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December 22, 2012
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"Being raised Catholic is worse that sexual abuse"

:iconblackpoppies:
blackpoppies Featured By Owner Dec 22, 2012  Hobbyist Photographer
It's not the first time he's made the claim, but recently Richard Dawkins has come under fire for claiming that the emotional trauma of being raised Catholic is worse than, and outlasts, the emotional trauma of child abuse. He cites the testimony of an Irish Catholic woman who on one occasion was molested in a car by a priest, and at the same time a protestant friend had died and she'd been told that her friend would burn in Hell - according to this woman, the sex abuse was 'yucky' but she got over it, whereas the image of her friend burning in Hell tormented her for years.

I can sort of see where Dawkins is coming from here. In my opinion, there are certainly cases where religious upbringing almost amounts to child abuse. My problem is this: Richard Dawkins is not qualified to make this claim. He was neither abused as a child (to my knowledge), nor was he raised Catholic. He cites the evidence of one woman who encountered an incident of minor, although undoubtedly wrong and shocking, sexual abuse, but was taught an extreme version of Catholicism in a very harsh way. She cannot speak for all children of Catholic families, nor all victims of child abuse.

There are different shades of both things. Some people recover from child abuse, some don't; some people are affected horribly by a Catholic upbringing, some are not. This is something which will be different in ever case, and I certainly don't think that Dawkins is in a position to quantify it as 'one is worse than the other'.

Thoughts?
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Devious Comments

:iconcalkubo:
Calkubo Featured By Owner Dec 30, 2012
Don't know who that guy is, but he's obviously an attention whore.
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:iconspudfuzz:
Spudfuzz Featured By Owner Dec 30, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Dunno who Dawkings is but I didn't like this bit here:

"Richard Dawkins is not qualified to make this claim. He was neither abused as a child (to my knowledge), nor was he raised Catholic"

You don't need to be a professional in a field or necessarily have any personal experience to have an opinion on an issue. That logic would lead to things like "Oh you're not a politician so you don't need to know about this bill we're going to pass that's probably going to be detrimental to your income". Seemingly unrelated experiences can also lend clues to individuals about what another may feel or think about something they going through.

Sure the background education or experience helps a lot, but as long you've got a mind that's capable of critical thinking and introspection, that should be more than enough regardless of what conclusion you reach. Similarly, if he had been one or the other, would you have said he isn't qualified to make the claim because he is clearly biased?
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:icondragonsnapalm:
DragonsNapalm Featured By Owner Dec 30, 2012
Tell the truth, I'd put a lot of religious upbrinings on par with child abuse. Not necessarily what the parents do unto the child, but the long-term negative effects of what the upbrining does.

To use myself as an example, I experienced both growing up: I was abused as a child during my later years, and raised as a devout Catholic during my earlier years. And if I could wave a wand and eliminate any of those periods of time, I wouldn't hesitate to wave away my Catholicism.
The negative outcome of my abuse came in many different forms: anti-social behavior, animosity towards my parents, and very inverted mentality that lasted me well into my teens.
My Catholicism did me worse. From the time I was very young, I was taught the Catholic definition of "sin". I was taught what it was to sin, and the everlasting consequences (after my death) of sin. Whereas the effects of my abuse lasted a few years after it ceased, my dogmatic Catholic nature plagued me longer still after separation from my evangelical family, and would've lasted longer if I maintained them.
I was constantly afraid of the things my religion implied. I was taught that if I didn't devote myself wholly to the Church and it's morals, I was spiritually doomed. Imagine hitting puberty, while convinced that every sexual thought or action you committed could condemn you to an eternity of torture. Or, if you would, imagine all the prejudices instilled in the Catholic mind against gays, atheists, members of other religions and ethical classifications.

Both abuse and extreme religion leave lasting scars upon the minds of people growing up, and if it instilled in the mind of a child, the religion lasts a lifetime whereas abuse lasts only a certain period of time before it diminishes.
So, as an ex-Catholic, formerly abused child who's all grown up now, I'd say that if every child growing up in a Catholic family has had to endure what I've had, I'd have to agree with him.

Abuse hurts the child, but a religious mindset that's devoid of compassion or realism hurts both the child and everyone around them. But hey, there's always moderate religion.
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:iconvisionoftheworld:
VISIONOFTHEWORLD Featured By Owner Dec 28, 2012
Were you raised catholic? If not, then how do you see where Dawkins is coming from?
I can think of a few crazy religions that are worse than being catholic. Most protestants like the baptists, for example, and lutherans, are pretty fucked up. The people you hear about walking around mumbling in public and then randomly going up to people to yell at them about the baby jeezus- those nutty people are usually protestant. Richard Dawkins doesn't have much credibility... you are aware of this, I hope.
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:iconsaintartaud:
saintartaud Featured By Owner Dec 28, 2012  Professional General Artist
It's hard to take the guy seriously when he utters such nonsense.
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:iconneurotype:
neurotype Featured By Owner Dec 27, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
I'm with Higgs; he's really a fundamentalist about these things. :|
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:iconmclandis:
Mclandis Featured By Owner Dec 27, 2012  Hobbyist Photographer
Well, considering that Dawkins is prone to his own bouts of misogyny, I would put about as much stock in him as I would in the psychic hotline.
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:iconkaikaku:
kaikaku Featured By Owner Dec 27, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
Dawkins really needs to put his boots in his mouth sometimes. >_<
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:iconoprahwinfreyx:
OprahWinfreyX Featured By Owner Dec 26, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
I was raised catholic and although it did really suck I wouldn't go as far as to say it was like child abuse. Ireland is fairly catholic state so I would imagine the catholic teachings are a bit more harsh. I have big resentments to religion but unfortunately I don't agree with Dawkins on this one.
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:iconvulpimo:
Vulpimo Featured By Owner Dec 26, 2012
Dawkins is just an undereducated loudmouth, actually. He gets many fans just because it's rather popular to be an atheist nowadays (oh, look how smart I am, despite the fact that half of the things I'm saying doesn't make any sense XD) and he writes what people want. He's Justin Bieber of science, actually.
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:iconsteampunk-desperado:
Steampunk-Desperado Featured By Owner Dec 26, 2012
You rage about how he just sputters things people want to hear, yet you're doing the same thing only Pro-Catholic/Religion version. I guess it's true what they say, takes a hypocrite to know one.
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:iconvulpimo:
Vulpimo Featured By Owner Dec 27, 2012
'yet you're doing the same thing only Pro-Catholic/Religion version.'

You based this only on the fact I dared to criticize Dawkins? ^^
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:iconsteampunk-desperado:
Steampunk-Desperado Featured By Owner Dec 27, 2012
Dared? Typical. :lol: You feel like a hero for "daring" to speak up. Right, no. I can see that this is all just going to go in one ear and out the other so I won't even bother.
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:iconvulpimo:
Vulpimo Featured By Owner Dec 27, 2012
Actually, it was kinda sarcastic. For definition of sarcasm, go to wikipedia.

And saying I'm Pro Catholic just because I don't like Dawkins-> kinda pathetic ^^
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:iconsteampunk-desperado:
Steampunk-Desperado Featured By Owner Dec 27, 2012
I didn't say you were Pro-Catholic, I said your argument was. :facepalm: I see my efforts are wasted.
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:iconearthtalon:
Earthtalon Featured By Owner Dec 28, 2012  Student Digital Artist
"You rage about how he just sputters things people want to hear, yet you're doing the same thing only Pro-Catholic"
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:iconsteampunk-desperado:
Steampunk-Desperado Featured By Owner Dec 28, 2012
Saying they act one way doesn't mean I'm saying they are that way. The argument they made seemed Pro-Catholic...I didn't say that they were for sure Catholic themselves. If the message got muddled, I apologize.
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:iconvulpimo:
Vulpimo Featured By Owner Dec 27, 2012
go back to your post pls ^^
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:iconsteampunk-desperado:
Steampunk-Desperado Featured By Owner Dec 27, 2012
Go back to your brain plz. :aww:
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(1 Reply)
:iconkalinka-shadows:
Kalinka-Shadows Featured By Owner Dec 26, 2012
The problem with this is as follows.

Richard Dawkins is looking at this the wrong way, and he is unfortunately looking at it from a UK Perspective rather than a US Perspective. The problem is this. Christianity both Catholic and Protestant tends to use physical, emotional, and sexual abuse of women and children as a means to ensure conformity. It's particularly bad when dealing with children. The more religious they are, the more criminal and abusive they become.

The state is failing in that it will not protect it's children from sexual abuse, and even permit immunity from prosecution or lighter sentencing of parents who murder their children. Social services for foster care systems are absolutely abysmal, and children basically enjoy no rights of speech and religious expression. If you are a child, and you disagree with your parents on religious issues, it's like living in a third world country, because in the US, parents effectively own their children.
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:iconsiegeonthorstadt:
siegeonthorstadt Featured By Owner Dec 26, 2012
lets see. almost all of the serial killers are victims of sexual abuse. 50% of catholics support a war that killed millions. so far i can only see an equation
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:iconcinderblockstudios:
CinderBlockStudios Featured By Owner Dec 26, 2012  Professional Traditional Artist
The problem with Dawkins' argument is that it's blatant hating on the Catholic Church. Yeah some people are effected negatively by their surroundings, but it's not something that is only within the church. It happens everywhere. School, other religions, sport leagues, scouts.

People look at a few cases and think that the organization is responsible. The problem is that people don't hold people accountable for their actions, they always will blame the system.
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:iconsvataben:
Svataben Featured By Owner Dec 26, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
I don't think you can compare like he did, it's ridiculous. I agree with your interpretation. :nod:

Apart from that, there is no reason to use "almost". Some religious upbringings ARE abuse. It doesn't much matter what religion, but more how extremely it's practiced.
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:iconlytrigian:
Lytrigian Featured By Owner Dec 25, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
Oh, so Richard Dawkins takes testimonials now? I guess we can buy into homeopathy then. It has a shitload of testimonials in support. No quality, double-blinded, placebo-controlled studies, but Dawkins seems to feel that rigor isn't particularly necessary, so why bother?

His example isn't that of a typical Catholic. It's of a typical idiot. What kind of twat says that to a kid, one that a priest has molested no less?
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:iconsherberttcat:
SherbertTCat Featured By Owner Dec 25, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Once again, she's running his mouth under the guise of an "enlightened" Atheist, while showing what a no-nothing shithead he is.
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:iconsmkiller:
Smkiller Featured By Owner Dec 25, 2012  Hobbyist
she's running his mouth

WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!
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:iconferres:
Ferres Featured By Owner Dec 24, 2012
It's pretty bad, especially in places where separation of church and state doesn't exist.

The more empathetic you are the more damaging it is. They take away children's innocence in one hand and pretend to defend it with the other.
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:icondragonflae:
Dragonflae Featured By Owner Dec 23, 2012
What are you talking about? Being raised Catholic is sexual abuse :lol:
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:icongalacticgoat:
GalacticGoat Featured By Owner Dec 29, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
From someone who was raised Catholic, I laughed.
Seriously some folks here get offended far too easily xP

I would say Merry Christmas like Sherbertcat but since its past that and I'm pretty sure I remember you aren't even Christian its kinda pointless. I guess Happy New Years? That works, right.
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:icondragonflae:
Dragonflae Featured By Owner Dec 30, 2012
I'm not Christian, no, but I do enjoy Christmas. I think I watched A Muppets Christmas Carol a few too many times, growing up.
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:icongalacticgoat:
GalacticGoat Featured By Owner Dec 30, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
lol, I love that version of Christmas carol :3 I enjoy Xmas as well.
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:iconearthtalon:
Earthtalon Featured By Owner Dec 28, 2012  Student Digital Artist
Nice joke there.
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:iconsolum-ipsum:
Solum-Ipsum Featured By Owner Dec 25, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
YULE never forget the HOLY moment you got BAPTASED!!!
*cunt punts *Dragonflae and runs away cackling* :trollface:
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:icondragonflae:
Dragonflae Featured By Owner Dec 26, 2012
Merry Christmas to you, too, Ipsum :XD:
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:iconsolum-ipsum:
Solum-Ipsum Featured By Owner Dec 26, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
:hug: Merry Christmas... Yule... um... okay, basically whatever you eclectics feel like celebrating for the Winter Solstice. :D
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:icondragonflae:
Dragonflae Featured By Owner Dec 27, 2012
I actually enjoy Christmas, thank you. Blame the Muppets.
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:iconsherberttcat:
SherbertTCat Featured By Owner Dec 25, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
From someone who was raised Catholic, Fuck you.
Oh, and Merry Christmas.
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:icondragonflae:
Dragonflae Featured By Owner Dec 26, 2012
Oh, take a joke, hon. You'll be much happier when you learn to do so.
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:iconstrangemass:
Strangemass Featured By Owner Dec 24, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
BA DA TING.
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:iconb-gata:
B-gata Featured By Owner Dec 23, 2012
What he actually said wasn't so extreme as that. But it was still worded badly.
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:iconsherberttcat:
SherbertTCat Featured By Owner Dec 25, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Like everything else the man says.
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:iconsuiag:
Suiag Featured By Owner Dec 23, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
I agree - you can't judge every Catholic because of what happened to one
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:iconferres:
Ferres Featured By Owner Dec 24, 2012
It's about the institution not the individuals. Not judging the victims.
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:iconpenhuin:
Penhuin Featured By Owner Dec 23, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I was raised Catholic and my family disowned me.
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:iconspudfuzz:
Spudfuzz Featured By Owner Dec 30, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I was raised Catholic and I disowned them. Strange world we live in. :confused:
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:iconbullet-magnet:
Bullet-Magnet Featured By Owner Dec 23, 2012
Is this the article from the Daily Mail?
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:iconvicsor-s3:
Vicsor-S3 Featured By Owner Dec 23, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Except he follows up that exact same sentence by making the distinction that there's of course a difference between merely being molested and being raped. From what I could make of it he isn't making a value statement on what is worse, he's presenting the case that Christian indoctrination can qualify as mental abuse.

Also, Richard Dawkins was sexually abused (although not raped) as a child.
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:iconkausawolf:
kausawolf Featured By Owner Dec 23, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
I'm gonna politely disagree with this guy.
While yes, sometimes the images presented in Catholicism are worrisome and scary, there is no way it is as scaring or traumatizing as sexual abuse.
Catholicism teaches you a belief, love, and tolerance (for the most part) and sexual abuse violates you and makes you feel of less than a person.
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:iconbullet-magnet:
Bullet-Magnet Featured By Owner Dec 23, 2012
I knew someone from a Catholic family who was suicidal at age five because of what she'd been told in church. She'd been terrified out of her wits by tales of hell and the devil and then told that only children have their place in heaven assured. She wanted to die before she was at risk of hell.

And she was absolutely right. If that's the theology you take seriously it is the logical conclusion.
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:iconkausawolf:
kausawolf Featured By Owner Dec 24, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
Yeah I never understood the idea of Hell.
"All loving God" unless you sin, then he'll burn you and torture you forever after you die.
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