Is it Just me?
I'm an atheist, but almost every person I know follows some denomination of Christianity. I can't seem to figure out why people who seem to be, for the most part, rational people could allow themselves to continue to have the Christian beliefs. Any of you other non-believers find yourselves thinking about this way too much, like I do?
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I honestly think it makes a lot of sense. It would take time to explain why, since there are quite a few different reasons people believe. I guess I used to give it some thought, but not so much anymore. I suspect if I'd been raised differently, I might very well have Christian beliefs, too. Actually, in a sense I think I do have some Christian beliefs as a side-effect of being born into a mostly-Christian society. I've really been influenced by cultures that are not entirely my own in various ways that are difficult to account for.
This is a bit of a tangent, but, I don't think that people--any people, atheists and agnostics included--are all that rational. And I'm not saying that's even a bad thing. I just think one needs to be careful about surmising that the differences in belief boil down to rationality.
This is a bit of a tangent, but, I don't think that people--any people, atheists and agnostics included--are all that rational. And I'm not saying that's even a bad thing. I just think one needs to be careful about surmising that the differences in belief boil down to rationality.
Yes, the believer and non-believer tend to be equally baffled by each other's "irrationality" or "ignorance" etc. the temptation is to simplify what we don't understand about the other.
The believer says, "the non-believer is angry at God, or else is blinded to the truth by their own sin. Or they are not trying hard enough."
The non-believer says, "the Christian is a Christian because they are brainwashed, or raised to believe such things. It makes them comfortable, and the church propagates the beliefs to control others - at best it makes them "feel better" about their lives. They need God as a crutch to continue on."
Both of these approaches make us feel "safe" , but they do not resonate with the other party, and the oversimplification is almost certainly wrong.
The believer says, "the non-believer is angry at God, or else is blinded to the truth by their own sin. Or they are not trying hard enough."
The non-believer says, "the Christian is a Christian because they are brainwashed, or raised to believe such things. It makes them comfortable, and the church propagates the beliefs to control others - at best it makes them "feel better" about their lives. They need God as a crutch to continue on."
Both of these approaches make us feel "safe" , but they do not resonate with the other party, and the oversimplification is almost certainly wrong.
Very well-stated, I agree.
Only thing I would add is that it's very hard, if not impossible, to fully understand all the inner dimensions of a worldview outside of one's own. This is partially because of the simplifications/generalizations you mentioned, but even beyond that, people are going to always view other worldviews through the lens of their own worldview. Hypothetical peeks into the way other people see things can help us gain perspective, but I'm not sure it's ever enough.
Only thing I would add is that it's very hard, if not impossible, to fully understand all the inner dimensions of a worldview outside of one's own. This is partially because of the simplifications/generalizations you mentioned, but even beyond that, people are going to always view other worldviews through the lens of their own worldview. Hypothetical peeks into the way other people see things can help us gain perspective, but I'm not sure it's ever enough.
*nod*
I've come to realize humans are like bees. I find myself being part of the "hive-mind" mentality as well sometimes so I personally have witnessed this "oh he's doing it I might as well too!" phenomenon, especially on the internet and more prominently on reddit than anywhere else.
so my hypothesis is that people just follow what either their parents or their friends follow, and even if they get into said following by themselves they probably did so because they felt a sense of community. So to me it comes as no surprise that Christianity with it's pews and the practice of turning to everyone and saying "peace be with you" is comforting to people, especially living in a community where bells ring every hour on the hour and you can "be sure" everyone will be at church at a specific time at a specific day...basically it's the regimented nature of not only Christianity but Islam, Judaism, and a lot of smaller religions as well.
basically it's just a bandwagon, and everyone is currently on that bandwagon, maybe one day everyone will be on the atheist bandwagon, the problem with that is that you can be atheist and stupid about science so it means nothing for the perpetuation of civilization.
so my hypothesis is that people just follow what either their parents or their friends follow, and even if they get into said following by themselves they probably did so because they felt a sense of community. So to me it comes as no surprise that Christianity with it's pews and the practice of turning to everyone and saying "peace be with you" is comforting to people, especially living in a community where bells ring every hour on the hour and you can "be sure" everyone will be at church at a specific time at a specific day...basically it's the regimented nature of not only Christianity but Islam, Judaism, and a lot of smaller religions as well.
basically it's just a bandwagon, and everyone is currently on that bandwagon, maybe one day everyone will be on the atheist bandwagon, the problem with that is that you can be atheist and stupid about science so it means nothing for the perpetuation of civilization.
From where I'm sitting, the very nature of religion relies not upon things that are actually true, but things that people want to be true, even though there's no basis for any such assertions. It's a definite leap of faith in any situation, one that inevitably separates you from reality and causes you to live in delusion, which I find wrong.
So, yeah. I find it strange too.
So, yeah. I find it strange too.
A majority of my friends are Christian/religious. I also can't see why so many still cling to these beliefs since some of them a fairly bright. But I still respect their beliefs and them.
As long as you're not nagged by those Christians count yourself lucky. But if you're on the unlucky side (welcome to the club)... sarcasm can be a powerful weapon. ^_^
Define "way too much." I'm sure you've noticed all the problems religion causes for society, so it's only natural you would speculate on its source and, perhaps, how it might be remedied. Whole books have been written on the subject. I recommend God is not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything by Christopher Hitchens.
Anyway, I think the reason otherwise rational people cling to religion is through a weakness of character. They are too cowardly to face reality, so they construct a delusional view of the universe where there is an ultimate purpose to their lives, and there is universal justice, and there is something to look forward to after death. Those concepts are all so tempting, to some people, that they just can't cope without them.
Anyway, I think the reason otherwise rational people cling to religion is through a weakness of character. They are too cowardly to face reality, so they construct a delusional view of the universe where there is an ultimate purpose to their lives, and there is universal justice, and there is something to look forward to after death. Those concepts are all so tempting, to some people, that they just can't cope without them.
I can completely relate. Every time I sign into facebook (instagram too), I get bombarded with a news feed full of Christian passages and life advice that inevitably ends up referring to "God" as the solution.
I think a lot of the widespread belief is based on how the theist was brought up (mostly in an environment where the people around them believed in a god), intellectual lethargy and ultimately...fear.
People don't like to admit the fact that we as human beings DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING about the world we live in. Adversely, theists always boast about how certain they are of their God's existence, oftentimes ignoring the many fundamental arguments that deflate those beliefs in any truly rational person's mind. Many like feeling the false comfort that "God" is "watching over them" or that "God" is the cause of any beautiful or presently unexplainable thing they witness. Their beliefs also seem to free them of accountability in many aspects. The most common instances I've seen pertain to when a theist has a goal in mind, or a difficult situation they need to get through. I often hear the expression "Let go and let God." Basically meaning to leave everything in "God's" hands, rather than examining the situation and being proactive in finding a solution.
From my experience, many people feel that life will be devoid of meaning and purpose if they lose their belief in their God (which any non-religious person I'm sure will disagree with). That and it's very hard to de-program a lifetime of indoctrination, especially if their beliefs were somewhat strong. Finally, I think the underlying feeling is fear. Devoutly religious people seem to regard anything that challenges their beliefs as the "Devil" trying to work against them, or "God" testing them (which makes no sense if they believe their God is omniscient, he'd be fully aware of their intentions if that was the case). Fear and false hope is what has kept religion alive for as long as it's been around. Playing up on people's emotions and creating "answers" to life's questions are what ultimately contribute to the stranglehold religion has. And yet, I wouldn't even mind if people kept their personal beliefs personal. The problems arise when it permeates into absolutely everything and ignorance takes over. Luckily, it seems like more and more people are letting go of the whole "God" thing and giving logic a fair chance. Good to see.
I think a lot of the widespread belief is based on how the theist was brought up (mostly in an environment where the people around them believed in a god), intellectual lethargy and ultimately...fear.
People don't like to admit the fact that we as human beings DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING about the world we live in. Adversely, theists always boast about how certain they are of their God's existence, oftentimes ignoring the many fundamental arguments that deflate those beliefs in any truly rational person's mind. Many like feeling the false comfort that "God" is "watching over them" or that "God" is the cause of any beautiful or presently unexplainable thing they witness. Their beliefs also seem to free them of accountability in many aspects. The most common instances I've seen pertain to when a theist has a goal in mind, or a difficult situation they need to get through. I often hear the expression "Let go and let God." Basically meaning to leave everything in "God's" hands, rather than examining the situation and being proactive in finding a solution.
From my experience, many people feel that life will be devoid of meaning and purpose if they lose their belief in their God (which any non-religious person I'm sure will disagree with). That and it's very hard to de-program a lifetime of indoctrination, especially if their beliefs were somewhat strong. Finally, I think the underlying feeling is fear. Devoutly religious people seem to regard anything that challenges their beliefs as the "Devil" trying to work against them, or "God" testing them (which makes no sense if they believe their God is omniscient, he'd be fully aware of their intentions if that was the case). Fear and false hope is what has kept religion alive for as long as it's been around. Playing up on people's emotions and creating "answers" to life's questions are what ultimately contribute to the stranglehold religion has. And yet, I wouldn't even mind if people kept their personal beliefs personal. The problems arise when it permeates into absolutely everything and ignorance takes over. Luckily, it seems like more and more people are letting go of the whole "God" thing and giving logic a fair chance. Good to see.
Depends on where you live and who you know. I was raised without a church in an environment where nearly everybody went to church. Sometimes that made me feel like an outsider, but having family open to different beliefs helped. Since high school, most of my friends have not been Christian, or if they are Christian of a very liberal bent. At the same time, there are at least 5 churches in a 1 mile radius of my house, if not more.
As far as why otherwise rational beings would be Christian...well, we're not fully rational beings, and there are numerous reasons why some might remain or choose to convert.
As far as why otherwise rational beings would be Christian...well, we're not fully rational beings, and there are numerous reasons why some might remain or choose to convert.
Just being curious. Are you implying that believing in things like God and resurrection from the dead are illogical beliefs?
The universe being created in six days, man being created from dirt, women being created from said man's rib, the stopping of the earth's rotation [link], a global flood, the world needing to be repopulated through incest TWICE, talking snakes and donkeys, talking burning plants, being condemned to eternal torment for thought crimes, transubstantiation (crackers turning into human flesh and wine or grape juice turning into human blood), all of which people are to take on face value and expected to never be questioned. This is just Christianity.
Is religion an illogical position?
Is religion an illogical position?
okay, well the question really wasn't for you, but I'll bite.
I'll bypass six day creation, because both jewish and christian belief transcend this idea - there are different beliefs and views about it, including whether it is figurative or literal.
I'll bypass a lot of others too, for similar reasons.
Since I am believer, I will pick the criteria that I believe is crucial for Christian belief, such as the "resurrection of Jesus". Why would you propose this might an illogical belief?
I'll bypass six day creation, because both jewish and christian belief transcend this idea - there are different beliefs and views about it, including whether it is figurative or literal.
I'll bypass a lot of others too, for similar reasons.
Since I am believer, I will pick the criteria that I believe is crucial for Christian belief, such as the "resurrection of Jesus". Why would you propose this might an illogical belief?
Ooh! Just remembered virgin birth.
Back to the question of the resurrection. Excusing the miracle/magic explanation (magic can explain anything), people don't usually come back from the dead. The ones that did were alive but improperly determined to be dead and hasn't happened since the onset of modern medicine.
Not only that but how exactly does a few parlor tricks and somehow coming back from the dead make you the incarnation of a deity that allegedly created the universe?
Especially since he wasn't the only one who came back, Lazarus, various prophets and eventually a bunch of people after the crucifixion: Matthew 27:52-53
Then there is the fact that there are no contemporary extra-biblical records that corroborate the claim.
Back to the question of the resurrection. Excusing the miracle/magic explanation (magic can explain anything), people don't usually come back from the dead. The ones that did were alive but improperly determined to be dead and hasn't happened since the onset of modern medicine.
Not only that but how exactly does a few parlor tricks and somehow coming back from the dead make you the incarnation of a deity that allegedly created the universe?
Especially since he wasn't the only one who came back, Lazarus, various prophets and eventually a bunch of people after the crucifixion: Matthew 27:52-53
Then there is the fact that there are no contemporary extra-biblical records that corroborate the claim.
Am I understanding that this is what you are saying:
believing in the resurrection of "true" death after three days (not improperly determined) is illogical, because 1) miracles are involved and/or 2) people don't usually come back from the dead.
Do I have that right?
believing in the resurrection of "true" death after three days (not improperly determined) is illogical, because 1) miracles are involved and/or 2) people don't usually come back from the dead.
Do I have that right?
Well first of all the term "miracles" is usually attributed to as yet to be understood phenomena usually positive in nature. The term "miracle" has been attached to damn near anything that positively effects the believer weather it has a naturally explained origin or not. Suggestive that it is a subjective term.
And yes, people coming back from the grave is an occurrence that though "common" within the era it supposedly took place in it, is only in mythology.
But really it's the lack of extra-biblical documentation that should have corroborated from that time that at least corroborates the story that damns it.
There is next to nothing that suggests the events that took place in the bible were anymore real than the Epic of Gilgamesh, the Trials of Herakles, the story of Beowulf.
And yes, people coming back from the grave is an occurrence that though "common" within the era it supposedly took place in it, is only in mythology.
But really it's the lack of extra-biblical documentation that should have corroborated from that time that at least corroborates the story that damns it.
There is next to nothing that suggests the events that took place in the bible were anymore real than the Epic of Gilgamesh, the Trials of Herakles, the story of Beowulf.
Seems like there are 2-3 subjects here we could tackle together. But I'd like to stay on the topic of "Is believing in the resurrection of Jesus illogical?"
What makes a belief illogical is if it violates laws of logic - for example, the law of non-contradiction...
While two may argue on the veracity of Jesus' resurrection, and whether or not a belief is well-founded or not (did it actually happen), I don't yet see any evidence that suggests that a conclusion: "resurrection from death" is an illogical conclusion (be it true or false), based on the biblical evidence.
I will explain in an example. For this example, let us assume we both know that Bob is "smart", and we observe two other people having an argument about whether or not Bob is smart.
Person 1 - Logical, Incorrect Conclusion:
1) All college students are not smart
2) Bob is a college student
3) Bob is not smart
Person 2 - Illogical, Correct Conclusion:
1) All college students are not smart
2) Bob is a college student
3) Bob is smart
As you can see, logic can be (and very often is) divorced from correct conclusions. Conclusions can be logical if they remain consistent in the person's thought (and premises), yet they may still be wrong (and vise versa).
It is not illogical for people to believe in resurrection of the dead. It often comes down to metaphysical presuppositions, world views, and life experience that can and will shape such views.
What makes a belief illogical is if it violates laws of logic - for example, the law of non-contradiction...
While two may argue on the veracity of Jesus' resurrection, and whether or not a belief is well-founded or not (did it actually happen), I don't yet see any evidence that suggests that a conclusion: "resurrection from death" is an illogical conclusion (be it true or false), based on the biblical evidence.
I will explain in an example. For this example, let us assume we both know that Bob is "smart", and we observe two other people having an argument about whether or not Bob is smart.
Person 1 - Logical, Incorrect Conclusion:
1) All college students are not smart
2) Bob is a college student
3) Bob is not smart
Person 2 - Illogical, Correct Conclusion:
1) All college students are not smart
2) Bob is a college student
3) Bob is smart
As you can see, logic can be (and very often is) divorced from correct conclusions. Conclusions can be logical if they remain consistent in the person's thought (and premises), yet they may still be wrong (and vise versa).
It is not illogical for people to believe in resurrection of the dead. It often comes down to metaphysical presuppositions, world views, and life experience that can and will shape such views.
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might be*
It's a widely practiced indoctrination. It will take humanity a while to shake it off
The trouble is that children are brainwashed at a young age. By the time they've grown, those responsible for their upbringing have wired them for ignorance, and then the cycle begins once again.
That story doesn't work for all believers. It may be true for a good amount of America... My wife's conversion story definitely doesn't follow your description...
The majority of believers of any religion are either brainwashed from birth or are forced into it by their society and thus are forced to brainwash their children to protect their and their childrens' lives.
Late converts are taken in by an appeal to emotions, the sense of purpose, and the freedom from accountability.