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January 2, 2013
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Have you ever forgiven someone? If so, who needs God to forgive a second time?

:icongreatest-i-am:
Greatest-I-am Featured By Owner Jan 2, 2013
Have you ever forgiven someone? If so, who needs God to forgive a second time?

It is to the one sinned against to have the first right of forgiving when forgiving is possible. That would be most sins and crimes save murder.

I have had the pleasure to forgive on a few occasions. I will assume here that you have also forgiven someone at some point in your life. I have had that pleasure after the pain and hope you have as well. I have stepped up to ask for forgiveness as well after sinning against someone and am thankful that people can and do forgive. This benefit I also hope you have enjoyed.

Our consciousness and ego are what we use to judge what should be forgiven. If we lose that ability to judge or if it is usurped, damage is done to our consciousness and ego. It would negate intelligent use of our freedom of choice. It would negate our free will and deny us closure.

The Government has taken our freedom of the body from us with various restrictions. Everything from what we consume to our right to die with dignity. God has taken our freedom of choice after death from us with his judgement. Jesus has taken our freedom to face our accuser from us by saying --- only through me --- as our only judge.

These usurping of your free will to forgive means that you could never get closure from offence and hurt.
That would make Jesus as big of a disgrace as his father in ignoring our free willed choices. People judge constantly. We cannot help but to do so. To have our judgements usurped or ignored shows a flaw in the justice system you follow, be it secular or religious.

The God of the Jews who evolved to be the Christian God had a different view of forgiveness than Jesus had even though Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi. Jesus as God would be from the Christian perspective. Not the Jewish one that has the majority of Jews as never accepting Jesus as their messiah. The claims to judging and Jesus’ status, or not, --- as a messiah--- needs not be discussed in this O P.

“Jewish belief states that G-d doesn't forgive our sins against others until we ask and receive forgiveness directly from the person we wronged.”

“In Judaism, the acts of repentance and forgiveness are inextricably linked, and we must never let our anger toward others cause us to lose sight of self-reflection and cleansing.”

[link]

Did Christianity and their version of the Jewish God usurp your power and benefits of forgiving?
Does that negate your free will, and your right to forgive?

Regards
DL
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Devious Comments

:iconcarusmm:
carusmm Featured By Owner Jan 7, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
I neither forgive nor forget.
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:icongreatest-i-am:
Greatest-I-am Featured By Owner Jan 8, 2013
Must be tough to live with so much hate.

Regards
DL
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:iconxternal7:
xTernal7 Featured By Owner Jan 8, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
You are the legion.
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:iconrionx:
RiONX Featured By Owner Jan 4, 2013
i try, but it seems like the only people that i ever have to forgive are people trying to convince me that i need to forgive them, that makes the whole process a rather precarious one.
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:icongreatest-i-am:
Greatest-I-am Featured By Owner Jan 4, 2013
Seems that that is the way it should be.

It would be quite strange if those who do not need your forgiveness would be coming around asking for it.

I understand your situation but fail to see your problem if they actually did somerthing to you. If not, just tell them so.

Regards
DL
Reply
:iconrionx:
RiONX Featured By Owner Jan 4, 2013
The problem isn't really the people at all,i guess; it's a prevalent system of psychological road blocks keeping them from behaving in a human manner. i guess i could hold them responsible for giving up their humanity so easily, but which one of us hasn't experienced some kind of pain that didn't make us want to give up? should i really hold them responsible because they didn't have the strength to overcome their own weakness?
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:icongreatest-i-am:
Greatest-I-am Featured By Owner Jan 7, 2013
If people are not responsible for their own actions then who is?

Regards
DL
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:iconrionx:
RiONX Featured By Owner Jan 7, 2013
Mostly the masters and systems they've given reign over their consciousness.
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:icongreatest-i-am:
Greatest-I-am Featured By Owner Jan 8, 2013
You use the term they've given.

That 8indicates it was their choice to give so how is it that others must take the blame for what they have chosen to do?

Regards
DL
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:iconrionx:
RiONX Featured By Owner Jan 8, 2013
Why did Anikin Skywalker kill all of those Jedi children? Was it because he had access to a light saber or was it because he had been taught the religion of the Sith?
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:iconmci021:
mci021 Featured By Owner Jan 3, 2013  Hobbyist Artisan Crafter
"Did Christianity and their version of the Jewish God usurp your power and benefits of forgiving?"

Nope. Jesus and Christianity aren't living your life for you. They might be influencing your decisions, but that, along with those decisions, is something that's up to you. You decide whether you forgive others. You deal with the consequences of your decisions, not Jesus. If you really think Jesus is taking that responsibility away from you, try fucking up and saying it's Jesus' fault. See how far that gets you.

"Does that negate your free will, and your right to forgive?"

Only if you let it. As previously stated, it's up to you to decide whether or not to forgive someone. If you're looking to religion to do that for you, or worse, if you're trying to use religion as an excuse not to forgive, then you're missing the point of both religion and forgiveness.
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:icongreatest-i-am:
Greatest-I-am Featured By Owner Jan 4, 2013
Thanks for this.

I do not let religion decide much of anything for me although anything good that I find in any religious book I write on my heart.

I was thinking more of those I have forgiven who might think they also have to kowtow to a God for forgiveness when there is nothing for that God to forgive.

No debt needs to be paid twice and if a God demands it then he is immoral from my POV.

I am not an atheist nor do I believe in bible God but you and I are on the same basic page I think.

Regards
DL
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:iconsaeter:
Saeter Featured By Owner Jan 2, 2013
The Christian philosophy is that when a sin is committed it is committed against God and so the sinner must ask God for forgiveness. Thus the purpouse of vicarious redemption is that you can be forgiven of anything save not believing in Christ without ever asking the actually wronged party for forgiveness.
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:icongreatest-i-am:
Greatest-I-am Featured By Owner Jan 3, 2013
So then one can ignore the victim and just profit from God having his own son needlessly murdered.

Embracing human sacrifice and punishing the innocent instead of the guilty is a good form of justice is it?

Or is it more of an insane policy?

[link]

Regards
DL
Reply
:iconsaeter:
Saeter Featured By Owner Jan 3, 2013
I've sais this to you before that ALL religion ia inherently irrational.
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:icongreatest-i-am:
Greatest-I-am Featured By Owner Jan 3, 2013
I do not agree.
I would agree that the Abrahamic cults are.

FMPOV, religions are to seek God. Not find one and then try to impose him on others.

Regards
DL
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:iconsaeter:
Saeter Featured By Owner Jan 3, 2013
They are irrational because they are beliefs in unprovable claims.
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:icongreatest-i-am:
Greatest-I-am Featured By Owner Jan 4, 2013
Most recognize that they are myths. It is just the literalists and fundamentals who believe.

Regards
DL
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:iconsaeter:
Saeter Featured By Owner Jan 4, 2013
I think you give people too much credit as it is much easier to blindly follow than it is to
form your own opinions.
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:icongreatest-i-am:
Greatest-I-am Featured By Owner Jan 7, 2013
I do like to hope that people have more potential and yes, it is much easier to take the follower route and not think.

Regards
DL
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(1 Reply)
:iconbullet-magnet:
Bullet-Magnet Featured By Owner Jan 2, 2013
I haven't consciously forgiven someone so far as I can remember, but I struggle to hold a grudge for any length of time and eventually stop caring about past trespasses. I suppose that's the same thing?

I've always thought that Jesus' claim to be able to forgive us our sins, something we do to other people, to be one of the least humble and more monstrous statements he or anyone else has said. I was surprised to find CS Lewis in agreement with me on this. He wrote that anyone who makes such a statement must either be mad, as evil as the devil or the son of god (though as far as I'm concerned the latter two options are synonymous with the former). What I disagree with him on is the idea that were the son of god that that would make it acceptable, as I could not grant that right to god either, nor his offspring.
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:icongreatest-i-am:
Greatest-I-am Featured By Owner Jan 3, 2013
I like your atitude shown in your last.

Not your first but only from the POV that your way of healing does not include thinking of why the sin or evil was done to you and why you might do the same type of hurt to another. Forgiving the other also allows you to forgive yourself for the evil you must do to survive.

Let me explain.
Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.


Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.

Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.

Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

Regards
DL

----------------------------

Theistic evolution.
[link]
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:iconorangekrissy:
OrangeKrissy Featured By Owner Jan 2, 2013
So you're saying that if someone you ask for forgiveness doesn't forgive you neither will God?
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:icongreatest-i-am:
Greatest-I-am Featured By Owner Jan 3, 2013
Not quite. Many say they can fathom what an unfathomable God thinks but none can.

If your victim will deny himself the benefits of forgiving and closure then he is not mentally mature or ready to do so yet. If he never forgives, then he is actually hurting himself. Repenting is key and if you have learned from your mistake and resolved not to do it again, then you have the right to forgive yourself and move on.

As a Gnostic Christian, the Godhead I believe in is within you so there is not really an external God to run for forgiveness to. God cannot be a victim and it is to the victim to forgive and if he refuses a repenting person then he himself is not a good person.

Regards
DL
Reply
:iconsachi-pon:
Sachi-pon Featured By Owner Jan 2, 2013  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
aww it's okay! we all forgive you for making these stupid threads :aww:

hugs and kisses :heart:
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:iconunclegargy:
UncleGargy Featured By Owner Jan 2, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
To err is human and to forgive is divine. That's all you need to know.
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:icongreatest-i-am:
Greatest-I-am Featured By Owner Jan 3, 2013
So you do not forgive then?
I would not want to be your child or live in a mind full of grudges.

Regards
DL
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:iconunclegargy:
UncleGargy Featured By Owner Jan 3, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Its a saying. Crawl back under your stone..
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:iconlytrigian:
Lytrigian Featured By Owner Jan 2, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
You don't seem to have done sufficient research into the role of forgiveness in Christian practice.
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:icongreatest-i-am:
Greatest-I-am Featured By Owner Jan 3, 2013
You always say this kind of shit without ever correcting or offering an argument against. Yours is an ignorant and unloving character. Or just an immature mind.

I am well aware of the Christian requirements for salvation.

They must embrace human sacrifice and the notion that punishing the innocent instead of the guilty is a good form of justice.

Only a mind whose morals have been compromised will do so.

Any time you actually want to learn to improve your theology, I am here for you.

Regards
DL
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:iconlytrigian:
Lytrigian Featured By Owner Jan 3, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
I don't have to offer an "argument against". You are factually incorrect. If saying so is unloving then so be it, but correct knowledge is the opposite of ignorance. If you have that backward, then that explains much about your thinking.

Forgiving others, and being forgiven by others, is of PARAMOUNT importance in Christianity, and always has been. It's does not go too far to say that, regardless of what you "embrace", salvation is unavailable without it. One does not obtain forgiveness from God alone -- God will not forgive sins against others unless you first ask forgiveness from those you have offended. You do that first, and THEN confess to God. No pious Orthodox Christian considers himself prepared for Easter unless he has first asked forgiveness, and obtained it, from everyone he knows and might have offended unknowingly.

That you do not know all this, and yet presume to reason from your ignorance, is pure arrogance on your part. That you cannot tolerate being told you do not have your facts in order means that you will never be right about anything. Enjoy yourself in your delusory ways.
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:icongreatest-i-am:
Greatest-I-am Featured By Owner Jan 4, 2013
"delusory ways."

I am not the one who believes in fantasy, miracles and magic. Talking animals and water that parts on command. No genocidal son murdering God for me thanks.

"God will not forgive sins against others unless you first ask forgiveness from those you have offended."

How can you fathom this for your unfathomable God? You cannot. He works in mysterious ways that you cannot know so just who is delusional I wonder.

Regards
DL
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:iconlytrigian:
Lytrigian Featured By Owner Jan 4, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
"I am not the one who believes in fantasy, miracles and magic."

Neither am I. You pretended earlier to be familiar with things I've said in the past, but somehow you missed that. I'm not talking about what I believe, but about your false characterization of Christianity. If you want to critique it, the truth should suffice. You shouldn't go making things up.
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:icongreatest-i-am:
Greatest-I-am Featured By Owner Jan 7, 2013
Yet you think you know how God works.
Good luck with that.

Regards
DL
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:iconlytrigian:
Lytrigian Featured By Owner Jan 10, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
God doesn't work. I know what Christianity believes and practices. You're telling lies about it.
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:icongreatest-i-am:
Greatest-I-am Featured By Owner Jan 10, 2013
Which of the hundreds of sects are you talking about?

[link]

Regards
DL
Reply
:iconkillianseraphim:
KillianSeraphim Featured By Owner Jan 2, 2013  Student General Artist
I'm pretty sure there was a parable in the New Testament that shoots this argument out of the water. Something about sheep and goats. You should look it up.
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:icongreatest-i-am:
Greatest-I-am Featured By Owner Jan 3, 2013
Your Christian defence is noted by all. Thanks for giving points to my side.

It shows how sheep will try to profit from the murder of an innocent man instead of the guilty while goats will take the moral high ground and not profit from murder

Regards
DL
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:iconkillianseraphim:
KillianSeraphim Featured By Owner Jan 3, 2013  Student General Artist
You haven't read the Bible in a while, have you. Plus, you seem to forget that the only reason you are able to say these things freely is because of those "innocent lives" upon whose backs your standing on. Look at history and tell me I'm wrong. I dare you.
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:iconcatapultedcarcass:
CatapultedCarcass Featured By Owner Jan 2, 2013  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Who needs a god for anything?
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:icongreatest-i-am:
Greatest-I-am Featured By Owner Jan 3, 2013
Thanks for not speaking to the issue.

Regards
DL
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:iconcatapultedcarcass:
CatapultedCarcass Featured By Owner Jan 3, 2013  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
I think the assumptive nature of this thread is an issue.
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:icongreatest-i-am:
Greatest-I-am Featured By Owner Jan 4, 2013
Thanks for showing where the assumptions are wrong.
You have helped correct me quite a bit.

Regards
DL
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:iconcatapultedcarcass:
CatapultedCarcass Featured By Owner Jan 4, 2013  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Anytime, my main man. You want answers, you come to me.
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:iconeldingagunman:
EldingaGunman Featured By Owner Jan 2, 2013
Dude. I think it's time you stop being so bitter about christianity and move on from whatever the hell it did to you. Don't post threads you've more or less posted before just to get answers you will disregard if it doesn't agree with your opinion.
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:icongreatest-i-am:
Greatest-I-am Featured By Owner Jan 3, 2013
Bite me.

What religion did to me is slight compared to what they continue to do. Those of your ilk would just love to have no resistance at all so that you could continue your immoral practices.

It is my view that all literalists and fundamentals hurt all of us who are moral religionists as well as those who do not believe. They all hurt their parent religions and everyone else who has a belief or not. They make us all into laughing stocks and should rethink their position. There is a Godhead but not the God of talking animals, genocidal floods and retribution. Beliefs in fantasy, miracles and magic are evil.

[link]

They also do much harm to their own.

African witches and Jesus
[link]

Jesus Camp 1of 9
[link]

Promoting death to Gays.
[link]

For evil to grow my friends, all good people need do is nothing.
Fight them when you can. It is your duty to our fellow man.

Oh wait. You are one of the evil ones.

Regards
DL



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:iconeldingagunman:
EldingaGunman Featured By Owner Jan 3, 2013
Pretty sure I'm not evil. I'm just sick and tired of writing long, time-consuming and remotely intelligent counter arguments to your posts, only to get ignored and insulted by yours truly.
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:icongreatest-i-am:
Greatest-I-am Featured By Owner Jan 4, 2013
Try a counter argument against the links I have given you. No Christian has had the balls to so far.

Regards
DL
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:iconeldingagunman:
EldingaGunman Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013
Oh, and that too. You always assume I am a Christian. I'm not, so please grow up and stop using religious identification as an insult. I'm an agnostic but I have friends who are christian and I don't enjoy you throwing them insults. It's honestly not a good ground for a healthy and sane debate.

Learn some humble pie.
Reply
:iconrunespainter:
RunesPainter Featured By Owner Jan 2, 2013  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
I take it you're Jewish? (I want to be sure before I answer)
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