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May 17, 2012
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Prove to me the Holocaust didn't happen

:iconstarrkat:
starrkat Featured By Owner May 17, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
You can't base it all off of Anne Frank's diary. Even if it was fiction, it doesn't mean the Holocaust was as well.

I watched a few videos on this subject and there were a lot of people who said it was proved that the 'Holocaust didn't happen'. And all the people who believed it did happen had thumbs down.

So, people who deny the Holocaust didn't happen: Prove it.
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:iconjohnnykazoo:
johnnykazoo Featured By Owner May 29, 2012
No one denies the existence of camps and that Jews were deported, along with other groups of people, to be put into camps, and that many people died; No one denies this. What deniers, well actually they refer to themselves as "revisionists" because they think that sounds less misleading, think is that there was no actual plan of extermination for the Jews, homicidal gas chambers weren't used, and that the 6 million Jew death toll is an overestimate.

You may ask, what about all of the footage and pictures of dead bodies? Doesn't that prove they were murdered?
Well, if you look at footage of camps like Buchenwald, which isn't even considered to be an extermination camp by any historian, there were piles of dead bodies at that camp too. What a lot of people fail to realize is that there was a typhus epidemic that struck these camps, which caused many people to die. So, the revisionist argument is that the people who died at Auschwitz died of things like typhus and other diseases like they did at camps such as Buchenwald.

Also, another thing a lot of people don't realize is that the main purpose of Zyklon B, the cyanide based pesticide pellets supposedly used in homicidal gas chamber to kill Jews, was primarily used as a pesticide. No historian denies that Auschwitz had delousing chambers where clothes, furniture, etc was put to be fumigated using Zyklon B. Unfortunately, the Zyklon B wasn't capable of fulling preventing all of the typhus outbreaks. Unlike the Nazis, the Americans had a far superior insecticide called DDT, which they used in the Japanese American Interment camps.


There's a lot that can be said about holocaust revisionism, but hopefully this will give people a little bit of a view into the revisionist perspective. CODOH.com is a good website to visit if you're interested in the arguments made by revisionists.
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:iconcouchycreature:
CouchyCreature Featured By Owner May 20, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
Have some photographs, no photoshop around then - [link] ...Take some time to really look at them all, and then come back and have your debate about the numbers ...if you still feel like it.

Go and read the WIKI, it is pretty comprenhensive - [link] ...the estimate there, somewhere between 11 and 17 million people. Jews, Gypsies, Russians, mentally deficient, homosexuals, freemasons, jehova's witness.

Even if it were only 100,000 shot in ditches and buried, that was too many, and just I don't understand why people want to count as a way of deciding their response to the acts committed. Nor do I understand anyone who wants to make comedy from it. This was no fuckin' joke, ask anyone who somehow survived a death camp. You can still find them, look for the tattoo on their arm.
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:iconproductno49:
productno49 Featured By Owner May 19, 2012  Professional General Artist
The problem is that there is so much focus on the Holocaust and Jewish deaths that most forget about the millions of deaths from other nations that completely dwarf the number of Jewish casualties.
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:iconstarrkat:
starrkat Featured By Owner May 19, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
That's true. There were a lot of deaths concerning people who WEREN'T Jewish.
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:iconstyrofoamb00ts:
StyrofoamB00ts Featured By Owner May 18, 2012
Not to jump on the bandwagon, but there really isn't anyone who denies the holocaust. There are people who question the details, and to different degrees. The folks over at IHR tend to get their asses handed to them by Nizkor every time they open their mouth, so my guess is that the "revisionist" crowd is dwindling...

I wrote a pretty long paper last semester on Holocaust denial. It isn't really fair to call these people anti-semites, and it's ad hominem because even racists can be right. And besides that, I really haven't seen the evidence for it. Paranoid? yeah, probably. In some cases definitely. But usually not racist.

People would do themselves favors by looking into the issue so that they can approach it with the facts, instead of simply assassinating the character. There are a few details that some find lacking, but the convergence of evidence on all fronts overwhelmingly supports the Holocaust happening, and in numbers not too far from the general estimates.
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:iconspacelanderryo:
SpacelanderRyo Featured By Owner May 18, 2012  Student General Artist
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:iconstarrkat:
starrkat Featured By Owner May 18, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
tl;dr
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:iconspacelanderryo:
SpacelanderRyo Featured By Owner May 19, 2012  Student General Artist
Those are links to why the Holocaust did happen if you're wondering.
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:iconstarrkat:
starrkat Featured By Owner May 19, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
Ah.
I still didn't read it.
:lol:
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:iconkell0x:
Kell0x Featured By Owner May 18, 2012  Student General Artist
People who deny the Holocaust happen are ignorant. Most likely just some Nazi fantastics with no taste or respect.

My grandparents went trough World War 2, they saw how Jews were treated and they have talked to people who were there.
Not to mention we do not only have Holocaust survioirs, of diaries of Jewish children but even Poisoned Nazi men who admitted there crime.
People who still don't believe this with the hard core proof just deny it because they might have to fee l sorry for Jews, gypsies, Homosexuals Jehovah witnesses they don't want that.
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:iconsspirate:
SSPirate Featured By Owner May 18, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
There is overwhelming evidence that it did happen, but in many instances the number is inflated. I have heard 10, 11, 12, and up to 20 million people having been victims. Ofcourse over 12 is preposterous, but I've seen higher numbers floating around.
Some stories have been proven false- such as lampshades made of skin and soap made from human fat. And I think false stories like that popping up have contributed to some people's suspiciousness of the validity of the Holocaust.

When it comes to people who deny the Holocaust the majority of them are antisemitic themselves, and see the number as being grossly inflated in favour of Jewish groups in and outside the US who wish to exploit it. Atleast that has been my observation. I would certainly not say people who believe that are insane, though. Just paranoid. I myself often think the memory of the Holocaust is abused in some circles and is continuously brought up despite it being long over, and is often talked about instead of more current and pressing issues.
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:iconcake-fiend:
cake-fiend Featured By Owner May 18, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
Skin lampshades? That doesn't sound very profitable. I just imagine some weird Nazi being like "hey guys, look what I made from this Jew's skin!" and the others go "Jesus Christ Heinrich, that's fucking gross, go back to your corner and stay there. Oh and those sequins are just tacky."
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:iconsabhira:
Sabhira Featured By Owner May 18, 2012  Student Traditional Artist
:lol:
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:iconsspirate:
SSPirate Featured By Owner May 18, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
:lol:!
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:iconragerancher:
Ragerancher Featured By Owner May 18, 2012
Over 12 isn't that preposterous. It depends on what you consider the Holocaust to encompass. Do you deal with just extermination in camps or do you include other deaths due to Nazi policies? For example prior to the death camps, do you include those who died in the work camps? Do you include those who died of harship imposed by the Nazis? Do you include the slaughter of eastern europeans by the army? Including the various different cases where the nazis killed people and you end up with some very large figures.
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:iconcake-fiend:
cake-fiend Featured By Owner May 18, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
The Holocaust is defined as the systematic murder of Jews, Gypsies, and other "undesireable" individuals by the Nazi party. People who died as a result of economic hardship and eastern Europeans who were slaughtered indiscriminately shouldn't be included in that. It's not that their deaths aren't tragic, but they don't fall under the Holocaust category.
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:iconragerancher:
Ragerancher Featured By Owner May 18, 2012
I disagree. The economic hardship many suffered to the point of death was part of the nazi plan to remove people too. Take the Eastern front, the Nazis went out of their way to kill civilians without using the systematic murder. The scope of the holocaust was very broad and to narrow it down merely to the final solution ignores previous versions such as the Nazi plans to work them to death or letting them starve as opposed to simply murdering them.
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:iconcake-fiend:
cake-fiend Featured By Owner May 18, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
But they weren't singling those people out for their ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc. That's the point. I didn't intend to narrow it down to the final solution, even if they were just going to allow them to work to death the goal was still removing them from society. What separates the holocaust from the other civilian killings is the motive.
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:iconragerancher:
Ragerancher Featured By Owner May 18, 2012
They singled them out based on race. Eastern Europeans belong to a group called "Slavs". To the Germans the slavs were an inferior sub-race. They literally felt Eastern Europeans as a whole had to be wiped out or enslaved. There wasn't the same targetting as in Europe because they felt the entire population was worthy of extermination. That is why the war on the Eastern front was the most bitter and horrific in human history. It was quite literally a war of extermination.
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:iconsspirate:
SSPirate Featured By Owner May 18, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
If you include all those to encompass the Holocaust, then sure it definitely goes over 12 million. I don't(personally) include those deaths as part of the genocide, however.
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:iconragerancher:
Ragerancher Featured By Owner May 18, 2012
As I said to the other person, limiting the scope of the holocaust to simply the final solution ignores the extremely wide range of activities that were associated with extermination. The nazis carried out a campaign of extermination on the Eastern front (they had follow-up units that would hunt down and kill "undesirables"). These may not fit into your definition of the holocaust because they were never karted off to death camps. However such policies were a huge part of the Nazis plans for extermination. It also ignores plans used prior to the final solution such as work camps that would work people to death or simply cutting off all resources to undesirables anywhere to bring about starvation. The scope of the Nazi extermination plans was huge.
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:iconsspirate:
SSPirate Featured By Owner May 18, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
I'm all well aware of that. I know my history. ;) That was part of the Nazi's "Lebensraum" plans in which they were to conquer Eastern Europe, destroy much of it and re-establish it as the argricultural centre of the Greater German Reich and repopulate it with Germans.

When it comes to that part of the genocide and ethnic cleansing I do not consider it part of the Holocaust simply because other nations did those sorts of things during the war aswell- Russia is an example of this. The USSR used slave labour, sent "undesirables" to gulags, and used rape as a weapon against Russian, other Eastern European, and German civilians. What the USSR did isn't typically taken into consideration because it was an ally at the time.
The death camps, while not unique, were of the sole purpose of eliminating undesirables. I consider that the major component of the nazi holocaust.
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:iconragerancher:
Ragerancher Featured By Owner May 18, 2012
I also know my history having studied the rise of Hitler and the Third reich along with the Holocaust during my 6th form years (equivalent to college). The thing is on the Easter front it was a war of extermination. They had every intention of wiping out the Eastern Europeans and the result of their invasion was just like a much more brutal version of the early actions they did in Europe. The war in the East was one of extermination and for that reason I feel the term Holocaust can include it too. The Nazis intended it for lebensraum true but prior to that they wanted to eradicate those that already lived there. A campaign of genocide is a campaign of genocide whether it is done in death camps or through other means.

Ultimately it is subjective which numbers one wants to use. For someone looking more at just the final solution or even just the Jews, the numbers will be smaller than another person who includes various other aspects of the Nazi genocide under the term Holocaust.
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:iconsspirate:
SSPirate Featured By Owner May 18, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
I know- that was part of the policies for Lebensraum. To "cleanse" the area and to establish a population of ethnic Germans for the future. That was the point of going into Russia. You don't have to tell me things I already know. ;P

So ultimately you can include what you want when you think of the Holocaust. I see it as the genocide against Jews and other undesirables within camps and ghettoes who died either by outright killing, starvation, disease, or exhaustion. For some people the Holocaust is only the genocide of Jews. :shrug:
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:iconcake-fiend:
cake-fiend Featured By Owner May 18, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
I didn't realize you were talking about specifically targeting "undesirables" when you spoke of the Eastern front. I don't disagree with including those people as victims of the holocaust. There were plenty of indiscriminate casualties as well, which is what I was thinking of.
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:icon3wyl:
3wyl Featured By Owner May 18, 2012  Hobbyist Photographer
Isn't that a criminal offence?

I hear you can get jailed for that here, but I may be wrong.
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:iconsing-thrust:
sing-thrust Featured By Owner May 18, 2012
If the Holocaust was real, then how come Mel Gibson hasn't made epic torture porn about it? :sherlock:
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:iconkesai-serris:
Kesai-Serris Featured By Owner May 19, 2012
'Cause he hates Jews. And Black people.
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:iconragerancher:
Ragerancher Featured By Owner May 18, 2012
Whilst claiming it was actually the English who carried it out and that the Jews were never persecuted...
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:iconarctic-hunter:
Arctic-Hunter Featured By Owner May 18, 2012
oh yeah, the Americans definitely bombed japan twice. there's plenty of evidence. wots your point?
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:iconcrimsonmagpie:
CrimsonMagpie Featured By Owner May 18, 2012  Professional Traditional Artist
Twice? I'm pretty sure they bombed it many more times than that. :noes:
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:iconarctic-hunter:
Arctic-Hunter Featured By Owner May 18, 2012
wif nukrs. dat was a true hollacauster.
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:iconcrimsonmagpie:
CrimsonMagpie Featured By Owner May 18, 2012  Professional Traditional Artist
Technically 'Operation Meethinghouse' was more destructive; 100,000 people being killed and 25%+ of Tokyo being completely destroyed, in one night of bombing, and that was just one raid amongst many, a lot of which were almost as big. :meow:
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:iconarctic-hunter:
Arctic-Hunter Featured By Owner May 18, 2012
but y'see, that's semantically speaking not a proper hollercasta because I imagine most people did their dying via shrapnel and rubble and crap.

in a true holotoaster people need to achieve their dying part via fire and slash or intense heat.

according to da google dictionary ofc.

so technically the jewish holocaust wasn't really a holocaust because people got steam fried at room temperature with a whirlwind of category B.
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:iconcrimsonmagpie:
CrimsonMagpie Featured By Owner May 18, 2012  Professional Traditional Artist
Technically it is, since the firebombing was done with incendiary bombs, so no shrapnel and rubble, just lots of fire, and more fire, and some more fire. And when one considers that the firebombing of Japan killed around 850,000 people in less than a year, almost all burned to death, most of them civilians, one could easily consider it a genuine holocaust.
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:iconarctic-hunter:
Arctic-Hunter Featured By Owner May 18, 2012
that is a very valid observation.

so we have come to the conclusion that a holocaust did in fact happen. we should be proud to have answered op's question objectively.
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:iconcrimsonmagpie:
CrimsonMagpie Featured By Owner May 18, 2012  Professional Traditional Artist
Indeed we have. :lol:
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:icontankgirlcomicfan:
TankGirlComicFan Featured By Owner May 18, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
Photoshop.
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:iconstarrkat:
starrkat Featured By Owner May 18, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
Yeah because they had photoshop back then.
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:icontankgirlcomicfan:
TankGirlComicFan Featured By Owner May 19, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
I was being sarcastic. :unimpressed:
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:iconstarrkat:
starrkat Featured By Owner May 19, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
So was I.
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:icontankgirlcomicfan:
TankGirlComicFan Featured By Owner May 19, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
:unimpressed:
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:iconstarrkat:
starrkat Featured By Owner May 19, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
Smooth.
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:iconlittlegingerlion:
LittleGingerLion Featured By Owner May 18, 2012
Read "Maus" by Art Spiegelman, listen to his father's interviews. That's sure prove that it happend
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:iconstarrkat:
starrkat Featured By Owner May 18, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
Will do :)
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:icondivine--apathia:
divine--apathia Featured By Owner May 18, 2012  Hobbyist Photographer
I remember arguing about this. The guy believed all holocaust photos were fake :lol:
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:iconstarrkat:
starrkat Featured By Owner May 18, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
:lol:
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:iconcake-fiend:
cake-fiend Featured By Owner May 18, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
The emaciated people in the photos were just playing a game is all. It's called "who can last the longest without food".
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:icondivine--apathia:
divine--apathia Featured By Owner May 18, 2012  Hobbyist Photographer
They said they just dug dead people up and posed them :lol:
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:iconcake-fiend:
cake-fiend Featured By Owner May 18, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
Oh, well, that makes sense. I do that all the time.


Everyone needs a hobby.
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