The problem isn't really the people at all,i guess; it's a prevalent system of psychological road blocks keeping them from behaving in a human manner. i guess i could hold them responsible for giving up their humanity so easily, but which one of us hasn't experienced some kind of pain that didn't make us want to give up? should i really hold them responsible because they didn't have the strength to overcome their own weakness?
"Did Christianity and their version of the Jewish God usurp your power and benefits of forgiving?"
Nope. Jesus and Christianity aren't living your life for you. They might be influencing your decisions, but that, along with those decisions, is something that's up to you. You decide whether you forgive others. You deal with the consequences of your decisions, not Jesus. If you really think Jesus is taking that responsibility away from you, try fucking up and saying it's Jesus' fault. See how far that gets you.
"Does that negate your free will, and your right to forgive?"
Only if you let it. As previously stated, it's up to you to decide whether or not to forgive someone. If you're looking to religion to do that for you, or worse, if you're trying to use religion as an excuse not to forgive, then you're missing the point of both religion and forgiveness.
The Christian philosophy is that when a sin is committed it is committed against God and so the sinner must ask God for forgiveness. Thus the purpouse of vicarious redemption is that you can be forgiven of anything save not believing in Christ without ever asking the actually wronged party for forgiveness.
I haven't consciously forgiven someone so far as I can remember, but I struggle to hold a grudge for any length of time and eventually stop caring about past trespasses. I suppose that's the same thing?
I've always thought that Jesus' claim to be able to forgive us our sins, something we do to other people, to be one of the least humble and more monstrous statements he or anyone else has said. I was surprised to find CS Lewis in agreement with me on this. He wrote that anyone who makes such a statement must either be mad, as evil as the devil or the son of god (though as far as I'm concerned the latter two options are synonymous with the former). What I disagree with him on is the idea that were the son of god that that would make it acceptable, as I could not grant that right to god either, nor his offspring.
Not your first but only from the POV that your way of healing does not include thinking of why the sin or evil was done to you and why you might do the same type of hurt to another. Forgiving the other also allows you to forgive yourself for the evil you must do to survive.
Let me explain. Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.
That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."
But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.
If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.
Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.
Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.
Consider. First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.
Evil then is only human to human. As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate. Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.
Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.
This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.
Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us.
There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.
Not quite. Many say they can fathom what an unfathomable God thinks but none can.
If your victim will deny himself the benefits of forgiving and closure then he is not mentally mature or ready to do so yet. If he never forgives, then he is actually hurting himself. Repenting is key and if you have learned from your mistake and resolved not to do it again, then you have the right to forgive yourself and move on.
As a Gnostic Christian, the Godhead I believe in is within you so there is not really an external God to run for forgiveness to. God cannot be a victim and it is to the victim to forgive and if he refuses a repenting person then he himself is not a good person.
I don't have to offer an "argument against". You are factually incorrect. If saying so is unloving then so be it, but correct knowledge is the opposite of ignorance. If you have that backward, then that explains much about your thinking.
Forgiving others, and being forgiven by others, is of PARAMOUNT importance in Christianity, and always has been. It's does not go too far to say that, regardless of what you "embrace", salvation is unavailable without it. One does not obtain forgiveness from God alone -- God will not forgive sins against others unless you first ask forgiveness from those you have offended. You do that first, and THEN confess to God. No pious Orthodox Christian considers himself prepared for Easter unless he has first asked forgiveness, and obtained it, from everyone he knows and might have offended unknowingly.
That you do not know all this, and yet presume to reason from your ignorance, is pure arrogance on your part. That you cannot tolerate being told you do not have your facts in order means that you will never be right about anything. Enjoy yourself in your delusory ways.
"I am not the one who believes in fantasy, miracles and magic."
Neither am I. You pretended earlier to be familiar with things I've said in the past, but somehow you missed that. I'm not talking about what I believe, but about your false characterization of Christianity. If you want to critique it, the truth should suffice. You shouldn't go making things up.
You haven't read the Bible in a while, have you. Plus, you seem to forget that the only reason you are able to say these things freely is because of those "innocent lives" upon whose backs your standing on. Look at history and tell me I'm wrong. I dare you.
Dude. I think it's time you stop being so bitter about christianity and move on from whatever the hell it did to you. Don't post threads you've more or less posted before just to get answers you will disregard if it doesn't agree with your opinion.
What religion did to me is slight compared to what they continue to do. Those of your ilk would just love to have no resistance at all so that you could continue your immoral practices.
It is my view that all literalists and fundamentals hurt all of us who are moral religionists as well as those who do not believe. They all hurt their parent religions and everyone else who has a belief or not. They make us all into laughing stocks and should rethink their position. There is a Godhead but not the God of talking animals, genocidal floods and retribution. Beliefs in fantasy, miracles and magic are evil.
Oh, and that too. You always assume I am a Christian. I'm not, so please grow up and stop using religious identification as an insult. I'm an agnostic but I have friends who are christian and I don't enjoy you throwing them insults. It's honestly not a good ground for a healthy and sane debate.