictated by God when he created the universe.
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:iconstripedpower:
StripedPower Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013   Digital Artist
The Universe simply acts under its laws and principles, under its range of possibilities. I don't see where is the lack of free will.
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:iconthelightswentoutin99:
TheLightsWentOutIn99 Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013  Student Writer
As i-stamp stated, those laws and principles are determined by God, who also knows exactly how they will play out.
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(1 Reply)
:iconi-stamp:
i-stamp Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013
Laws and principals supposedly made by that omnipotent power with the express purpose to behave that way.

But let's go back to your example. If someone can see into the future in a limited capacity, the prediction may be ultimately wrong. But if the person absolutely cannot be wrong, then the fortunes cannot choose against that fortune, even if they know of it. It's become pre-ordained. And you have no choice but to make that decision.
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(1 Reply)
:iconragerancher:
Ragerancher Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013
I'm not touching this with my 10 foot pole dancer
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:iconkillianseraphim:
KillianSeraphim Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013  Student General Artist
The free will you're thinking of doesn't exist, according to the Bible. Those within Christ have limited free will, much like children have limited free will under their parents, and those outside of Christ are slaves to sin, thus having no free will at all.
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:iconsolum-ipsum:
Solum-Ipsum Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
I'm not touching this with my ten-tacle demon dicks.
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:iconkittythenekoalien:
KittyTheNekoAlien Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
:thumbsup:
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:iconsaeter:
Saeter Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013
Free will is a copout argument that Christian apologists use to explain the existence of evil. A means to relieve God of any responsibility for the undue suffering on innocent people. Everything is our fault for not following God's orders. Which is funny because the very same apologists claim that God gave us free will so that we are not mindless robots but the only choice we are given is to do evil. So in the end God IS still responsible for evil.
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:iconorangekrissy:
OrangeKrissy Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013
Why is your only choice to do evil? You can open a door for an old woman with an armload of groceries or trip her when she walks by you. If your only choice was to do evil you would slam the door in her face and steal her groceries.
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:iconsaeter:
Saeter Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013
I'm talking in the context of what God wants us to do and what he doesn't.
And as you say it presents the fact that free will can exist without evil.

The point I was trying to make was that "free will" is an apologists excuse as to why there is evil and that it is our fault and God holds no responsibility despite being the creator of everything.
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:iconorangekrissy:
OrangeKrissy Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013
There is evil because men have evil hearts. Evil comes in the form of power, wealth, sex,and greed. People in search of power and wealth will step on anyone and not care if what they do kills or sickens others. Greed is just wanting more of the same. Sex and lust breeds more evil than you would imagine. The only thing that holds a lot of supposedly good persons back is the fear of being caught. A lot of good people have evil hearts and do things in secret that men may not see but God does. You can't blame God for evil, blame His adversary the devil who would love your company in hell and wants to take as many with him as he can. Even Satan had the choice to do good or evil and he chose evil.
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:iconsaeter:
Saeter Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013
Oh I remember you! Your the cute girl with the brightly colored hair but is unfortunately severely misinformed/indoctrinated.

" Evil comes in the form of power, wealth, sex,and greed. People in search of power and wealth will step on anyone and not care if what they do kills or sickens others. Greed is just wanting more of the same. Sex and lust breeds more evil than you would imagine."

I won't argue with much of that because it is in our nature. But I'd like you to take note of your second sentence. If you read the bible you see God doing all the same but is he considered evil. From my perspective yes. The problem with your perspective is that you excuse God under the argument that it is all within his authority. In this same context is how tyrannical dictators are allowed to commit heinous act and in God's schemes you are nothing more than a slave to his whims.

"The only thing that holds a lot of supposedly good persons back is the fear of being caught."

Yes it does but getting caught by whom? Cause what does it matter if I sin or not so long as I confess and ask for forgiveness all will be forgiven (save not believing).
Law are put in place and policed to deter criminal activity but so does social status and relationships. A lot of what we do is often related with how we are perceived by others and our interactions with them. As social creatures we seek the company of others and so we model ourselves to appease our peers. Committing acts that would betray the perception others have of you; their trust endangers your relationships. As such that nagging feeling is the result of you expressing your empathy toward an other person and how you may effect them.

Of course I could blame God should he exist as described in the bible for it says that God can do anything, know everything and is supposedly all loving.
What I'm getting is that he allows the Devil to exist and by so allows evil to exist.
An all powerful being could have created an existence without evil or if the evil being from something outside it's creation would be able to remove it.
If evil was something that would have invaded (or spontaneously formed) then an all knowing God would have equipped us from inception to resist it.
If God is truly all loving then he would do everything within his power to prevent evil to befall us.

From experience an observation we see that this is not how things are so those who claim God exists have to blame something else.

It's not that I truly blame God for anything as I don't believe that there is a God that has ever been described actually exists but for the sake of context i made the statement.

'Even Satan had the choice to do good or evil and he chose evil.>/i>"

Now if an angel in heaven is free to choose evil does that mean that we all are still capable of evil in heaven?
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:iconorangekrissy:
OrangeKrissy Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013
No, because we are higher than the angels when we are in heaven. I wish the Bible had explained more than to take all the time talking who begat who. There is much unanswered. Surely God did not need us. He did not need us to give Him power.
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:iconsaeter:
Saeter Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013
Kinda makes you wonder the relevance of what's in it?
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:iconklaxonlithology:
KlaxonLithology Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
I'm not touching this with a ten-foot downy Pole.
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