Have you ever forgiven someone? If so, who needs God to forgive a second time?
Have you ever forgiven someone? If so, who needs God to forgive a second time?
It is to the one sinned against to have the first right of forgiving when forgiving is possible. That would be most sins and crimes save murder.
I have had the pleasure to forgive on a few occasions. I will assume here that you have also forgiven someone at some point in your life. I have had that pleasure after the pain and hope you have as well. I have stepped up to ask for forgiveness as well after sinning against someone and am thankful that people can and do forgive. This benefit I also hope you have enjoyed.
Our consciousness and ego are what we use to judge what should be forgiven. If we lose that ability to judge or if it is usurped, damage is done to our consciousness and ego. It would negate intelligent use of our freedom of choice. It would negate our free will and deny us closure.
The Government has taken our freedom of the body from us with various restrictions. Everything from what we consume to our right to die with dignity. God has taken our freedom of choice after death from us with his judgement. Jesus has taken our freedom to face our accuser from us by saying --- only through me --- as our only judge.
These usurping of your free will to forgive means that you could never get closure from offence and hurt.
That would make Jesus as big of a disgrace as his father in ignoring our free willed choices. People judge constantly. We cannot help but to do so. To have our judgements usurped or ignored shows a flaw in the justice system you follow, be it secular or religious.
The God of the Jews who evolved to be the Christian God had a different view of forgiveness than Jesus had even though Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi. Jesus as God would be from the Christian perspective. Not the Jewish one that has the majority of Jews as never accepting Jesus as their messiah. The claims to judging and Jesus’ status, or not, --- as a messiah--- needs not be discussed in this O P.
“Jewish belief states that G-d doesn't forgive our sins against others until we ask and receive forgiveness directly from the person we wronged.”
“In Judaism, the acts of repentance and forgiveness are inextricably linked, and we must never let our anger toward others cause us to lose sight of self-reflection and cleansing.”
[link]
Did Christianity and their version of the Jewish God usurp your power and benefits of forgiving?
Does that negate your free will, and your right to forgive?
Regards
DL
It is to the one sinned against to have the first right of forgiving when forgiving is possible. That would be most sins and crimes save murder.
I have had the pleasure to forgive on a few occasions. I will assume here that you have also forgiven someone at some point in your life. I have had that pleasure after the pain and hope you have as well. I have stepped up to ask for forgiveness as well after sinning against someone and am thankful that people can and do forgive. This benefit I also hope you have enjoyed.
Our consciousness and ego are what we use to judge what should be forgiven. If we lose that ability to judge or if it is usurped, damage is done to our consciousness and ego. It would negate intelligent use of our freedom of choice. It would negate our free will and deny us closure.
The Government has taken our freedom of the body from us with various restrictions. Everything from what we consume to our right to die with dignity. God has taken our freedom of choice after death from us with his judgement. Jesus has taken our freedom to face our accuser from us by saying --- only through me --- as our only judge.
These usurping of your free will to forgive means that you could never get closure from offence and hurt.
That would make Jesus as big of a disgrace as his father in ignoring our free willed choices. People judge constantly. We cannot help but to do so. To have our judgements usurped or ignored shows a flaw in the justice system you follow, be it secular or religious.
The God of the Jews who evolved to be the Christian God had a different view of forgiveness than Jesus had even though Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi. Jesus as God would be from the Christian perspective. Not the Jewish one that has the majority of Jews as never accepting Jesus as their messiah. The claims to judging and Jesus’ status, or not, --- as a messiah--- needs not be discussed in this O P.
“Jewish belief states that G-d doesn't forgive our sins against others until we ask and receive forgiveness directly from the person we wronged.”
“In Judaism, the acts of repentance and forgiveness are inextricably linked, and we must never let our anger toward others cause us to lose sight of self-reflection and cleansing.”
[link]
Did Christianity and their version of the Jewish God usurp your power and benefits of forgiving?
Does that negate your free will, and your right to forgive?
Regards
DL
Comments74
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I neither forgive nor forget.
Must be tough to live with so much hate.
Regards
DL
Regards
DL
You are the legion.
i try, but it seems like the only people that i ever have to forgive are people trying to convince me that i need to forgive them, that makes the whole process a rather precarious one.
Seems that that is the way it should be.
It would be quite strange if those who do not need your forgiveness would be coming around asking for it.
I understand your situation but fail to see your problem if they actually did somerthing to you. If not, just tell them so.
Regards
DL
It would be quite strange if those who do not need your forgiveness would be coming around asking for it.
I understand your situation but fail to see your problem if they actually did somerthing to you. If not, just tell them so.
Regards
DL
The problem isn't really the people at all,i guess; it's a prevalent system of psychological road blocks keeping them from behaving in a human manner. i guess i could hold them responsible for giving up their humanity so easily, but which one of us hasn't experienced some kind of pain that didn't make us want to give up? should i really hold them responsible because they didn't have the strength to overcome their own weakness?
If people are not responsible for their own actions then who is?
Regards
DL
Regards
DL
Mostly the masters and systems they've given reign over their consciousness.
You use the term they've given.
That 8indicates it was their choice to give so how is it that others must take the blame for what they have chosen to do?
Regards
DL
That 8indicates it was their choice to give so how is it that others must take the blame for what they have chosen to do?
Regards
DL
Why did Anikin Skywalker kill all of those Jedi children? Was it because he had access to a light saber or was it because he had been taught the religion of the Sith?
"Did Christianity and their version of the Jewish God usurp your power and benefits of forgiving?"
Nope. Jesus and Christianity aren't living your life for you. They might be influencing your decisions, but that, along with those decisions, is something that's up to you. You decide whether you forgive others. You deal with the consequences of your decisions, not Jesus. If you really think Jesus is taking that responsibility away from you, try fucking up and saying it's Jesus' fault. See how far that gets you.
"Does that negate your free will, and your right to forgive?"
Only if you let it. As previously stated, it's up to you to decide whether or not to forgive someone. If you're looking to religion to do that for you, or worse, if you're trying to use religion as an excuse not to forgive, then you're missing the point of both religion and forgiveness.
Nope. Jesus and Christianity aren't living your life for you. They might be influencing your decisions, but that, along with those decisions, is something that's up to you. You decide whether you forgive others. You deal with the consequences of your decisions, not Jesus. If you really think Jesus is taking that responsibility away from you, try fucking up and saying it's Jesus' fault. See how far that gets you.
"Does that negate your free will, and your right to forgive?"
Only if you let it. As previously stated, it's up to you to decide whether or not to forgive someone. If you're looking to religion to do that for you, or worse, if you're trying to use religion as an excuse not to forgive, then you're missing the point of both religion and forgiveness.
Thanks for this.
I do not let religion decide much of anything for me although anything good that I find in any religious book I write on my heart.
I was thinking more of those I have forgiven who might think they also have to kowtow to a God for forgiveness when there is nothing for that God to forgive.
No debt needs to be paid twice and if a God demands it then he is immoral from my POV.
I am not an atheist nor do I believe in bible God but you and I are on the same basic page I think.
Regards
DL
I do not let religion decide much of anything for me although anything good that I find in any religious book I write on my heart.
I was thinking more of those I have forgiven who might think they also have to kowtow to a God for forgiveness when there is nothing for that God to forgive.
No debt needs to be paid twice and if a God demands it then he is immoral from my POV.
I am not an atheist nor do I believe in bible God but you and I are on the same basic page I think.
Regards
DL
The Christian philosophy is that when a sin is committed it is committed against God and so the sinner must ask God for forgiveness. Thus the purpouse of vicarious redemption is that you can be forgiven of anything save not believing in Christ without ever asking the actually wronged party for forgiveness.
So then one can ignore the victim and just profit from God having his own son needlessly murdered.
Embracing human sacrifice and punishing the innocent instead of the guilty is a good form of justice is it?
Or is it more of an insane policy?
[link]
Regards
DL
Embracing human sacrifice and punishing the innocent instead of the guilty is a good form of justice is it?
Or is it more of an insane policy?
[link]
Regards
DL
I've sais this to you before that ALL religion ia inherently irrational.
I do not agree.
I would agree that the Abrahamic cults are.
FMPOV, religions are to seek God. Not find one and then try to impose him on others.
Regards
DL
I would agree that the Abrahamic cults are.
FMPOV, religions are to seek God. Not find one and then try to impose him on others.
Regards
DL
They are irrational because they are beliefs in unprovable claims.
Most recognize that they are myths. It is just the literalists and fundamentals who believe.
Regards
DL
Regards
DL
I think you give people too much credit as it is much easier to blindly follow than it is to
form your own opinions.
form your own opinions.
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I haven't consciously forgiven someone so far as I can remember, but I struggle to hold a grudge for any length of time and eventually stop caring about past trespasses. I suppose that's the same thing?
I've always thought that Jesus' claim to be able to forgive us our sins, something we do to other people, to be one of the least humble and more monstrous statements he or anyone else has said. I was surprised to find CS Lewis in agreement with me on this. He wrote that anyone who makes such a statement must either be mad, as evil as the devil or the son of god (though as far as I'm concerned the latter two options are synonymous with the former). What I disagree with him on is the idea that were the son of god that that would make it acceptable, as I could not grant that right to god either, nor his offspring.
I've always thought that Jesus' claim to be able to forgive us our sins, something we do to other people, to be one of the least humble and more monstrous statements he or anyone else has said. I was surprised to find CS Lewis in agreement with me on this. He wrote that anyone who makes such a statement must either be mad, as evil as the devil or the son of god (though as far as I'm concerned the latter two options are synonymous with the former). What I disagree with him on is the idea that were the son of god that that would make it acceptable, as I could not grant that right to god either, nor his offspring.
I like your atitude shown in your last.
Not your first but only from the POV that your way of healing does not include thinking of why the sin or evil was done to you and why you might do the same type of hurt to another. Forgiving the other also allows you to forgive yourself for the evil you must do to survive.
Let me explain.
Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.
That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."
But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.
If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.
Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.
Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.
Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.
Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.
Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.
This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.
Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us.
There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.
Regards
DL
----------------------------
Theistic evolution.
[link]
Not your first but only from the POV that your way of healing does not include thinking of why the sin or evil was done to you and why you might do the same type of hurt to another. Forgiving the other also allows you to forgive yourself for the evil you must do to survive.
Let me explain.
Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.
That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."
But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.
If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.
Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.
Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.
Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.
Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.
Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.
This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.
Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us.
There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.
Regards
DL
----------------------------
Theistic evolution.
[link]
So you're saying that if someone you ask for forgiveness doesn't forgive you neither will God?
Not quite. Many say they can fathom what an unfathomable God thinks but none can.
If your victim will deny himself the benefits of forgiving and closure then he is not mentally mature or ready to do so yet. If he never forgives, then he is actually hurting himself. Repenting is key and if you have learned from your mistake and resolved not to do it again, then you have the right to forgive yourself and move on.
As a Gnostic Christian, the Godhead I believe in is within you so there is not really an external God to run for forgiveness to. God cannot be a victim and it is to the victim to forgive and if he refuses a repenting person then he himself is not a good person.
Regards
DL
If your victim will deny himself the benefits of forgiving and closure then he is not mentally mature or ready to do so yet. If he never forgives, then he is actually hurting himself. Repenting is key and if you have learned from your mistake and resolved not to do it again, then you have the right to forgive yourself and move on.
As a Gnostic Christian, the Godhead I believe in is within you so there is not really an external God to run for forgiveness to. God cannot be a victim and it is to the victim to forgive and if he refuses a repenting person then he himself is not a good person.
Regards
DL
aww it's okay! we all forgive you for making these stupid threads 
hugs and kisses
hugs and kisses