So, I witnessed Malevolence in Disguise Yesterday...
... and there was very little, if anything, that I could do about it.
We went out with a group of friends. It was supposed to be a fun night. Two of these people are (or were) in a long term relationship. One of the girls (I can tell) has been rather envious of her friend for a while but, other than being occasionally 'challenging', she seemed rather benign. Until yesterday.
Everything started when another friend called and said she wanted to join us. We headed towards her location.
There was a misunderstanding brought on by lack of communication and the six of us having split up as a group (again, due to lack of communication). The other two guys and I almost got into a fight with some drunk people who tried to provoke us. Now, I've been in fights before and I have full credibility on the matter - we avoided ending up in the local police station by a hair. We were lucky that the situation didn't escalate.
The reason? The girls hadn't informed us that the plan had changed and they were heading another way. Had we been told this, the crisis would have been avoided. The boyfriend of one of the girls became furious with the matter.
I do not justify his reaction but I do not condemn it either. It is difficult to control all the adrenaline and the tension in one's body after being faced with a potential and dangerous group fight.
His girlfriend, however, was having none of it. She just turned her nose and refused to hear our side. She was completely unresponsive to the fact that her loving boyfriend (and colleagues/friends) almost ended up in either a hospital or behind bars. There followed an argument.
While everyone in the group was trying to raise awareness of the fact that the fight was avoided, we should always stick as a group, and that we should enjoy the rest of the night as intended... one of the girls (the envious one) kept adding oil to the fire by subtly pointing fingers, being entirely one-sided, and playing on her friend's ego.
This stirred up inner insecurities between the guy and the girl about their relationship and - guess what - the came on the verge of breaking up. Every time the 'envious friend' opened her mouth or was left alone with either one of both factions, the situation grew increasingly worse.
To top things off, at the end of the night when everybody was to go home on their own, she (the envious one) insisted that she stay with the guy to "tell him something." She sat on the bench, raised her legs, and put her arm on his shoulder. She was trying to seduce him! After getting him cross with his girlfriend (who was supposedly her best friend), she tried to isolate him and seduce him and claim him as her own!
Can you believe it?
How does one deal with these situations effectively? I hate it when people abuse the trust their friends have in them, and I can't stand supposed best friends disrupting happy relationships. I have been on the receiving end of something similar in the past, and I hate to see it happen to other people.
The funny thing is, although some silently admitted it, nobody had the audacity to call out the one who was trying to utilize the crisis into a successful seductive effort.
Any comments? Ideas? Experiences?
We went out with a group of friends. It was supposed to be a fun night. Two of these people are (or were) in a long term relationship. One of the girls (I can tell) has been rather envious of her friend for a while but, other than being occasionally 'challenging', she seemed rather benign. Until yesterday.
Everything started when another friend called and said she wanted to join us. We headed towards her location.
There was a misunderstanding brought on by lack of communication and the six of us having split up as a group (again, due to lack of communication). The other two guys and I almost got into a fight with some drunk people who tried to provoke us. Now, I've been in fights before and I have full credibility on the matter - we avoided ending up in the local police station by a hair. We were lucky that the situation didn't escalate.
The reason? The girls hadn't informed us that the plan had changed and they were heading another way. Had we been told this, the crisis would have been avoided. The boyfriend of one of the girls became furious with the matter.
I do not justify his reaction but I do not condemn it either. It is difficult to control all the adrenaline and the tension in one's body after being faced with a potential and dangerous group fight.
His girlfriend, however, was having none of it. She just turned her nose and refused to hear our side. She was completely unresponsive to the fact that her loving boyfriend (and colleagues/friends) almost ended up in either a hospital or behind bars. There followed an argument.
While everyone in the group was trying to raise awareness of the fact that the fight was avoided, we should always stick as a group, and that we should enjoy the rest of the night as intended... one of the girls (the envious one) kept adding oil to the fire by subtly pointing fingers, being entirely one-sided, and playing on her friend's ego.
This stirred up inner insecurities between the guy and the girl about their relationship and - guess what - the came on the verge of breaking up. Every time the 'envious friend' opened her mouth or was left alone with either one of both factions, the situation grew increasingly worse.
To top things off, at the end of the night when everybody was to go home on their own, she (the envious one) insisted that she stay with the guy to "tell him something." She sat on the bench, raised her legs, and put her arm on his shoulder. She was trying to seduce him! After getting him cross with his girlfriend (who was supposedly her best friend), she tried to isolate him and seduce him and claim him as her own!
Can you believe it?
How does one deal with these situations effectively? I hate it when people abuse the trust their friends have in them, and I can't stand supposed best friends disrupting happy relationships. I have been on the receiving end of something similar in the past, and I hate to see it happen to other people.
The funny thing is, although some silently admitted it, nobody had the audacity to call out the one who was trying to utilize the crisis into a successful seductive effort.
Any comments? Ideas? Experiences?
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Geez, this is behaviour I'd expect out of teenagers from terribly written live action shows. Some people are just petty.
People are shitty. Welcome to the world.
That girl may be a sociopath. I don't want to play armchair psychologist here & of course I only have your narrative to go on. But it sounds like the kind of manipulative, self-serving behavior that sociopaths engage in. It's literally all they can do. It has been my misfortune to run into several such creatures in my life thus far...you can't have dealings with conscienceless people without noticing certain patterns after a while. When you have no real empathy, no emotional connection of any kind to other people, you will see them & treat them as pawns to be maneuvered for your advantage. That's what this girl sounds like.
I'd suggest staying away from her as much as you can. You cannot talk her out of behaving the way she does--the sociopath is a one-trick pony. You could warn your friends about her as well...with any luck, they'll kick her out of the group.
I'd suggest staying away from her as much as you can. You cannot talk her out of behaving the way she does--the sociopath is a one-trick pony. You could warn your friends about her as well...with any luck, they'll kick her out of the group.
It makes sense. Traits of her behavior remind me of my ex girlfriend' best friend. This one goes so far as to claim that 'doing good' is a social construct.
I am afraid they will not acknowledge her behavior for what it is. They hang out a lot, and from my personal experience, a person will always choose their friends over their own values.
I don't want to be around her. Even if things do settle, I would not go out with them provided she is going out that night too.
At least I have an idea for a drawing or a poem... "Damnable creature"
I am afraid they will not acknowledge her behavior for what it is. They hang out a lot, and from my personal experience, a person will always choose their friends over their own values.
I don't want to be around her. Even if things do settle, I would not go out with them provided she is going out that night too.
At least I have an idea for a drawing or a poem... "Damnable creature"
You have some life in front of you yet, but that finding from your experience thus far is unlikely to change. The fact is that most people are "micelike conformists", to use Dennis Judd's phrase. People do have fairly consistent values but not everyone will rigidly stand by them in the face of peer pressure, consumerist mass culture, & other modern influences. That is often just as well, since if all of us held strict principles & refused to compromise on any of them, then organized society would not be possible. But social conformity does go awry, as you've seen.
How can organized society be impossible if everyone refused to compromise their principles of freedom, respect, and integrity? These are universal values, and only a sophist could make them sound relative.
It takes an idealist to say that principles of freedom, respect, & integrity are "universal". Were that truly the case, human society would exist without governments, police, jails & prisons. Social order would never need enforcement of any kind if it were that robust on its own. The fact is that in any society there are members who do not respect others, care nothing for other people's freedoms & completely lack integrity themselves. Such creatures lack the all-important trait of empathy (& often, foresight as well). You gave an example in your OP. I briefly fell prey to one in the course of relocating to where I live now, & that wasn't the first such creature I've encountered in my life thus far.
All of the above only deals with people who don't care to do the right thing. If we were to bring differing cultures into it, then the discussion would get complicated...
Two things you should remember: 1) A notable psychologist named Martha Stout has estimated that as much as 4% of the human population (worldwide) is sociopathic. 2) Martial arts grandmaster Imi Lichtenfeld once said "Not everyone who walks on two legs is indeed a human being." Food for thought.
All of the above only deals with people who don't care to do the right thing. If we were to bring differing cultures into it, then the discussion would get complicated...
Two things you should remember: 1) A notable psychologist named Martha Stout has estimated that as much as 4% of the human population (worldwide) is sociopathic. 2) Martial arts grandmaster Imi Lichtenfeld once said "Not everyone who walks on two legs is indeed a human being." Food for thought.
It takes an idealist to say that principles of freedom, respect, & integrity are "universal".I am an idealist. What good would mankind be if not driven by the ideas of great men?
Were that truly the case, human society would exist without governments, police, jails & prisons. Social order would never need enforcement of any kind if it were that robust on its own. The fact is that in any society there are members who do not respect others, care nothing for other people's freedoms & completely lack integrity themselves.We have free will, giving us the freedom to choose our behavior. If we do not behave morally, that does not mean that morality is subjective; it just means that we have chosen to disobey it. The egoic mind is the only level on which morality can be relativized, then marginalized and, finally, disputed. But the egoic mind only masquerades as the ultimate sovereign ruler, while in reality it is a slave to fear and desire.
The goal of governments, laws, regulations, courts, police, jails and prisons, is not to enforce social order - it is to maintain it and guard it against those who choose to distance themselves from the moral conduct. Additionally, there are actions that are neither moral nor immoral, and that is why legislation is important for societies.
1) A notable psychologist named Martha Stout has estimated that as much as 4% of the human population (worldwide) is sociopathic.
Martial arts grandmaster Imi Lichtenfeld once said "Not everyone who walks on two legs is indeed a human being." Food for thought.So you do, in a way, agree that human beings are not just socially-conditioned and overly-intelligent animals (Freud and company)? A lot of moral relativists claim that there is nothing especially valuable to morality, at which point this 4% of people might actually be the next step in human evolution - devoid of setbacks and hurdles that were initially designed for the mental enslavement of humans.
Note: This is a discussion. Not an argument, not a 'battle of wits', not a fight. And I don't want anyone perceiving it as anything similar. This is just a philosophical, albeit informal and casual, discussion.
Of course it is, & an interesting discussion at that. There is certainly more substance to your reply than some I've seen in other fora (mainly Facebook, but I shut my account down this morning...had enough FB irritations).
The ideas of great people (let's not leave the women out!
) don't drive mankind most of the time, only in certain situations. In my experience, what drives most people is acquiring or paying for the basics: Food, water, shelter, decent employment. They usually don't consider the wider ramifications of their activities; it's all about "I need ___ right now" or "I have to pay for this by next week". When the time & place is right & someone is smart enough to take advantage, yes, progress can be made. Martin Luther King Jr. is one of the most recent examples of that (I disagree with pacifism generally but I have to admire King's courage in holding to his principles).
Morality is subjective in the sense that, aside from its roots in empathy for one's fellows, it is culturally conditioned. Case in point: One of the more recent Supreme Court decisions legalized gay marriage, & the Pulse nightclub massacre elicited grief & outrage all over the country. As this occurred in a mostly secularized nation where homosexuality is more or less accepted, one can conclude that in the United States, being gay is considered moral or at least nothing to get upset about (fundamentalist Christians, Muslims & Jews excepted, but none of them constitute a decisive majority). In Saudi Arabia, homosexuality is punishable by death under the law of the kingdom. That law is strictly enforced there as well: Gay men who are found out are routinely beheaded there. Thus in the kingdom of al-Sa'ud, homosexuality is immoral. I'm not claiming their code of law is right, just using it as an example.
There certainly isn't any underlying logic to morality other than evolutionary advantage: Groups wherein the members look out for each other succeed more than bunches of treacherous individuals without loyalty. On the other hand, that also means that no one can live without morality in some form. Even sociopaths need it in the form of moral humans they can dominate & exploit (unfortunately for the rest of us).
As for "governments, laws, regulations, courts, police, jails and prisons", enforcing social order is maintaining it. Or an important part of maintaining it, anyway. Ensuring all members can satisfy their basic needs is also a part of that. Someone once said "Every society is only two or three meals away from a revolution"...I forgot who, but there's definitely a grain of truth to it.
As for free will, I don't believe in it...but I'm not a strict determinist. That's going too far. Human volition exists, yes. We do make decisions, but no decision is ever truly free. Between hereditary tendencies in one's character & limits imposed by one's environment, much--but not all--of one's decision-making is effectively spoken for.
The ideas of great people (let's not leave the women out!
) don't drive mankind most of the time, only in certain situations. In my experience, what drives most people is acquiring or paying for the basics: Food, water, shelter, decent employment. They usually don't consider the wider ramifications of their activities; it's all about "I need ___ right now" or "I have to pay for this by next week". When the time & place is right & someone is smart enough to take advantage, yes, progress can be made. Martin Luther King Jr. is one of the most recent examples of that (I disagree with pacifism generally but I have to admire King's courage in holding to his principles).Morality is subjective in the sense that, aside from its roots in empathy for one's fellows, it is culturally conditioned. Case in point: One of the more recent Supreme Court decisions legalized gay marriage, & the Pulse nightclub massacre elicited grief & outrage all over the country. As this occurred in a mostly secularized nation where homosexuality is more or less accepted, one can conclude that in the United States, being gay is considered moral or at least nothing to get upset about (fundamentalist Christians, Muslims & Jews excepted, but none of them constitute a decisive majority). In Saudi Arabia, homosexuality is punishable by death under the law of the kingdom. That law is strictly enforced there as well: Gay men who are found out are routinely beheaded there. Thus in the kingdom of al-Sa'ud, homosexuality is immoral. I'm not claiming their code of law is right, just using it as an example.
There certainly isn't any underlying logic to morality other than evolutionary advantage: Groups wherein the members look out for each other succeed more than bunches of treacherous individuals without loyalty. On the other hand, that also means that no one can live without morality in some form. Even sociopaths need it in the form of moral humans they can dominate & exploit (unfortunately for the rest of us).
As for "governments, laws, regulations, courts, police, jails and prisons", enforcing social order is maintaining it. Or an important part of maintaining it, anyway. Ensuring all members can satisfy their basic needs is also a part of that. Someone once said "Every society is only two or three meals away from a revolution"...I forgot who, but there's definitely a grain of truth to it.
As for free will, I don't believe in it...but I'm not a strict determinist. That's going too far. Human volition exists, yes. We do make decisions, but no decision is ever truly free. Between hereditary tendencies in one's character & limits imposed by one's environment, much--but not all--of one's decision-making is effectively spoken for.
Some people stay true to their feelings, no matter the social position of the other person. Even if they're a friend, and even if they're with someone else, some people still act completely honest about what they're feeling. In the end, the responsibility for the relationship is not in the hands of friends, but the couple themselves.
However, I don't like the idea of someone trying to stir arguments on purpose, just to make things worse between other people. That irks me.
Well, the best you can probably do is to tell the person what you honestly think. Give your disapproval and reasoning for it. She might or might not listen. Best not to start a conflict about it, though.
However, I don't like the idea of someone trying to stir arguments on purpose, just to make things worse between other people. That irks me.
Well, the best you can probably do is to tell the person what you honestly think. Give your disapproval and reasoning for it. She might or might not listen. Best not to start a conflict about it, though.
In the end, the responsibility for the relationship is not in the hands of friends, but the couple themselves.True. Honesty prevails.
Well, the best you can probably do is to tell the person what you honestly think. Give your disapproval and reasoning for it. She might or might not listen. Best not to start a conflict about it, though.I think I will keep quiet about the culprit. She is the girlfriend's supposed best friend and, I don't think my word would be taken over hers. But I did tell the guy; although he hasn't gotten back to me with a response. I guess I lost a group of friends. Pity.
What if you tell the supposed best friend herself?
The supposed best friend is the culprit.
You could say that I told her indirectly that very night by insisting that she does not stay alone with the guy. I also had an upfront argument with her alone and I pointed out the fact that she was the only one pointing fingers and adding oil to the fire. She got very aggressive and got within an inch of my face, yelling at me, and she later told others that I hit her (I didn't hit her; I just pushed her out of my face; had I really hit her, it would have shown).
Whereas the other one, the girlfriend, probably sees me as the bad guy, as she hasn't contacted me since. And that was about three days ago.
I hate that it had to go down this way. But in the long run, I don't want friends who show no reaction to their friends (and a boyfriend) having narrowly avoided a group fight - and then getting angry and distant when told that the possible fight could have been avoided had they payed more attention to directions and communication rather than hugging and giggling.
You could say that I told her indirectly that very night by insisting that she does not stay alone with the guy. I also had an upfront argument with her alone and I pointed out the fact that she was the only one pointing fingers and adding oil to the fire. She got very aggressive and got within an inch of my face, yelling at me, and she later told others that I hit her (I didn't hit her; I just pushed her out of my face; had I really hit her, it would have shown).
Whereas the other one, the girlfriend, probably sees me as the bad guy, as she hasn't contacted me since. And that was about three days ago.
I hate that it had to go down this way. But in the long run, I don't want friends who show no reaction to their friends (and a boyfriend) having narrowly avoided a group fight - and then getting angry and distant when told that the possible fight could have been avoided had they payed more attention to directions and communication rather than hugging and giggling.
Ugh... it's annoying that you had to be mixed into that stuff.
But when people don't want to listen, and just want to do bad things to each other... well.
It's good to try to help them, but if they just turn on you, don't bang your head on the wall. That's not smart, either.
But when people don't want to listen, and just want to do bad things to each other... well.
It's good to try to help them, but if they just turn on you, don't bang your head on the wall. That's not smart, either.
Call her out on it. If you can see the situation so clearly as it's happening, why not intervene? Speak your mind!
Tell the girlfriend that her friend was just riling up her ego and making the problem worse than it was so that she could have the opportunity of trying to sneak a sly one in with her boyfriend.
Tell the girlfriend that her friend was just riling up her ego and making the problem worse than it was so that she could have the opportunity of trying to sneak a sly one in with her boyfriend.
Call her out on it. If you can see the situation so clearly as it's happening, why not intervene? Speak your mind!I tried to. But I didn't get the signals that it would be safe to call her out in front of everyone. Some of them are afraid of her; others would just refuse to believe me. She does this power-tripping thing where, during arguments, she talks on the verge of yelling (but not quite yelling) and she talks unremittingly.If anyone tries to get their voice over hers, they would have to start yelling - so they lose by coming off as aggressive. And if you keep quiet, well, it appears that you have nothing smarter to say. She also uses her sex ("I'm just a girl") to get away with aggressive behavior.
Tell the girlfriend that her friend was just riling up her ego and making the problem worse than it was so that she could have the opportunity of trying to sneak a sly one in with her boyfriend.I texted her during the argument telling her that the argument was ego-based and that she shouldn't be mad at her boyfriend. She saw it, and she only got more alienated from me.
Maybe I should have let the boyfriend and the envious girl alone, and taken a snapshot of her trying to seduce him from a distance. I have a good camera and I think she is nearsighted; maybe I could have pulled it off. That would have settled the argument.
But I insisted that she leave him alone, and that he comes with me, instead. Well, at least she didn't get the pleasure of seducing him; albeit she probably did get away with almost-breaking-them-up without being caught.
How about you skip any regrets and send her a link to this forum? You've expressed your feelings well enough to be understood. I take it perhaps you have a problem telling people things directly, so you should also drop a hint that since you're non-confrontational you just want to let her know how you viewed the situation without having a long drawn out conversation or debate about it. Hopefully she won't be upset or anything.
If she's your friend then she should be willing to hear you out.
If she's your friend then she should be willing to hear you out.
I don't have a problem telling people things directly (see my response to the person above). I just don't like being direct with people who would rather not hear the truth, and make me out to be the bad guy because they care less about reason and more about being right.
It feels bad. But I am not sacrificing my values for the sake of a few semi-friends.
Hopefully she won't be upset or anything.Well, the fact that she got mad over the text and hasn't contacted me since implies that she would get mad regardless. I didn't expect this to go into 'no-contact', but I am not the one who is going to contact her first. She is 26. She should know better than to dismiss everything she is told about a situation and only listen to one friend who strokes her ego by giving her never-ending entitlement to be careless and free of responsibility.
It feels bad. But I am not sacrificing my values for the sake of a few semi-friends.
First of all, be very choosey with those who you hang out with. I learned this the hard way. This is hard to judge while you're young, but as your adult life and career come together, it can be crucial. This group seems to attract a wide array of bullshit situations that you do not want to be involved in.
Love yourself. Know what you want. Be responsible. Don't put up with drama. Speak up. Leave if you must. Ditch them if you must.
Love yourself. Know what you want. Be responsible. Don't put up with drama. Speak up. Leave if you must. Ditch them if you must.
I am. I have gotten out of two bad groups so far.
I thought these people were different. I know them from college. We have mutual interests. And the guys are really nice (so was the girl). The one I refer to as the envious one is the only one who is mean.
I'm afraid I will have to leave the group. I don't want to have to face the 'envious girl' and pretend I'm okay with her. Or if not the whole group, at least to the point where I don't get to see her specifically.
I thought these people were different. I know them from college. We have mutual interests. And the guys are really nice (so was the girl). The one I refer to as the envious one is the only one who is mean.
Love yourself. Know what you want. Be responsible. Don't put up with drama. Speak up. Leave if you must. Ditch them if you must.Thank you.
I'm afraid I will have to leave the group. I don't want to have to face the 'envious girl' and pretend I'm okay with her. Or if not the whole group, at least to the point where I don't get to see her specifically.
