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November 7, 2012
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How ELSE would you know?

:icondotb18:
DOTB18 Featured By Owner Nov 7, 2012
A lot of creationists will cite the Bible as their proof that the Earth and universe are only 6,000 years old, that everything was specially created by Yahweh, and so on and so forth. But let's say (for the sake of argument) that the Bible was never written. How then, creationists, would you know about what it contains? Without the Bible, how else would you know the ages of the Earth and the universe? How else would you know the identity of the creator, its method of creation or the order in which everything was created? How else would you know about the first man and first woman and their "fall from grace"? How ELSE would you know about what the Bible contains, without actually using the Bible?
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:iconthespiderfrommars:
TheSpiderFromMars Featured By Owner Nov 22, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Did they know how to write and make books 6000 years ago?
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:icondotb18:
DOTB18 Featured By Owner Nov 22, 2012
Some cultures during that time period could read and write, but Israel wasn't among them just yet. The Hindu Vedas were completed long before the Bible even got started.
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:iconthespiderfrommars:
TheSpiderFromMars Featured By Owner Nov 22, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Exactly, and I don't think the Jews (because that's what it was, right? correct me if I'm wrong!) bade the Hindus for help when they wanted to write all those stories down.
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:iconneurotype:
neurotype Featured By Owner Nov 17, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
They insist the Bible is the literal word of god, so they don't question it? Anyway, god itself is a tautology so I can't see them being bothered by this one :p
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:iconebolabearvomit:
EbolaBearVomit Featured By Owner Nov 11, 2012
The problem is freaks will believe anything except the stuff with mountains of information and data supporting it.

That's why you have birthers, creationists, 9/11 truthers, and alien abduction people.

It's easier to grab onto something that has some kind of emotional meaning to you as opposed to getting off your ass and actually learning about the universe around you and understand and accepting how small and insignificant you are.

In order to be a creationist you must, by rule, be a liar. That's the only you can be a creationist.
First you deny the reality of the situation (ie the Earth is not 6k old) and then you lie to support your pathetic position. That's where psuedoscience like ID comes in.
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:icondotb18:
DOTB18 Featured By Owner Nov 11, 2012
I have to agree. As AronRa once said, "To be a creationist, you don't need to know anything about anything, and it's better if you don't."

Quick question: What are birthers?
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:iconroyal-demon:
Royal-Demon Featured By Owner Nov 21, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Late reply is late.

Birthers are people who think that President Obama is not a natural-born citizen of the USA and therefore he should not be President.
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:icondotb18:
DOTB18 Featured By Owner Nov 21, 2012
Oh. Thanks.
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:iconcarusmm:
carusmm Featured By Owner Nov 10, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
Pray with me, DOTB18. "I forgive the dolts, for they are dolts."
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:icondotb18:
DOTB18 Featured By Owner Nov 10, 2012
And may they find rationality and logic on their journey through this one life.
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:iconcarusmm:
carusmm Featured By Owner Nov 10, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
not likely.
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:icondotb18:
DOTB18 Featured By Owner Nov 10, 2012
Eh, I try to be optimistic.

...Kind of hard, though, all things considered.
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:iconcarusmm:
carusmm Featured By Owner Nov 10, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
Optimism is a forlorn hope, they called it humanism before everyone kicked the shit out of it.
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:icontimehasanend:
TimeHasAnEnd Featured By Owner Nov 10, 2012  Hobbyist
Yeah, how would you know that God is sitting under the circle of the earth...How would we know about the moon, stars and other planets in the universe. How do we know the moon was appointed for seasons or how do we know 24 hours is a day. How do we know, there is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars for one star different from another star in glory. How would we know that there will be wars and rumours of wars. How would we know nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. How we would know for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. How, we would know that there will be time of the end, after the great tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. How would we know, that all these are the beginning of sorrows.

How, would we know they shall deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you and you shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. How, then would you know many will be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. How would you know, many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. How would you know or even have any clue, because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. How would you even know that some people will endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. How, we would know, what are the sign of the end, if Christ didn't give us the clue, that the Gospel has to be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations and then shall the end come....
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:icondotb18:
DOTB18 Featured By Owner Nov 10, 2012
Lots and lots of questions, and not a single question mark. What a fine example of grammar usage.

Half of the stuff you're talking about is not derived purely from the Bible (if you want to know about the moon and stars, look up at the night sky with a telescope once in a while) and the other half is just Revelations hoo-ha.
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:icontimehasanend:
TimeHasAnEnd Featured By Owner Nov 15, 2012  Hobbyist
Yeah, in the bible, God said that He created the stars, moon, planets, and the whole universe, etc. You can look up the stars all night long, but still you would not have a clue how it got there in the beginning. How else would you know?
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:iconbetweenskill:
BetweenSkill Featured By Owner Nov 15, 2012  Student Writer
Until about the early (90's?) the Catholic church did not accept the fact that the entire universe didn't revolve around our planet an it was only a few decades earlier that they accpeted that the stars were not just crystal spheres floating in the sky. (And you would know how it got there from science... like we already have....)
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:icontimehasanend:
TimeHasAnEnd Featured By Owner Nov 15, 2012  Hobbyist
Actually, it's God who revolves around the earth and He know exactly what your about to do...
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:iconbetweenskill:
BetweenSkill Featured By Owner Nov 16, 2012  Student Writer
What makes you think that earth is so unique? We are only one of 8 planets in our solar system that is one of billions that makes up our galaxy that makes up one of billions of galaxies that make up the universe. And if in your beliefs he (i find it interesting that the Christian god is a man) knows what I, or anyone else is about to do, why does that matter? Why does he not stop someone who is about to murder someone else? Or stop me from saying I don't believe in God? Because if a god has no active influence in the world then what is the point of worshipping him? "prayer healing" patients with deadly illnesses die 8/9 times while those who undergo medical care with/without prayer are only limited by the cost of the care? Why would you worship someone who would let you die even if you followed every single word in the Bible? (Which is 98% written by man)
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:icontimehasanend:
TimeHasAnEnd Featured By Owner Nov 16, 2012  Hobbyist
Because, God creation is very important for him, he watches everything we do on this planet earth. Of course, He does it to other being He created out there in the universe. He also, gave us a free will to choose, whether if it is good or evil. So, yes, God doesn't force anyone to worship him or He would not stop you from not believing in Him. So, yeah we have doctors and God who gave them wisdom and knowledge who can cure us by asking God to help and guide them, so that we can be cured. So, prayer do help, if you're faith can move a mountain...The Bible do promised, prayers can move mountains. Only, if you really believed and have faith in God.
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:iconbetweenskill:
BetweenSkill Featured By Owner Nov 16, 2012  Student Writer
Then how come no mountains have been moved (sparing those being slowly formed and eroded by tectonic shifts)? And I know many agnostic, athiestic or non-Christian doctors who have the same success rate as their Christian counterparts. In fact studies have shown time and time again that believing in the Christian god does not affect the person's ability to "heal". And God did not give doctors the knowledge, it was discovered and honed through countless years of tireless work and dedication to the preserving of human life. And if nothing else, can you please tell me why your one authority above all else on the world is a book that is actually a collection of writings from many different MEN from many different time periods that has been translated and interpreted from its original source a couple of thousand years ago? Why is that single book right above all else?
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(2 Replies)
:iconvictorianexcentric:
VictorianExcentric Featured By Owner Nov 10, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
There is no obvious epistemological replacement to the "revealed truth" epistemology of most religions [link] . Or at least, I have never seen one.

Certainly, the common epistemological tendencies, [link] would all fail you if you did not have a revealed truth in the form of one or another sacred text to use as a reference for your religious beliefs. The epistemological tendency known as the Scientific method would also not lead you to any conclusions. This, as a matter of details, is often cited as the reason why Pascal's wager is inherently flawed.

In any case, this brings us back to the "leap of faith" [link]. Without a leap of faith, it is not possible to accept religious dogma, or any supernatural belief as truth.

If you are interested in this, you might want to familiarize yourself with epistemology.

VE.
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:iconmacker33:
macker33 Featured By Owner Nov 8, 2012  Student Traditional Artist
So where in the bible does it say the world is 6000 years old? oh yeah it doesnt,

Just another atheist making stuff up.
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:iconcarusmm:
carusmm Featured By Owner Nov 10, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
macker33, you are either very ignorant or very cunning.
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:icontimehasanend:
TimeHasAnEnd Featured By Owner Nov 10, 2012  Hobbyist
Actually, the earth is about 13,000 years old, from the day of the flood of Noah, was 4990 B.C. = 6,000 years. Then, God says, for yet (seven days), and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth...(Genesis 7:4). In another words, after 6,000 years passed, then God will destroy this earth after 7,000 years, which equal to 13,000 years of the ages of the earth. Where, God again will destroy this world, like in the days of Noah, they were eating, drinking and giving marriages...etc. Remember God says, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. We read this truth in the book 2 Peter 3:3-8.

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts. And saying, where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water. Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished. But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day....2 Peter 3:3-8."
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:iconebolabearvomit:
EbolaBearVomit Featured By Owner Nov 11, 2012
The earth is not 13,000 years old.
There never was a global flood.
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:icontimehasanend:
TimeHasAnEnd Featured By Owner Nov 11, 2012  Hobbyist
Speak for yourself.
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:iconmacker33:
macker33 Featured By Owner Nov 10, 2012  Student Traditional Artist
The 2 Peter 3:3-8 quote was worth following up,,God promised st. malachi that ireland would be buried beneath the waves instead of burning,,we've been getting a heck of a lot of rain the last few years,,more than usual anyway.
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:icontimehasanend:
TimeHasAnEnd Featured By Owner Nov 11, 2012  Hobbyist
Of course, a volcano erruption is responsible to cause a Sunami waves and burried them with waves instead of burning.
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:iconmacker33:
macker33 Featured By Owner Nov 11, 2012  Student Traditional Artist
Well wet is wet,doesnt matter how
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:iconcarusmm:
carusmm Featured By Owner Nov 10, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
I don't know about me, macker33, but you're fucked.
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:icondigitalphenomena:
DigitalPhenomena Featured By Owner Nov 11, 2012
Braveheart quote? Or merely coincidental? lol
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:iconmacker33:
macker33 Featured By Owner Nov 10, 2012  Student Traditional Artist
Yeah,i cant swim either
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:iconcarusmm:
carusmm Featured By Owner Nov 10, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
I am not so hot about fire either.
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:iconmacker33:
macker33 Featured By Owner Nov 10, 2012  Student Traditional Artist
Well if you believe people who think the worlds going to end then i guess we wont fix the ozone.
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:iconcarusmm:
carusmm Featured By Owner Nov 10, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
We weren't going to fix the ozone anyway.
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(1 Reply)
:iconvictorianexcentric:
VictorianExcentric Featured By Owner Nov 10, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that transubstantiation exists as anything besides a metaphor, yet a large number of Christians, including most from the country believe thus. So one can conclude quite directly that the whole set of religious beliefs and practices of Christianity is not included in the Bible (ignoring the even further complication that there is no one standard Bible, and that its origins are somewhat muddled and acknolweding the fact that the existence of so many branches of Christianity certainly bear witness to how many different ways of conceiving of the Bible there exists) Or at the very least that the interpretation a specific branch of Christianity does of their specific version of the Bible can significantly extend the meanings attributed to it.

Now, here are the origins of the belief the OP is discussing, held by many (but not all) Christians that the earth is between 5700 and 10,000 years old: [link] . How many exactly would you say...well, here we are,.... It is supported widely by Evangelical Christians, esp. in the United States, [link]. There, an estimated 46% of adults believes in a young earth, based on the interpretation of the Bible and associated beliefs to which they subscribe [link].

But one can find YEC in other countries too, say yours, [link] , and even far away ones, and [link] . The assault of young earth creationist, and some other of their ilks, on Science is sometimes succesful, as in the Irish case, and sometimes fails, as in the Korean case.

I'd say, there is good evidence this is not "made up" as you claim. Rather it is a fact, established beyond reasonnable doubt, that a significant portion of Christianity supports the theory of a young earth.

VE.
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:iconlytrigian:
Lytrigian Featured By Owner Nov 10, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
The Bible doesn't say "transubstantiation" at all, but it also doesn't describe the Eucharist in metaphorical terms. "Τοῦτό ἐστιν τὸ σῶμά μου" (Mt 26:26, Mk 14:22, Lk 22:19) is pretty straightforward.

But then, a large number of Christians -- most, actually -- do not and never have based their faith solely on the Bible.
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:iconvictorianexcentric:
VictorianExcentric Featured By Owner Nov 10, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
I am familiar with this passage, but from there to the catholic view on transubstantiation, one has to interpret the text.

So it remains I do not see transubstantation as advocated by Cathechism. And that is my point. But it seems we are belaboring the question a little here. Have fun,

VE.
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:iconlytrigian:
Lytrigian Featured By Owner Nov 10, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
Belaboring? I just got here.

"Transubstantiation" doesn't come from the text at all. It comes from secular philosophy applied to theology. All you get from the bare text is that at the Eucharist the bread becomes the body of Christ and the wine becomes the blood of Christ. (You get that *without* interpreting the text, merely by reading it. To see it as metaphorical -- THAT is an interpretation.)

The Orthodox, for instance, don't interpret the text, but they also try not to over-think it. They call it a "change" and leave it at that.
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:iconvictorianexcentric:
VictorianExcentric Featured By Owner Nov 10, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
>Belaboring? I just got here.

Are you familiar with the expression "to be in violent agreement"? It strikes me as applicable here.

My point was not all of Christianity is contained in the Bible, and the exemple of transubstantiation during mass is a valid exemple. The remainder of our discussion strikes me as a little exercise in nitpicking that is not bringing much to the overal thread or at least much to me...hence my use of the term "belaboring". Might not have been the best word, but eh, you can't always find the best word...

Anyhoo...I don't even "get" the non-interpreted text from the Bible...Nor do I get that this event is repetable throughout history at Mass. And I am not even sure how to understand the original sentence.

So...where does that leave us...eh...

VE.
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:iconmacker33:
macker33 Featured By Owner Nov 10, 2012  Student Traditional Artist
If transubstantiation is false why did Our Lord turn the Host at Lanciano into real flesh and blood?

As for the age of the earth you cant expect me to defend non-catholic beliefs,i'm not being mean but they believe different things.
Thanks for the irish link,the unionists were mortal enemies for years but sometimes i like what they do.
.
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:iconebolabearvomit:
EbolaBearVomit Featured By Owner Nov 11, 2012
"If transubstantiation is false why did Our Lord turn the Host at Lanciano into real flesh and blood?"

No proof. Never happened.

"As for the age of the earth you cant expect me to defend non-catholic beliefs,i'm not being mean but they believe different things."

The age of the Earth is not a matter of belief for anyone with intelligence. It's not 10,000 years old.
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:iconmacker33:
macker33 Featured By Owner Nov 11, 2012  Student Traditional Artist
"No proof. Never happened."-- its in italy,you can go over and look at it
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:iconvictorianexcentric:
VictorianExcentric Featured By Owner Nov 10, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
It is irrelevant to me whether transubstatiation is real or false. It is however now obvious, including thanks to your objection, that different Christian branches have different beliefs on the topic, and that those specific beliefs are not issued unequivocally from the Bible. Thereby confirming that the Bible is not the "entire" picture for Christianity, and this especially for the variations that exist between branches of Christianity.

So your initial argument/request that "if the Bible doesn't mention it, it doesn't exist" doesn't have much of a leg to stand on.

>As for the age of the earth you cant expect me to defend non-catholic beliefs,i'm not being mean but they believe different things.

You claimed the topic was "made up" by non-Christian, I showed you are wrong in that claim. Whether you wish or not to defend it is irrelevant to me. Many Christians believe the earth to be between 5700 and 10000 years old, and we are talking "way more than the population of your country" when we say "many" .

>Thanks for the irish link,the unionists were mortal enemies for years but sometimes i like what they do.

Don't let them hear you say that, you may end up in the back of a van with a bag on your head.

VE.
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:iconmacker33:
macker33 Featured By Owner Nov 11, 2012  Student Traditional Artist
" Thereby confirming that the Bible is not the "entire" picture for Christianity,"-- yeah,i'd have told you that.

"You claimed the topic was "made up" by non-Christian"-- i said it was by a non-catholic,

"Don't let them hear you say that"-- i'll be ok
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:iconvictorianexcentric:
VictorianExcentric Featured By Owner Nov 11, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
For this, I only need to link to yoru original post, [link] . This of yours,

>So where in the bible does it say the world is 6000 years old? oh yeah it doesnt,

As a defense to distance YEC claims from Christianity is now bunk, and shown as irrelevant since it is obvious and openly admitted Christians worlwide base their beliefs on more than the bible. And many Christians believe the earth to be between 5700 and 10000 years old. Basing ourselves losely on 46% of US adults, we are ~100 millions in the United States alone. Not exactly a negligible number.

>"You claimed the topic was "made up" by non-Christian"-- i said it was by a non-catholic,

You said, and I quote, Just another atheist making stuff up. . You claimed the topic was indeed "made up" by "atheist". I showed you are wrong in that claim, evidence at hand. Many Christians believe the earth to be between 5700 and 10000 years old. It is not made up, but rather a well established fact.

At this point, you have not only been shown to be wrong in your initial statements, but you are displaying an amazing amount of hypocrisy. You might be better off stepping away from this, if you do not share YEC belief with those christian, you were simply ill advised in trying to defend it to start. You were even more ill-advised to try to assign it to your favorite scapegoat (which apparently is "atheist", how boringly stereotypical).

VE.
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:iconmacker33:
macker33 Featured By Owner Nov 11, 2012  Student Traditional Artist
Wishing very hard doesnt make something true, "And many Christians believe the earth to be between 5700 and 1000"-- do you mean "many" relatively speaking or not?

"Just another atheist making stuff up"-- lots of atheists do make stuff up,they lie,exaggerate and spoof too.
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:iconvictorianexcentric:
VictorianExcentric Featured By Owner Nov 12, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
I mean many as in this for exemple, 46% of American. [link] . That would be 143 millions by current count. Even if I give you a special discount of a couple tens of millions, that leaves us at more than 100 million. I think one hundred million qualifies as "many".

>lots of atheists do make stuff up,they lie,exaggerate and spoof too.

I have never seen any evidence that atheist as a group are any different than the rest of humanity, which leaves us as to why you would have so quickly and singularly singled them out in your initial reply. In practice, your initial comment was motivated by personal prejudice and little else. Relatively poor show for someone claiming to be a Christian, is it not, to harbor such prejudices?

VE.
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(1 Reply)
:iconebolabearvomit:
EbolaBearVomit Featured By Owner Nov 11, 2012
:iconthis2plz:
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