This debate becomes particularly thorny because it involves the question about when a life begins. When does a person begin to exist? Everyone has their own thoughts on the matter and unless we could conclusively prove when life begins, the charge of murder of the person/fetus/zygote/cell cluster still stands in the minds of many. This is why for many people abortion is a big problem and such a hot button issue.
I've got a very complex opinion on abortion, but to make it simple, let's put it like this ---> Basically, I'm against abortion, BUT I am definitely pro-legalisation. How so? I do believe abortion is a sad choice and that women who made it must be having really good reasons. On the other hand, however, many women are litterally FORCED into abortion, against their will, because, for example, their parents don't like her having an affair with "that guy", or for any other reasons. In that case, abortion is no longer a choice, is it?
Anyway, I consider abortion to be really the last of the final choices and that every other reasons for keeping the baby should be considered first. But then, once the choice is made, to terminate the pregnancy, I mean, the woman should be given all the medical and, above all, moral support to make this process end up safely and without major damage to her psyche and body.
In other words, if we really can't save the life of the kid, let's at least save the life of the woman.
ToastedGhostsFeatured By OwnerDec 5, 2013Hobbyist Digital Artist
I believe in the phrases, "Adoption, not abortion" and "Your mom was pro-life." Basically, if you are raped or get drunk and, you know... From the moment the reproductive cells unite, a life is created. Do you really want to destroy something that never had a chance to live? Think of what could happen. Think of it as if it were you being aborted. If you don't want the child, don't engage in intercourse. If you're pregnant, do not abort! After you give birth, if you still don't want the child, give it up for adoption!
Then you believe in a blatantly false statement, as my mom is quite pro-choice, as are many parents.
If I were aborted, I would have gone from no consciousness to no consciousness. I never would have had the capacity to care. I don't see how it would be any different than if my parents just decided to cuddle on the night I was conceived.
You believe in forcing a woman who has been raped to go through the financial, emotional, social, and physical burden of pregnancy and childbirth? You favor punishing her for being raped.
If I was aborted then my parents would be happier. Don't lie to yourself and think otherwise. The vast majority of our parents gave up an incredible amount to have you. More than you know and more than THEY know. Also, a fetus has no cognitive functions therefore it would not realize it is alive, let alone aborted.
You'll understand more about "intercourse" when you're older. You are ignorant to both sex and childbirth. Giving birth is not something the majority of people will do just to do.
I did not see any words that were poorly chosen from a grammatical standpoint. Don't beat yourself up in that regard. It was the content I took issue with. You were told by women thus you believe it. Do not make that mistake again though. Believe nothing without proof and evidence behind it.
From the moment the reproductive cells unite, a life is created.
First of all, no it isn't. At conception, the "life" that you are talking about looks like this en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bla… How exactly is this thing a "baby?" The only way you can claim it to be human is that it has human DNA, just like a cancer cell does.
Second, even if we accept life beginning at conception, why does that matter? Being alive confers nothing special on anything. In fact, if you actually look up miscarriage statistics, a majority of conceptions never make it to week 5 due to rejection by the mother's own body (this can be caused by something as minor as the fetus having a different blood type). Tell me again how every life is sacred?
Think of what could happen. Think of it as if it were you being aborted.
Umm...I wouldn't be around to have this discussion, nor would I be able to care. A fetus is inert, unlike the mother.
If you don't want the child, don't engage in intercourse.
And that's not gonna happen. For one, consent to sex is not consent to being pregnant any more than owning a house is consenting to robbery. Most sex is for non-reproductive purposes, something which makes sense given how we evolved. You're also ignoring sexual assault and incest victims, as well as women with life or health threatening pregnancies.
Humans evolved. We didn't just spring for from the earth becouse a 2,000 year old fairy tale written by man claims we did. Ever major scientific discipline and major supports evolution and its a long proven fact.
"First of all, it is life."
This means nothing at all. Its not even really alive. Its a clump of cells.
It's life in the same way a paramecium is life. It is not, however, a person until birth. Interestingly enough, that's exactly what your own Bible says as well.
Second of all, we didn't evolve.
Let's see here, every single major scientific discipline supports the idea, not to mention nothing in biology makes sense without the Theory of Evolution. The alternative is either special creation by a deity, which has absolutely no evidence to back it up whatsoever and is completely untestable, or we were genetically engineered by aliens, which ironically is more plausible than creation ex nihilo by a deity.
ToastedGhostsFeatured By OwnerDec 5, 2013Hobbyist Digital Artist
That wasn't an example for that instance. There, I was talking about irresponsible people that are my age, like 14, or somewhere around that. For rape, that's something that can't be stopped. If somebody tries to rape you, you try to defend yourself. Kick the man or woman who wants to do such a thing. All he/she wants is power, and he/she sure as heck won't get it from me.
ToastedGhostsFeatured By OwnerDec 5, 2013Hobbyist Digital Artist
Well, if it does get to that, there's noting you can do. Except pray that nothing worse happens. Just don't kill the child. Who knows, maybe it'll get miscarried, anyway, so you don't have to kill it. The last part was harsh, but I'm just trying to explain.
You think the last part is harsh? Wait until you realize what you actually mean. A woman who has been raped, in your opinion, despite all of that horrible trauma that has happened to her, she now must go through nine months of pregnancy that will place a heavy social, physical, emotional, and financial burden on her and then she must experience the most physically painful thing she will likely deal with not to mention the emotional, social, and financial repercussions, all to either raise a child that is a walking reminder of the worst day of her life or to give the child away and have that experience be all for nothing.
People have been tortured and experienced less shit than that.
ToastedGhostsFeatured By OwnerDec 5, 2013Hobbyist Digital Artist
Just listen. A LIFE=A LIFE. Think about all the careless people who purposely KILL their child. I'm not talking about abortion here, I'm talking about abuse. A child is a good thing to have. It pays off. I've heard from MANY parents who didn't want a child, but they kept it. And they LOVED it. Being LOVED feels good. A CHILD needs love, not DEATH. Just see another person's point of view! Please just TRY.
No, a child is not a universally good thing to have. I've heard and seen many parents who do not like their child or regret having him/her. If anecdotal evidence is legitimate now then by all means let's play this game. But it's not.
Why on Earth would you have vaginal sex if you're not trying to create life.
I mean. Obviously there is no 100% clear cut method of not getting pregnant, but with all the options of getting birth control, contraceptives, and having easy access to each of these. Why not take all measures before you engage in sexual intercourse. I mean if you do get pregnant and you've done all this, well shit. You've convinced me. Go abort your fetus.
Why don't you think for a moment about the cost of an abortion. The emotional toll on yourself. Forget the fact that it is a pain in the ass to get anyway. Why even put yourself through all that trouble without using every step.
Rape, incest, medical reasons, mother's life? Party hard bro.
An embryo has a soul from the very moment of conception.
Birth control is deceptive, in that it kills the embryo, it doesn't prevent conception, contrary to what it claims to do.
I believe abortion is as morally wrong as killing, because you are killing a human being that has a soul and a future. Abortions cut off the ability for a human being to have a chance at life. Personally, abortion is one of the most completely unfair realities of today's world.
Well, it's basically giving irresponsible women a quick and violent way out of their situation.
Now, if there was a woman who was raped and got pregnant, or a woman who might die if she went through with her pregnancy, then I'd say ok go have an abortion.
But in all other situations, it basically encouraging irresponsible sex because then "they can always go get an abortion" if they get pregnant. You're killing a living creature because you don't want to care for it and are too lazy to prevent it. If people could just learn to use condoms and birth control and such, there wouldn't be such controversy.
It's just moral principle. I don't even know how women who had an abortion could go on with their lives. Knowing that they chose to kill a creature. They should face the consequences of their behavior and go through with their pregnancy. Then maybe when they see the child's face when they're born, it will change their mind and they'll decide to raise and nurture this beautiful child. Or if they still don't want to raise them, then send them to an adoption center. At least they will have a chance at life rather than dying without a chance.
Let me sum it up this way: If you saw a murderer about to shoot an innocent person in the head and kill them, and you had the chance to intervene and stop the situation completely without any risk of harm to yourself, would you do it? So then why should a woman be allowed to kill their own child? Why?
1. Women who have abortions are not irresponsible. This is a fallacy and the data does not support it. Having an abortion for many women is the responsible thing to do. If you cannot take care of a child, you have no business having one.
2. Abortion is not violent.
3. It does not encourage irresponsible sex. Safe sex should still be taught. And the majority of women who have abortions used contraceptive.
4. You claim it is a moral principle yet you say a woman should be forced to endure the hardships (mental, physical, and financial) of pregnancy and childbirth out of your own twisted delusions of moral grandeur. You WANT to think they are too lazy. You WANT to think they are irresponsible. You WANT to think they don't use contraceptives. Because you WANT to believe abortion is wrong. Your beliefs in regards to abortion are untrue. Also, we raise millions of creatures in captivity and slaughter them yearly. Much harsher than an abortion.
5. Women who have abortions are not murderers. The child inside them is going to effectively ruin their lives and the kicker is most women don't even realize this until years afterward.
Hundreds of thousands of women die in childbirth every year, and hundreds of thousands more critically injured, maimed, made emotionally and financially destitute. Not consenting to childbirth isn't lazy, and is never harmless or without risk. You can't make childbirth a punishment for having sex. It's like saying that, by signing a donor card, you should be able to be forced to give a kidney or marrow whenever someone needs one.
Going by US statistics, with 12.7 deaths per 100,000 pregnancies, the average death rate is 0.00013% of births. Very low. Nothing is without risks. A woman can die during an abortion too. Obviously in other places they may be higher, but so would abortion deaths. Like I said before, if the mother might seriously die in childbirth, then, fine, because it seems that a life would be lost either way. But for the majority of women who have a normal, problem free birth, it's just not right.
Besides just wrong, abortions are a huge reason why today's youth and young adults are so awful. A woman can get out of her pregnancy with few or none consequences. So after that happens, no lesson learned. So why not some more unprotected sex? Because they didn't face any consequences from their previous mistake, they'll do it again, and then there will be yet another unintended pregnancy. And, outside of that, it teaches people that they can just weasel their way out of situations. Which is obviously not a good mindset.
You are taking away a living creatures life because someone does not want to face the music and take responsibility for their actions. What happens when (because they did not learn a lesson) they accidentally kill someone while driving drunk or in a similar situation. Are they just not going to take any responsibility? Well, if they killed their own child and nobody gave a hoot about it, then why should someone give a hoot about an innocent pedestrian? Society is putting newborns lives below everyone else's. A newborn still has it's whole life ahead of it. But not anymore, since it's mother is missing her common sense.
And that is a bad comparison. Becoming an organ donor is a choice that someone contemplates and makes and nothing to be ashamed of. An unwanted pregnancy happens as a result of no planning and thoughts. If someone were to actually think ahead, then perhaps that pregnancy never would have happened.
If a woman can die from an abortion, why make it illegal and thus far more dangerous? I know you said that an abortion due to rape is fine but how do you plan on monitoring that? The majority of rapes go unreported and the majority of the ones that do don't end well for the victim. So obviously a legal basis would be HIGHLY flawed. So that means any woman can just walk in, say she was raped, and get an abortion. Why restrict it then?
Jesus Christ. No, abortions are not why today's youth are so awful. Fun fact, only 18% people who receive abortions are teenagers. But you will have to provide proof to back up your claim that today's youth is awful because of abortion. You will provide evidence that abortions are ruining today's youth in your next post. Legitimate, scientific evidence. And why is a woman avoiding consequences a bad thing? You act like life is meant to be suffered through. No. You die someday and it's game over. In no way should you be forced to suffer through a meager and meaningless existence. As I have said before, the majority of women who receive abortions use contraceptives. Also, close to a supermajority of women who receive abortions already have one or more children to take care of. So they know the stress another child would put on their family. Also, while an abortion hardly teaches someone they can weasel out of a situation, that is a good thing to teach. There is always more than one option and NO ONE should be ostracized or punished for choosing the easier of two roads. Just because you aren't smart enough to take the easy road doesn't mean you get to act like those who do are inferior.
And what is the problem with that? It's her life and she is looking out for herself. It's selfish, sure. You die young and you die alone if you aren't selfish every once in a while. It's not taking responsibility? You JUST said how these women are irresponsible and you want them raising children? You'd rather children grow up unhappy, poor, and feeding the endless cycle than a woman make a responsible decision that betters her life. Your fallacies are growing larger. Hitting someone with your car and terminating an undeveloped fetus are two completely different things. Does anyone care when you hit a possum with your car? I don't think so. No, society is not putting newborn's lives below everyone else's. They are putting FETUS' below everyone else, as they should be. Do you even know what a newborn is? The word itself is the definition yet you are using it wrong. It is NEWLY BORN. A fetus is not a newborn any more than a child is an adult. Also it is you who lacks common sense. You are using emotion with no logic behind it. You are saying that YOUR morals are the correct ones and that people should follow them.
How many deaths per skydiving jumps are there? How many deaths per abortion? And how many of those abortions are end term abortions done due to sudden complications in the pregnancy? It sounds a lot lower than it really is. That translates to a lot of people per year dying. And it's tragic enough when they actually have informed consent and maintain it throughout the pregnancy. But dying because of an unwanted pregnancy they are unable to terminate as a punishment? That's unjust and unethical.
Besides "just wrong" being a terrible argument, as I said before, you can't use childbirth as a punishment for people getting pregnant, no matter what they learn or don't learn. The fact of the matter is nobody can hold a person's body hostage and force them to be a non-consenting life support unit (which is why the drunk driving metaphor is a false equivalency.)
And if they make and think about it and still decide to stop being an organ donor, they can. Because it's not a one-and-done consent, it must be constant. Same with pregnancy, and, in fact, any donor situation including pregnancy. The donors rights over their own body supersede the donee's rights to the donor's body.
Well personally, as an atheist, I can't give you an objective reason against it. I also am unsure of how I feel about making it a matter of government. However, personally I'm more of "I guess it should be allowed, but I wish it didn't happen". One reason I always toss around in my head is the idea "what if Einstein/Richard Dawkins/Benjamin Franklin was aborted?" I can't help but always think about the fact that you're erasing any potential successes that life had before it even had a chance.
On top of that, with the indescribably miniscule chances we have to hit the biological-lottery of being born at all, I see it as someone being named "Owner of Earth" then someone going "YOINK!". lol.
MemmilFeatured By OwnerNov 27, 2013Hobbyist Traditional Artist
It's better to think with your own brains instead of accepting everything as an absolute fact what scientists tell you. Maybe they have to call that stage of growing human a fetus, but what do you feel yourself? "Oh, they tell that creature inside my belly is not actually a human yet, so I still have time to get rid of it. How nice!"
Anyway if abortion is not done, it is GOING TO BE a human. When abortion is done you prevent it and thus don't allow someone to live.
You need to be able to understand what a scientist tells you before you have the right to start deciding if it absolute fact or not. Something I suspect that, with the reductively simple strawman you produced, you do not have the capacity to do yet. Come back when you know a minimum about embryology.