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November 5, 2012
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:iconantmholic:
ANTMholic Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2012
I need to rant. I'm becoming one of the things in this world that I hate the most - a sexist fuck. Actually, I'm pretty sure I already am one.

It just seems like every man I've ever encountered has been a sexist douche, undermining and belittling women because of our genitals. I've never had a good relationship with anybody of the male gender, whereas damn near every woman I've encountered has been nothing but good to me.

Just some of my relationships/experiences/whatever with men:

-My older brother, who has flat out said that women are stupid and useless on more than one occasion. Refers to them as bitches. I've overheard him say to his friends that he would rape a girl if it wasn't so frowned upon, and they found it amusing. What the fuck.

-Dad also believes women are stupid and useless and are all whores.

-Shut the fuck up about your dick. I couldn't care less.

-Cat callers. Really, getting hollered at on the street isn't a compliment and doesn't make me feel "good." No, I feel threatened and sickened and I want to hide.

-Boys I've had the misfortune of talking to in general. They ask me to hang out, and I'm friendly - they don't know that in my head I'm trying not to judge them just because they're male. In one way or another, they find out I'm not open to a relationship with them, and that's the last I'll ever hear from them. No loss really, but it just reinforces this shitty idea I have that they only talk to me to get in my pants.

-A woman can't ever truly love another woman or be solely attracted to someone of the same gender? Well then neither can men, nor can they solely be attracted to someone of the opposite gender. Shut the fuck up. (I guess this is more of an lgbt issue, though I've only heard this sort of thing from men who get offended at the idea of actual lesbianism.)

-No, I don't find kitchen or rape jokes funny. Men don't seem to understand why, but then again maybe I take these things way too seriously.

-My World War 2 class. Ooh boy. I've never been in a room so full of sexist pricks in my life. Kitchen/women-are-stupid jokes galore. Fine, I get it, boys in high school are morons, but I can't help but get extra offended when even the teachers join in. Fuck that class.

There's a lot more, but these are things that have happened quite recently. I guess another reason I'm putting this here is because I don't want to be this way. I hate that I prejudge half of the entire human population before I even get to know any of them. But no man has given me a reason to respect them or to believe that they don't think they're better than women. Where are all of these amazing fairy tale men I hear of that respect women as equals? It's gotten to a point where if a guy seems like a good person, I'll subconsciously try to look for anything to hold against him. And I feel sick and disgusted with myself because of it. Some advice on how to not be a sexist ass would be very nice.
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:iconravynnenevyrmore:
RavynneNevyrmore Featured By Owner Nov 10, 2012  Student Digital Artist
I'm sorry you live in such an awful place. I've never been in a place THAT sexist outside of maybe World of Warcraft, where I had trouble finding guilds even though I was a very good player because most of them were environments such as you described and I had no desire to be there. And of course if I announced that I was looking for a guild but stipulated that I wanted to be in an environment that does not disrespect women, I was ridiculed for being one of those awful, pathetic, and unattractive "feminists" and no one would want to play with me because I was "too sensitive" and "couldn't take a joke." (Funny how no one in an MMO will believe you're a female until they have the opportunity to label you as an unreasonable oversensitive "feminist," or a bad player.)

But on the occasions when this would all make me rather depressed about the current state of society and the way that women are regarded by men, I was able to remind myself that the sample of male humanity that I was surrounding myself with by playing WoW was perhaps one of the worst examples of the entire population and did not accurately reflect the average. After all, a thing like WoW attracts douchebags, so of course its subset population is going to have a higher concentration of them than the whole. I understand the basic principles of statistics. If you've never taken a class, you should read up on it too. Not even necessarily the math part, just the principles in chapter 1.

I have no idea what it is about your environment that attracts douchebags to it, or encourages douchebaggery from those who would otherwise not be douchebags. Maybe it's the place where you live, and your local culture encourages sexism. I have always lived in very liberal areas in the US (Boston, New York) and so my offline environment is fairly tolerant...on the surface. It puts on a polite face for politically correct society, at the very least, and yours seems to lack even that.

There are times when I am convinced that even this is all just a farce, a lie that the boys agree to tell, when in actuality they hate us and would rather that we did not exist at all except to have sex with us. This is reaffirmed for me whenever a male friend ceases to be my friend when he learns I am not going to have sex with him, or a new study or poll or anecdote reinforces that belief that guys only want to be friends with girls that they would like to have sex with. When they don't want to have sex with you or have given up on the hope, they will not bother being friendly to you. This, to me, indicates hatred. They do not even truly want us around. To use an analogy to racism it would be like if I only befriended black people if I had some vague hope that they would come home and pick my cotton fields for me, and otherwise I just ignored them and tried to exclude them from my environment as much as possible. It indicates that you dislike a person (an entire demographic, even) outside of what you perceive they can do for you, and it's hateful.

But perhaps this too is just a sampling error. It's hard to look past a trend when 90% of experiences indicate a certain thing, and you try to convince yourself that maybe you're just looking at a disproportionate sample of the whole population and maybe the larger population only exhibits that behavior in about 50% of them. Then why would your sample indicate the population so poorly? There must be some bias.

In World of Warcraft, it was the game that created the sample. The types of guys who are drawn to play WoW, and then who are drawn to be vocal about their views on women within the game (because you have to consider there are also people playing who will never draw your attention to them), have a strong correlation with douchebaggery and sexism. Essays could be written on speculations of the reasons why. But the population of an actual physical place should be more random, right? It's not like most people are choosing to live there because of some quality that appeals to their douchebaggy personality traits.

However, we all live in microenvironments. And these microenvironments are created by ourselves. We can't invite everyone that we encounter into our personal space; there are too many people. So we pick and choose some to interact with and then we forget that this is only a sample of the larger population around us. And often there is a bias that influences who makes it into our microenvironment and who doesn't: you. You're the one choosing, usually. So maybe there is something about the people you choose to interact with that draws sexist assholes to you or vice versa.

On this note, I refer to this: [link]

It's an examination of the NiceGuy™ "phenomenon," a certain personality trend that guys tend to exhibit when they only surround themselves with certain type of women. They tend to bring shallow, manipulative, and demanding women into their microenvironment, and so they think we're all shallow, manipulative divas because they're extending the trends of their self-selected samples to apply to the entire population of women, overlooking the fact that they made this selection themselves and with a bias.

And there's nothing to say that we're not doing the same thing. Like you, I try to remind myself to be fair. I am very aware of the negative opinions I have been left with by an unsavory sampling and logic/faith tells me that I can't fairly assume this applies to the whole population. But it's a leap of faith every time, and you know what they say about the definition of insanity being to attempt the same thing over and over again while expecting different results...

Another bias to consider is that the people who are more likely to end up in your microenvironment are the people who make some effort to be there, whether they're the people who smile at you and say hello while you never meet the people who don't, or the people who actually reciprocate in conversation rather than giving one word answers, or the people who agree that yes you should hang out sometime and follow up on it rather than saying it just to placate you and the invitation.

Of course, the sample of your family members is somewhat random. Actually, only the personality traits of your father is random. The personality of your brother is a product of that. If your father was not an asshole, your brother would be less likely to be one.

The sample of your classmates should be pretty random, unless you're taking an elective that is likely to be chosen by people with specific personality traits. But also consider that, like I mentioned with the players of WoW that you notice only being the ones who socialize, there could be quiet guys in your class who aren't chipping in when the sexism runs rampant, but you don't notice them because the loud assholes are the ones who draw more attention.

Anyway, I don't have the answers. Just a different way of looking at the question. I hope that at least helps.
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:iconarmonah:
Armonah Featured By Owner Nov 10, 2012
Let me guess... you played Alliance? :paranoid:
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:iconravynnenevyrmore:
RavynneNevyrmore Featured By Owner Nov 10, 2012  Student Digital Artist
Also when I was Horde I was playing with IRL friends that provided me with a guild of people who mostly respected women, whereas when I was playing Alliance I was on my own and had to find guilds of people I didn't know. I was able to find a guild of mature individuals on my Alliance server but they weren't the best players.

And that's the shitty compromise that female players are often faced with in WoW. Sometimes you can't play in groups as good as the ones you could be playing with because they create environments that are hostile to women.
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:iconarmonah:
Armonah Featured By Owner Nov 10, 2012
My question wasn't meant to be entirely serious =P
Alliance gets a bad rep for being the more childish faction, but the two aren't that different. Especially not after the ban of creating characters of the opposite faction was lifted. Still, as a long-time Horde player I would've liked it better if you had said yes x)

Also, you gave some good advice up there, even if you did make the OP's problem sound a bit like a scientific experiment =P
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:iconravynnenevyrmore:
RavynneNevyrmore Featured By Owner Nov 10, 2012  Student Digital Artist
I've played both in equal amounts I think. I might have spent more time raiding and guilding as Horde tbh. I didn't find one side to contain more sexist assholes than the other, although the Alliance contained more female players as far as I could tell.
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:iconilovebigcats:
ILoveBigCats Featured By Owner Nov 9, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
I think you need to move.
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:iconprosaix:
prosaix Featured By Owner Nov 9, 2012
I dont think people belittle women because of their genitals...
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:iconsiegeonthorstadt:
siegeonthorstadt Featured By Owner Nov 8, 2012
"need to rant. I'm becoming one of the things in this world that I hate the most - a sexist fuck. Actually, I'm pretty sure I already am one."

Hey Im sexist too. I dont suspect a woman when I would definitely feel suspicious if it was a man etc

"It just seems like every man I've ever encountered has been a sexist douche, undermining and belittling women because of our genitals. I've never had a good relationship with anybody of the male gender, whereas damn near every woman I've encountered has been nothing but good to me."

Are men douches because they think about women genitals or because they do horrible things?

"-My older brother, who has flat out said that women are stupid and useless on more than one occasion. Refers to them as bitches. I've overheard him say to his friends that he would rape a girl if it wasn't so frowned upon, and they found it amusing. What the fuck."

When a man talks like that it means that he was hurt by a woman really deeply. We do these "im cool and dominatrix" talks to hide out the crying child inside. And we believe that we should at least verbally support our friends and be on their side no matter what the subject is when they are feeling very crap. Im sure that was the case wit your brother.

"-Dad also believes women are stupid and useless and are all whores."

Probably also trying to say that he got hurt by a woman.

"-Shut the fuck up about your dick. I couldn't care less."

I hate dick chatter also.

"-Cat callers. Really, getting hollered at on the street isn't a compliment and doesn't make me feel "good." No, I feel threatened and sickened and I want to hide."

I try to beat up those. But than its women again that condemn me for doing that lol.

"-Boys I've had the misfortune of talking to in general. They ask me to hang out, and I'm friendly - they don't know that in my head I'm trying not to judge them just because they're male. In one way or another, they find out I'm not open to a relationship with them, and that's the last I'll ever hear from them. No loss really, but it just reinforces this shitty idea I have that they only talk to me to get in my pants."

Dont lose hope. Someone nice is bound to come.

"-A woman can't ever truly love another woman or be solely attracted to someone of the same gender? Well then neither can men, nor can they solely be attracted to someone of the opposite gender. Shut the fuck up. (I guess this is more of an lgbt issue, though I've only heard this sort of thing from men who get offended at the idea of actual lesbianism.)"

Why not actually find a girlfriend?

"-No, I don't find kitchen or rape jokes funny. Men don't seem to understand why, but then again maybe I take these things way too seriously."

Those jokes will get old soon dont worry. Nobody likes them. Its just another hype.

"-My World War 2 class. Ooh boy. I've never been in a room so full of sexist pricks in my life. Kitchen/women-are-stupid jokes galore. Fine, I get it, boys in high school are morons, but I can't help but get extra offended when even the teachers join in. Fuck that class."

They probably think thats sexy..

"There's a lot more, but these are things that have happened quite recently. I guess another reason I'm putting this here is because I don't want to be this way. I hate that I prejudge half of the entire human population before I even get to know any of them. But no man has given me a reason to respect them or to believe that they don't think they're better than women. Where are all of these amazing fairy tale men I hear of that respect women as equals? It's gotten to a point where if a guy seems like a good person, I'll subconsciously try to look for anything to hold against him. And I feel sick and disgusted with myself because of it. Some advice on how to not be a sexist ass would be very nice."

Not all men are like that.. Actually certain type of social defections can happen in social things like towns and or certain parts of cities due to interaction thing. Women of that section play a part in this as well, though not as the direct negative factor. Theres no way to prevent to become a sexist ass. You can only throw out the ass part and try to cope with the sexist in you. But often justified feelings like this are best to be fed instead of trying to hold them back.

I actually challenge you about me being a person who at least tries to treat men and women equal.
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:iconantmholic:
ANTMholic Featured By Owner Nov 9, 2012
Sorry, I didn't read through entirely.

Dont lose hope. Someone nice is bound to come.

Trying not to lose hope.

Why not actually find a girlfriend?

Because I don't want one, and I don't think I actually implied that I did.

Theres no way to prevent to become a sexist ass. You can only throw out the ass part and try to cope with the sexist in you. But often justified feelings like this are best to be fed instead of trying to hold them back.

Is it really right to just settle for coping, instead of trying to change?

I actually challenge you about me being a person who at least tries to treat men and women equal. / Hey Im sexist too. I dont suspect a woman when I would definitely feel suspicious if it was a man etc

You lose.
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:iconantmholic:
ANTMholic Featured By Owner Nov 9, 2012
Are men douches because they think about women genitals or because they do horrible things?

What I was getting at was that they treat women like shit just because they're women. I guess what I said wasn't clear/didn't make sense in hindsight.

When a man talks like that it means that he was hurt by a woman really deeply. We do these "im cool and dominatrix" talks to hide out the crying child inside. And we believe that we should at least verbally support our friends and be on their side no matter what the subject is when they are feeling very crap. Im sure that was the case wit your brother. / Probably also trying to say that he got hurt by a woman.

Not entirely sure what you're getting at with the first part. As far as family goes, my brother was treated just fine, especially by my mom and sister, but I can't say I know how he was with his peers or teachers who happened to be female. He and dad never got along with each other. / So you're saying it's women's fault that men treat us like shit.

I actually challenge you about me being a person who at least tries to treat men and women equal.

I don't know you. But if you treat women and men with equal respect, then good for you! :iconfreeinternetplz:
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:iconarmonah:
Armonah Featured By Owner Nov 10, 2012
I actually disagree with ~siegeonthorstadt on the whole "if a man [says he would rape a woman if he could] it means he was hurt in some way". I think entitlement, misogyny or just plain ol' sociopathy is closer to the actual mark. Boys who've been hurt tend to play the victim card, and however much we like to make fun of Nice Guys, they're a whole lot less harmful than people who bemoan women having a right to not get raped. That does not make them victims, that makes them potentially dangerous.

Also, our dear friend up there was the same guy who posted this gem of advice to someone else:
"friend, racial, economical and social iconic double (quadraple or more even) standarts are everywhere, these being most focused around women. they dont think normal, their minds work with symbols and literal/metaphoric aspects. the best thing to do with them is to do what they ask from you: ignore."

Oh no, my poor ladybrain can only comprehend symbols and not think like a normal person. You know... like a man. :roll:

I would take everything he has to say on sexism with a huge grain of salt.
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:iconcedarwoods:
CedarWoods Featured By Owner Nov 8, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
Well I'll just say that despite the fact that I am a guy, I agree with pretty much all your objections to men. George Carlin once said:

"There are only two things you need to remember about the difference between men and women:

Women are crazy.

Men are stupid.

And the main reason that women are crazy, is because men are stupid."


I've been raised in a household that consists almost entirely of women, so I'm more respectful of them than most guys. Not to say that I'm perfect. I don't think any guy is. Not any woman either.

Since that shit starts getting spoonfed to us before we've even left the womb.

"Oh cute. A girl. Are you gonna paint the nursery pink?" WTF?

I like kids but I don't want to have any (because I tend to get overprotective of them). If I did want kids though, and one of them happened to be a girl, I would kindly suggest to my partner that we fill her room with things that were stereotypically male, just to fuck with people's minds.

There's a great song by lesbian singer Alix Dobkin (you can find it on itunes) called Talking Lesbian:

If you want higher consciousness
I'll tell you what to do
You got to talk to a woman - Let her talk to you
You've got to build you a union - and make it strong
And if we all stick together girls it won't be long

We'll have more friends

More freedom

More fun too

Like a'livin in the country

Yeehoo

Of course it's not quite that simple
So I better explain
Just why you've got to ride on the lesbian train
Cause if you wait for the man - to straighten out your head
You'll all be waitin
and then you'll all be dead - and gone to heaven

All alone

All those nice women
just passed ya by

Mmm mmm


Suppose you're working so hard
it's just outrageous

Your life
hasn't mo--ved - in ages
You go to the man but he can't relate
to a woman's mind
or a woman's state.

Well he's puffin his ego
feeling masculine

He's got the whole world he thinks
to stick it in

He looks out the window and what does he see
but a million women and they all agree

They all agree:

Wome--n
lovin women

Is where it's at

Yes ma'am


Now girls you've come to the hardest time
the man will try to hand you every line

He'll plead
he'll argue
He'll sulk and the like

He'll call every one of you
a goddamned dyke

Man-hater

(pause)

Castrater

(pause)

"Men are human beings too.
50 percent"

(pause and count to three in your head)

"47."


Ah workin in the kitchens
here's what we found

Scrubbin the floors
here's what we found

Raisin the children
here's what we found

And being with each other
This is what we found:

If we don't maneuvering
keep us apart

If we we do don't let man-ipulators
keep us apart

If we don't let man-power
keep us apart

Or
Man-kind
keep us apart

We've won

What I mean is
We ain't got it easy but we've got it

(strum to the last few chords)


It will probably sound better if you actually here it. I really like Alix. My family is actually friends with her, though we haven't seen her in years.


My most favorite fictional female character, is Law & Order's Olivia Benson. I love her dedication and passion in the fight to give each victim the justice they deserve. Elliot Stabler wasn't bad either, because he would occasionally beat the shit out of some child molester. Olivia Benson is queen though. My favorite Special Victim's episode revolving around her?

Season 7 - Episode 3 (I think) - 911 (Olivia must find out where a little girl is being held hostage, by talking to the girl on the phone) In the later part of the episode, she's out searching for the girl, and spots a car with a guy in it who matches the description that the girl gave over the phone. She pulls out her gun, and steps into the middle of the street as he drives towards her.

Olivia: "POLICE! STOP!"

He continues to come. She glares and prepares to shoot. He stops about two feet from her.
She never flinches even once.

In the end she rescues the girl.


My favorite fictional female on the big screen (and also my favorite performance by a young female actor)?

Rooney Mara as Lisbeth Salander in The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo.

I absolutely love the American version. In my opinion, if you want a woman who's tough as nails, you want Lisbeth. Lisbeth has all the toughness of Olivia, but none of her compassion.

If you've ever seen the movie you'll know what I'm talking about.

So you're brother would rape a woman if it weren't frowned upon?

Hmmm.

Well let's hope this never happens to him:

[link]

Best woman get's her sweet revenge scene ever (like in the history of movies).



I don't really have any advice on how to not assume men are pigs, because most of them are.

Have you considered that you may be a lesbian?

Just wondering.
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:iconantmholic:
ANTMholic Featured By Owner Nov 9, 2012
I like kids but I don't want to have any (because I tend to get overprotective of them). If I did want kids though, and one of them happened to be a girl, I would kindly suggest to my partner that we fill her room with things that were stereotypically male, just to fuck with people's minds.

Honestly, I feel like that would only fuck up your daughter's mind by the time she gets to high school. :lol: 'Cause of her whole gender identity/society's standards on what gender roles should be.

Haha I've never seen much of SVU so I can't say I know the characters at all.

I don't really have any advice on how to not assume men are pigs, because most of them are.

:c

Have you considered that you may be a lesbian?

I am, but I knew I was attracted to females before I was even aware of the concept of sexism.
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:iconcedarwoods:
CedarWoods Featured By Owner Nov 9, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
I understand what you mean, but if the parents are doing their best to explain to the kid that what they hear out in the world is total bullshit, then hopefully they'll be better equipped to deal with it.

On behalf of the few good guys out there, let me just apologize for being part of the gender that produces the most jerkoffs.

As to being a lesbian, that's great. I wish all people could find love in whatever form they choose to find it in (as long as it's two consenting adults, I don't care).

I wrote this song myself (here's a video to it):

[link]

And here's a free playlist I made:

[link]
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:iconsolum-ipsum:
Solum-Ipsum Featured By Owner Nov 7, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
I say you shouldn't be overly concerned about having any sort of prejudice, just don't let these reflexes influence you any more than preparing for the worst. Always hope for the best, regardless. ;)
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:iconstarlit-sorceress:
Starlit-Sorceress Featured By Owner Nov 6, 2012  Professional Artisan Crafter
Talk to your teacher privately and tell them that when they joke like that, it hurts your feelings. A reasonable person would apologize and make an effort to fix the problem. If your teacher isn't a reasonable person, take it higher up.
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:iconjeweledscarab:
JeweledScarab Featured By Owner Nov 6, 2012  Hobbyist Artisan Crafter
I think part of the problem is where you live. Some places are more ass backwards than others. For instance in my experience all women are two faced bitches that make terrible friends. But that's because most female friends I've had have dropped me like a cold potato while all I my male friends stick by me.

As for the kitchen jokes, half of the humor in those is being able to laugh at an outdated mode of thought and the fact that some assholes still think its a valid form of thought. If you take it at face value, yeah they're horrible. But if you take a lot of jokes at face value they are terrible.

For rape jokes it honestly depends on the context of the joke and whats being said.

It just takes work to not force your personal bad experiences with people on a whole group. Humans just seem to have a tendancy to do it.
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:iconantmholic:
ANTMholic Featured By Owner Nov 6, 2012
It's just funny how it works out for different people. Every male "friend" I've ever had has used or screwed me over in some way, while my female friends are simply the best I could ever ask for.

I never thought about looking at the humor in kitchen jokes that way. I wonder what the intent is of the boys who use them all the time.

It most certainly does take work, but I don't want to misjudge a genuinely good person because of my experiences with a bunch of other shitheads. Thanks for your response.
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:iconjeweledscarab:
JeweledScarab Featured By Owner Nov 6, 2012  Hobbyist Artisan Crafter
I think it depends on the guy. None of my male friends take the kitchen jokes seriously when they say them. It's funny because they don't expect a woman to be a sandwich making machine.
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:iconferaltao:
FeralTao Featured By Owner Nov 6, 2012
I'm completely with you on the jokes because the way they are commonly used are not actually with a "fun" intent. We are not laughing about it together, you are laughing at my expense and giving each other asspats for being "cool bro's". A little joke doesn't hurt but a little sexism here and a little racism there, preferably in a company where women are in minority and the bigger picture gets rather ugly. I doubt most of them even realize what they're doing and that's actually more scary than if they're being dicks on purpose.

If they're dicks you can confront them and tell them to quit the bullshit and even if they deny it, they know what you're talking about. Guys who just don't get it though... it's near impossible explaining what's wrong with what they're doing especially if they don't want to see it. >__>
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:iconpuppy-dangerous:
puppy-dangerous Featured By Owner Nov 6, 2012  Professional Artisan Crafter
So, EVERY man in the world you have ever seen has done that? I doubt it. You're giving the behavior of some people to all of them.
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:iconantmholic:
ANTMholic Featured By Owner Nov 6, 2012
Every man who I've gotten to know in some way has been like that, and I can't help but feel like if they weren't, it's because I didn't know them for long enough. I don't doubt your second point though.
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:iconpuppy-dangerous:
puppy-dangerous Featured By Owner Nov 6, 2012  Professional Artisan Crafter
Wow, that sucks. Maybe you need to move.
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:iconarmonah:
Armonah Featured By Owner Nov 6, 2012
Oh, and as for the whole "Help me, I'm turning into a sexist thing": I don't think you really need all that much help with that. You're not making excuses for what you're thinking. You're aware of your prejudices and you're fighting against them, and it pisses you off (and worries you) that you actually have to fight against them in the first place.

But it's those things that put you ahead of most people, who might hold prejudices towards one sex or the other but never stopped to question them. People such as your gross brother.
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:iconarmonah:
Armonah Featured By Owner Nov 6, 2012
Well, you're still in High School, so there's still hope that these boys will grow out of it. And that you will be able to control your own situations better, later on (when/if you start to attend college for instance). Right now it seems that a lot of the social situations you have a problem with are more or less forced on you. You didn't choose your family members. Nor did you choose to get catcalled or hit on. You didn't choose your classmates. Those are all things that more or less just "happened".

As for boys who stop wanting to hang out with you after they find out you're not up for a relationship - I would guess that, if you're looking to pursue a friendship, part of this is up to you, too.
Yes, it's true that some men will lose all interest if they find out you're not interested in sex or a relationship. And it's also true that if they want something more from you, they will put in more effort to grab, and hold, your attention. And lastly, it's also true that men who start talking to you are more likely to want something from you than if they didn't talk to you, at all.
But I don't think those things are necessarily problematic, and I'd personally rather have men be upfront about their intentions: and if they're not getting what they're initially after either consider "settling" for a friendship (if they genuinely enjoy hanging out with you), or to move on. The reason this sucks for you is because it is, in a way, a form of rejection. And nobody likes getting rejected, even if it's for something you consider a bullshit reason only jerks will consider important (like "not putting out") so there's that.

But it's also true that a friendship is something that has to come from both sides, and men will not be as vigorous in pursuing you for a friendship (nor will women, by the way). And I'm guessing that, with your attitude to men (always being on your guard, and not being exactly receptive to their attention), you didn't try very hard to build or maintain a friendship, either. And so what could've been a friendship, died. The scenario is the same, but the conclusion you and I take from it is slightly different.

This has already been said, but it's good advice: Approach other men instead. If there's one that catches your interest for one reason or another (maybe he's smart, or a good artist, or you like his taste in music) build on that. And if you make it clear to him that you're not looking for a relationship, you'll at least be more certain that if he continues to want to talk to you, it's actually for you.
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:iconantmholic:
ANTMholic Featured By Owner Nov 6, 2012
This is what I'm hoping too, that the boys act stupid because they haven't really matured yet. Still doesn't excuse the teacher though :lol:.

When a guy does ask me to hang out, I assume he has an ulterior motive beyond wanting friendship. And if he does want to be friends and isn't disrespectful, then that's awesome - but that's never happened before. I say yes to hang out with them if asked because it's something to do, and while it would be nice to make friends with them, I don't care enough to want to pursue it afterwards. Then of course I never hear from them again anyway, but I see what you mean that if they actually wanted something like being friends/getting in my pants, they would continue to speak to me. So then this must be more of a personality/lack of caring issue on my part - it's nicer to look at it this way instead of seeing them as users.

I don't try to build or maintain friendships with men, in fact I tend to avoid them which probably only makes this worse. I don't know how to approach or talk to them, and even when it seems like we're having a good conversation, I still feel horribly uncomfortable or that something bad is going to happen. With women though, talking comes so much easier and I actually do make an effort to become friends with them. It's gonna be hard but there are a few boys I don't know very well who haven't acted out, and I'm going to try to open up to them. I just can't help but feel like it's going to backfire in some way.

Thanks a lot for your advice! It's very much appreciated.
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:iconarmonah:
Armonah Featured By Owner Nov 7, 2012
I'm assuming the teacher just wants to score some kind of cred with the students. You know that old sitcom "Saved by the Bell"? I imagine the teacher is kind of like Mr. Belding, trying really hard to fit in with the guys and being thought of as cool. Or maybe he became a high school teacher because he gets to teach students closer to his own mental maturity.

"I don't know how to approach or talk to them, and even when it seems like we're having a good conversation, I still feel horribly uncomfortable or that something bad is going to happen."

This is something that just takes practice. The good thing is that this isn't a "social skills" issue, because you already have an easy time socializing, but just with women. It's more about getting more comfortable around guys.

And I'm glad I could help, you're very welcome! :meow:
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:iconidnidveifencetum:
IdNiDveifencetum Featured By Owner Nov 6, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
And about the teachers making jokes that you're dumb....prove so otherwise.
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:iconidnidveifencetum:
IdNiDveifencetum Featured By Owner Nov 6, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Sexism is normal....you see that everyday.
I know that the sexist statements are double-damage because you're a woman, therefore, those statements are directed to you. So yes, it will hurt. It will.

*sigh* There's little you can do to change this whole abomination. I suggest proving that you're not useless and you're not a whore, you're not stupid and all those? In front of the people who said those? Tell them to shut up? Counter with something like "men can't even cook", "men can't find things they're looking for", "men can't multitask"

^And please don't flame me on that, I didn't really mean to offend anyone. They're good counters though.

And also don't overgeneralize..I know they really make us fume up, but not all men are sexist. I'm not denying the fact that MANY of them actually are. But not every single male human being in this planet is sexist.

Hope this helps.
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:iconantmholic:
ANTMholic Featured By Owner Nov 6, 2012
It's bullshit that it's considered "normal." So that's basically like saying, "Shut the fuck up bitch, deal with it." Why is this acceptable and funny while something like racism is OMFG horrible? Not to imply that it isn't but I think you get my point.

I shouldn't have to "prove" myself to anyone just because I'm a woman. I appreciate your suggestions but I'd rather not throw petty insults back at these boys, I feel like it wouldn't help my case much.

I know that overgeneralizing is bad and I try to catch and stop myself from doing it when it does happen. And I know not every man in the world is sexist, I just haven't been lucky enough to find one who isn't.
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:iconidnidveifencetum:
IdNiDveifencetum Featured By Owner Nov 6, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Yea, throwing petty insults back at them would only add fuel to the fire. I really wouldn't recommend it, but it's my last ammunition.
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:iconluxkrux:
luxkrux Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2012
I used to think that racism against colored folks were "normal" too, but once I moved out of my county, I realized that the place I left behind were just pretty messed up. Where do you live? Men in general are not like that, from what I know (or perhaps I am just oblivious due to "privilege"). It's probably just where you come from. Save up and move out.
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:icontokyov:
TokyoV Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2012
"No, I don't find kitchen or rape jokes funny. Men don't seem to understand why, but then again maybe I take these things way too seriously."
I don't think it's possible to take rape jokes too seriously. Even as someone that's never been harassed (to my face at least) I find that stuff beyond messed up.

Do you ever approach other men? I've noticed that the kind of guys that are hesitant to talk to women are easier to get along with (exceptions on both ends, of course) so maybe if you start getting proactive, you'll find that it's the guys that intentionally come bother you aren't actually the norm. I think you'll have to put in some extra effort if you want to get over this problem; it's great that you're self aware enough to see this in yourself.
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:iconantmholic:
ANTMholic Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2012
I pretty much never approach men, in fact I can't remember the last time I initiated a conversation with one. I hadn't really thought about it this way, though. I appreciate your advice.
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:iconleapinglela:
LeapingLela Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Well your WWII class should be accurate and slightly sexist. But it was a time when women joined the factory assembly line because they needed the extra workforce to keep up with production of goods and worked along side men in a factory floor making every thing from boots to Battleships.

I accept the fact that women are different than men and learned to laugh at the Kitchen jokes and usually respond with "Never fuck with the person who handles your food."
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:iconantmholic:
ANTMholic Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2012
Of course, I realize that women were treated like shit even worse in the 40's, that's not the issue. It's the students and teachers making jokes about how we're dumb. Like, just the other day, somebody who used the lecture room before our class accidentally wrote on the whiteboard with a permanent marker.
The teacher remarks, "It was probably a woman," followed by obnoxious laughter from the boys and them saying we're stupid and should stay in the kitchen. Another time in the class, a female and male student were debating in a mock court project we're doing, and this one kid shouts for her to be quiet, because men are speaking. I wish I were making this stuff up. It's just frustrating because if you get offended by this, you're a frigid bitch who needs to loosen up.
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:iconfirstxaidxkit:
FIRSTxAIDxKIT Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2012  Professional Interface Designer
Why don't you or the other women in that situation stand up for yourselves and say something to them?
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:iconantmholic:
ANTMholic Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2012
I can't speak for the other girls, I'm horrible when it comes to conflict. If I weren't a timid wuss then yeah I'd say something, though they'd probably just say to get back in the kitchen.
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:iconfirstxaidxkit:
FIRSTxAIDxKIT Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2012  Professional Interface Designer
How bout instead of thinking about what they may or may not say, you stand up for something you believe in instead of wasting your breath complaining on the internet. Social change never came from someone keeping their mouth shut.
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:iconantmholic:
ANTMholic Featured By Owner Nov 6, 2012
Because I don't know how to speak up in a situation like that, where most of the class (15 boys + teacher) wouldn't take me seriously in the first place.
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:iconfirstxaidxkit:
FIRSTxAIDxKIT Featured By Owner Nov 6, 2012  Professional Interface Designer
Unfortunately, they think they don't have to take you seriously because they've never been given a reason to in the first place. I'm a firm believer that it doesn't hurt to try. :shrug: If they already assume you're an idiot because you're a woman, what more damage could it do if you said something? It's also a matter of personal will--if you know you would be hurt if they started calling you more derogatory names, then standing up to a class may be difficult. But as someone else said, you could prove to them every day that you're not just a dumb bitch.

Also, I don't know if you read Svataben's (or whatever the fuck their name is) replies to me, but I really did not try to imply anything negative by my posts or be condescending. I don't want you to think that I think you're an idiot, because you're not. At least you acknowledge what's wrong with both them and yourself, and you came here asking for help. I just tend to put things bluntly and speak from a personal standpoint--I give advice based on what I would do in a situation.
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:iconsvataben:
Svataben Featured By Owner Nov 6, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
You're acting like a douche.

Standing up to a room full of people, including an authority figure isn't always easy. Plus, she isn't wasting her time here, she might get some relief from sharing and talking about it.
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:iconfirstxaidxkit:
FIRSTxAIDxKIT Featured By Owner Nov 6, 2012  Professional Interface Designer
I'm acting like a douche because I'm telling her to stand up for herself if something is bothering her, instead of letting it fester? Maybe I'm just a strong person that believes that if you feel something, say something, otherwise nothing changes. I feel bad for people that are upset about something that is in their capacity to have an impact on, but choose to remain quiet. Like I said in the previous post, social change doesn't come from people that keep their mouths shut.

Of course it's not easy. Life's not easy. :shrug:
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:iconsvataben:
Svataben Featured By Owner Nov 6, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
No, you're acting like a douche because of your condescending tone. And the part where you assumed (like the ass you are) that her posting was entirely useless.

Do you think she's too imbecile to realise that speaking up is the right thing? You certainly implied it.
If you actually had wanted to help, and not just be a smart-ass on her expense, you'd have tried helping her on how she could gain the courage to speak up in future, in stead of explaining 'speaking up' as if she were an ignorant.

You kicked someone down. That's what the Complaints forum is for. In here, shut the fuck up.
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(1 Reply)
:iconantmholic:
ANTMholic Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2012
*but I'm horrible when it comes to conflict.
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:iconleapinglela:
LeapingLela Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Then drop the class. Who cares what they think.
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:iconsvataben:
Svataben Featured By Owner Nov 6, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
She should drop part of her education because they're sexist? You can haz logics nao?
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:iconleapinglela:
LeapingLela Featured By Owner Nov 6, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Why stick around for the verbal abuse?
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:iconsvataben:
Svataben Featured By Owner Nov 6, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
because she needs an education.Are you really not seeing anything wrong with advising her to give up schooling?

Are you fucking retarded?
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:iconleapinglela:
LeapingLela Featured By Owner Nov 7, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
First, is there really an excuse for calling someone else retarded who simply stated their opinion on the issue? And Secondly, WHEN did I ever say to give up on schooling in general? I think before you fly off the handle (oh wait never mind, you have) you should reread what I have said.

I believe she should replace the course. Nobody should have to put up with that verbal abuse for the sake of a credit.
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