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December 11, 2012
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the nature of arguments

:iconggordons:
GGordonS Featured By Owner Dec 11, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Arguments are bound to separate people, dividing them into groups. We have so many walls separating people from other people.
If these divisions get really charged with emotion they become "flammable" and ignite all kinds of aggressive action, such as rebellions, wars, and hatred.
How can an argument solve a problem?
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:iconbullet-magnet:
Bullet-Magnet Featured By Owner Dec 13, 2012
Arguments aren't the cause of division, they are a result of them.
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:iconggordons:
GGordonS Featured By Owner Dec 13, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Wow, thats a different take on the situation entirely and the shoe fits :)
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:icontheawsomeopossum:
TheAwsomeOpossum Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012
Argument can't solve a problem, but the question really is; do problems cause or remove problems? Which is worse from your perspective... a place where lots of people disagree with each other, or a place where everybody is forced to hold the same opinion? I'd prefer the first, tbh... that's just the way I look at it.
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:iconggordons:
GGordonS Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Everybody being forced to hold the same opinion is when people are disagreeing the most lol
Thats the kind of situation that makes anybody thankful they can have a voice
but my voice being heard doesn't mean I have to disrespect you, arguing and calling you wrong
I'm on a more personal level saying we would have more contentment if we stop at least one argument thats ongoing with someone in our personal lives, like say, that guy that always wants to argue we all know. If we don't take the bait and argue with a family member or a co-worker or something like that, we do ourselves a favor every time.
It got very muddled, the political system is one thing, but I'm trying more to make a comment on personal lives and dealing with people.
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:icontheawsomeopossum:
TheAwsomeOpossum Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012
"Everybody being forced to hold the same opinion is when people are disagreeing the most lol"

I mean inherently... like through social structures... not through physical force.

"Thats the kind of situation that makes anybody thankful they can have a voice
but my voice being heard doesn't mean I have to disrespect you, arguing and calling you wrong"

Definitely. It's better to be polite in my opinion too. But sometimes I do think it is necessary to point out somebody wrong; it's just best to do it in a very kind way as to avoid other difficulties one might have.

"I'm on a more personal level saying we would have more contentment if we stop at least one argument thats ongoing with someone in our personal lives, like say, that guy that always wants to argue we all know. If we don't take the bait and argue with a family member or a co-worker or something like that, we do ourselves a favor every time"

Oh, I'd agree there too. It's just I don't think argument is totally useless. It creates problems, definitely, but it's not a total problem maker.

"It got very muddled, the political system is one thing, but I'm trying more to make a comment on personal lives and dealing with people."

That's the best type of commitment to make imho =).

Best of Wishes,
-TAO
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:icontheawsomeopossum:
TheAwsomeOpossum Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012
Woops, mixed up the sentence there. It should be "Argument can't usually solve problems, but the question really is; do arguments cause or remove problems?
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:iconsinisterwonderland:
sinisterwonderland Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
there is a difference between an argument and a debate. debates are positive and can help resolve issues. arguments are essentially contradiction and are a bit pointless, i'd agree. but if nothing was debated, we might as well be in a socialist state, and we all know how they turn out.
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:iconggordons:
GGordonS Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Thats it, thats the part right there. debate emphasizes something very different, like keeping it a discussion, where as argument is very personal, not talking about a thing so much as talking about the person who represents it. I think the difference is in the attitude, drama never solved anything, we can address the problems without losing our temper or feeling hurt about them... where it needs it of course you stand for what you stand for and don't back down from your position. I don't know about any of you, but I can't think right when I'm angry, how could anybody else
Im not in the politics section because I'm not talking about that really, I'm talking about philosophy. More on line with like dealing with other people in personal life.
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:iconsinisterwonderland:
sinisterwonderland Featured By Owner Dec 13, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
i see what you mean. i suppose arguments are part of human nature, in a way, although i also do not see the point to them. i think that when emotions are running high it can often be almost impossible to just calm down and talk, though.
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:icondebra-marie:
Debra-Marie Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist Artisan Crafter
Unfortunately this is the internet, where people use a computer screen to hide themselves, therefore acting as rude and mean as they possibly can.
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:iconggordons:
GGordonS Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
I really don't care, I think its funny, I'd a probably done it too a couple years ago lol
Its just words on a screen, if you said some of that rude and mean to me in person I'd probably laugh too
that ain't mean, more like a joke. fists, guns and knives getting our fellow americans killed by people blowing their tops about something that doesn't matter like these words or a look or money or anything, that's mean. Thats what I want to end, less needless violence. Of course we stand for what we as individuals choose, but people wage wars over arguments in personal life that just don't matter, people matter, not ideas in our heads.
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:icontotally-dead:
Totally-dead Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
Not as we possibly can. We get banned for that.

You, fuckwit, you.
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:icondebra-marie:
Debra-Marie Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist Artisan Crafter
I see it all the time in the religious/political forums. You think people aren't being rude there?

And thanks for proving my point and being rude to me.
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:icontotally-dead:
Totally-dead Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
... Huh. Maybe you actually DO deserve some rudeness rather than a harmless joke.

But not as rude as they possibly can. If I wanted to I could go into a very detailed insult where I systematically insult your family, your social context, your evident preferences, potential stereotypes, etc... in a manner that is so far from acceptable that if you reported me or an admin saw it, I would probably get suspended for few days.
And I am fairly certain that I lack imagination in that context.

But because of the overhanging powers that be, I will settle for considering you a few neurones short of the capacity for normal human intellectual function, IE calling you a stupid, oversensitive pontificator, who takes everything far too seriously, while even misunderstanding the base point.
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:iconggordons:
GGordonS Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Just a question folks, bear with me here.
I posted this because I want to discuss this, I can learn from what you say maybe even visa versa if we both listen (or try to HA!)
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:iconskulkey:
skulkey Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Professional Digital Artist
i think arguments unite people. if an argument erupts into violence, it is only because both people were prepared to do violence - they are united in that common stupidity.

i have gained great insight by arguing with people in the politics forum, both about other's beliefs and about my own. during an argument, two people are united in the discussion of a common problem. there is always an opportunity in that setting to inform the other person of things they may not have previously considered or known about. that is a very good thing, indeed.
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:iconggordons:
GGordonS Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
I suppose information is very linked to power.
I'm glad for the insight.
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:iconskulkey:
skulkey Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Professional Digital Artist
:thumbsup:
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:iconsaintartaud:
saintartaud Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Professional General Artist
So what exactly do you think all those suffragists in the 19th century were doing? Sitting on their hands and playing nice? Sometimes you need to argue in order to change people's mind.

Also, my tendency with your kind of argument (o the irony!), that we should just never disagree etc., is that it dismisses the value of critically thinking. If we never argue on particular points, we just accept whatever, because why resist? Things are OK as they are, status quo is fine, don't rock the boat, it's just going to bring discord. Well, I've not rocked the boat plenty, and it has often led to dissatisfaction and frustration, because problems weren't getting addressed and my voice wasn't being heard. There are ways to argue without being a total ass.

There's also such thing as tact, knowing when it is appropriate to argue and when it isn't.
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:iconggordons:
GGordonS Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Yea I like that, sort of like there being a time and place where appropriate, right?
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:iconsaintartaud:
saintartaud Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Professional General Artist
Sure. You don't want to take everything someone says whenever and make a point about it. There are also instances where people are quibbling over details and not looking at the larger picture.

But to say argumentation in general never accomplishes anything is like...well, ignoring how change happens in a society. US women didn't get the right to vote by playing nice and never arguing their point. I'm not even sure guys like MLK or Gandhi would support that. Sometimes you need to make a case for your cause or values. That's all arguing is, ultimately. It doesn't have to be the heated emotional debate you see on Fox News.
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:iconggordons:
GGordonS Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Yea!

These heros of social change were very composed people who thought very deeply and took a stand without the drama, but really took the bull by the horns and did something quite a bit stronger than the word argument suggests. I don't see these guys as letting their emotions go wild, they were passionate and more than effected by the issues that they were standing to, but they weren't like wild, they had focus and knew how to maintain dignity and poise. the heated debate on Fox, thats just all talk, but its more than talk because it upsets millions of people! I'm just sitting here like, man, I got CONNED out of feeling good by listening to some people argue.
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:iconsaintartaud:
saintartaud Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Professional General Artist
I hate arguing semantics, but in think case it feels kinda necessary. Traditionally in philosophy, the word "argument" has been used without negative connotations and more or less matches one of the definitions my dictionary gives: "a reason or set of reasons given with the aim of persuading others that an action or idea is right or wrong."

So you need to be clear about what you mean here. I would say a heated argument over very widely diverging opinions that spins out of control is really what you're criticizing. And I doubt too many people are going to defend that, unless they're so oblivious that they think they're absolutely right about everything.
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:iconggordons:
GGordonS Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
I guess I'm using the word with a pre assumed negative connotation.
When I'm angry that anger tricks me into thinking I'm right about everything! I think this can be applied to society at large - when I'm angry I can't really see things correctly. The anger blinds me, so thus it does become like I'm totally oblivious to other people, of course I am very rarely right about things, but when I'm angry and arguing I can't see the other person's side at all.
The thing about anger and argument is yes it absolutely gets people moving when it comes to taking action, but in a conversation we would do good to remember things like grandpa used to say "don't get ahead of yourself kid" "woa hold it" "cool your jets" most of all so I wind up easy going and don't ruin my peace and happiness chasing some kind of anger or argument.
You know, I'm not a writer because I know what I think but I always assume putting it on paper won't be clumsy lol
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:iconsaintartaud:
saintartaud Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Professional General Artist
That's why I think it's good to learn mindfulness. It's hard, though, because people are inclined to get lost in their feelings and lose sight of what's really going on. Alternately, I think it's possible to channel those emotions toward something more constructive and therapeutic, but again that takes some control.

So yes, I agree with you on your basic point. You should check out non-violent communication, you might find it interesting.
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:iconsmkiller:
Smkiller Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist
Arguments are a necessity. Without them, the world remains static.
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:iconggordons:
GGordonS Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Sometimes it seems as if the world has made no great changes despite the tide of evidence given just on this forum.
The heart of the issue still effects us all, like oppression, oppression changes hands through conflict, certainly, but conflict doesn't seem to sate the thirst to oppress. Thoughts?
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:icondivyesh31:
divyesh31 Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist Artist
very much true
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:icondivyesh31:
divyesh31 Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist Artist
I got gift - Mug from my colleagues. there is a Note on a Mug "Agreements give better results than arguments" I am not completely agree with this.
Arguments are part of many core systems /processes.
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:iconggordons:
GGordonS Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Yes of course.
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:iconenuocale:
EnuoCale Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
So what? Everyone should run free and wild like the high old ones, and have no need to convince anyone of anything as nothing but mad babble shall escape their dark lips? :iconcthulhuplz:
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:iconggordons:
GGordonS Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
No, not exactly what I had in mind. The changes that occur from arguments are not sufficient to solve the problems of humanity
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:iconenuocale:
EnuoCale Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
That's because bad people are making them, too, and most people have the ulterior motives of personal indulgence to a greater degree than they allow others behind their ideas.

What's your solution then? One person with perfect ideals brainwash everyone else?
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:icontotally-dead:
Totally-dead Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
That would be my solution if it would work and I was that person. :paranoid:
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:iconenuocale:
EnuoCale Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
I'd split it half and half. Just have a team of crack inceptionists to plant a few relevant ideas, but let people gradually realize them their own ways.
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:icontotally-dead:
Totally-dead Featured By Owner Dec 13, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
... Well you just did the normal form of inception anyway.
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:iconggordons:
GGordonS Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
O God forbid that! That is what the idea of AntiChrist is, a perfect person brainwashing us!
I don't believe in bad people, just like I don't believe in good people. I believe each individual needs to address issues in themselves first of all to maintain inner peace, thats what the world at large needs: more inner peace and self sacrifice, thats the solution, but that's even harder than giving a good argument!
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:iconggordons:
GGordonS Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
It's funny how argumentative this thread is just by my tone, right?
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:iconcarusmm:
carusmm Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
The world changes through argument. To be pacifist is a declaration of defeat.
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:iconggordons:
GGordonS Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
I'm not advocating pacifism or blind obedience, but I am suggesting that the change from argument does not go deep enough to improve human nature such that we can live in a utopia by arguing our way there. And of course I appreciate your feedback!
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:icondivine--apathia:
divine--apathia Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist Photographer
Most things you say are usually quite pointless, but this, this I agree with. No one has ever conquered anyone by being 'nice'.
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:icontotally-dead:
Totally-dead Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
Define conquered...? :paranoid:
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:iconcarusmm:
carusmm Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
An argument is better than a fist.
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:iconggordons:
GGordonS Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
They really don't compare well hahaha hard to get your teeth chipped from words :)
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:iconwolfyspice:
WolfySpice Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist Artist
Because your premise is false. Arguments are not bound to separate people. I have brought people, and others have brought me, towards a common position through a persuasive argument.
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:iconggordons:
GGordonS Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
I understand, but what if both sides are unwilling to give in at all?
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:iconwolfyspice:
WolfySpice Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist Artist
That's up to them, but it does not bind parties to arguments to separation.
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:iconsiantjudas:
siantjudas Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012   Digital Artist
I've brought people into my pants with a good argument.
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:iconwolfyspice:
WolfySpice Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist Artist
Misrepresentation isn't much of an argument.
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:icontotally-dead:
Totally-dead Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
I have got people into my pants without misrepresenting anything.
...
My pants fitted them perfectly.
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