Dinomar-de-ContisFeatured By OwnerMar 5, 2013Student Filmographer
Urgh... if you want to complain about bronies here in dA, you found the wrongest place ever. Then the compliant forum, full of internet trolls... but if you want a short explanation...
Don't listen to these bronies or the people who talk positively about them: they are both a bunch of smartasses or a bunch of deluded people. There is nothing of positive about them, and who created the series bronies obsess for.
Bronies are not of sure the disgrace of the world, but they are a small part of it: they are "victim" of capitalism. I say that because producers exploit them as much as possible (it happens often among them, but a fandom, even made primarily of the nerdiest people, has never been exploited so much by producers), but there are factors of why these people are wrong at every point.
First, bronies are extremely egocentrical and self-entitled: you may have found some replies like "we fight sexism" or "we are feminists": well, this is egocentrism. Feminism is proven with manifestation and promotion of women's rights, not with watching a... stupid cartoon full of plot clichès. You don't prove to be anti-sexist by watching a cartoon for little girls. (and, by the way, many bronies whine if you say their cartoon with ponies is for girls). They can't also admit there is much better out there. And even if they do, they don't do it seriously and, therefore, the only reason they will watch cartoon ponies is that they are limited and have to get a label, fitting in an omogeneous group of people.
Many of these bronies are also into... pony porn... i won't point out details, you don't need to know them. some of them also do Tulpa, an oscure tibetian discipline that bronies practice so they can see ponies of that peculiar cartoon in the form of... hallucinations. Well, it isn't the biggest issue: If they genuinely enjoy porn with cartoon ponies, it means they have serious problems that don't affect us.
A big problem is that most of them (if not all) are extremely hypocritical and intolerant people. they say this catch-phrase: "love and tolerate", but they think everyone else must tolerate, while they can say anything they want (so, they are egocentrical and self-entitled). Is there a clear and public proof? Yes, there is. There is a fan-made character called Derpy. the author noticed it and implemented it in the cartoon, but Hasbro changed his name because it seemed ableist. Bronies went mental for this... where did all the love and tolerance go? They weren't happy, they also had to find a scapegoat: one casual person who is Yamino here in deviantART (i'd say at the same level of bronies) also expressed his/her dislike towards the "derpy" name, and because of this, he/she had to suffer all the brony rage, indeed, he/she became the scapegoat of the derpy drama. What a squalor.
And with all these stuff that happen among bronies, what does the authoress, Lauren Faust, plus her crew, have to say about them? That they're awesome. She says the complete opposite of what they actually are. She has even taken part of the documentary about bronies (it flopped for obvious reasons).
So, these are bronies in a nutshell. What do you expect by a fandom composed primarily of internet nerds? The fandom has even started in a site full of mentally deviant people. And we also have a producer who exploit these people for a little popularity. Faust has got instant popularity: she has chosen the easy way to handle this. And now she got a big head and thinks she's a kind of celebrity, because people in general like to feel important in some way, and bronies are a perfect example. They are bronies because they are the same people who don't do anything in their dull life but playing videogames, watching anime and peculiar TV series and spending their socialization time in internet forums. "dull life" doesn't mean they don't have a work or a sort of real life activity, but they prefer virtual life of sure: it's where they are successful and where they are important. Bronies hides behind cartoon ponies and Faust, but Faust hides behind bronies.
What more to say? First, don't fall in that trap where you are convinced by some people who say "people like what they like" or "they just want to fight sexism": they don't have opinions, they have prejudges and don't think with their minds. I don't know William James, but he said something of significative when he said "a great many people believe they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices". I really like this quote. Don't listen to bronies, but don't listen even to anti-bronies, who can only say "bronies are gay". or "bronies are pedos". Well, some are, actually. (What? Before you also said being a brony is gay? Like being gay is something of wrong... |:-\ - Being a gay isn't wrong, being an internet nerd who thinks he can do anything even if it is negative is, though)
How to deal with bronies. Well, "deal with it", but not in the way bronies mean: they just don't deserve consideration, at this point: they are mostly sad people (because if you obsess over something, more so over ponies, you are sad, you have some problems and you need a psychiatrist). Bronies are just pure advertisement: if they get ignored, they may stop, but this is impossible. What do you want to do against this kind of people? I do hate bronies of sure. when i attended forums, most of the people who attacked me for any reason were bronies. And one of them was even a furry. And it's so sad to see that your interests (for example, i like videogames) are shared by these nerds, who are also bronies, sometimes. But bronies are basically immature people full of complexes, and now i feel just pity for them and for people like Faust. Does that mean being successful? They just deserve pity.
But right, it's not our problem if they are sad: it is when they annoy us, but then if they want to ruin themselves being bronies, it's their problem. That guy called ~Pigwasher is right.
I really didn't mean it in a dismissive way only that the text is simply too long for a forum post in my opinion and I just wanted to poke a bit of fun on that statement. Sorry if it seemed to be otherwize.
"Don't listen to these bronies or the people who talk positively about them: they are both a bunch of smartasses or a bunch of deluded people. There is nothing of positive about them, and who created the series bronies obsess for."
This statement makes me assume that you hae no good points and makes me stop reading your post since all you are doing here is to bash people who like something you don't.
I read your post now and I must say that I still think that you are wrong on almost every level. All you do is to hide your good arguments in your bantering wich makes it almost impossible to read. I really didn't want to skip over the bettr points in your post but most of it is just whining and therefore the whole thing suffers.
bronies suck ok. and these are the reasons why. 1. they clop. 2. they're gay. 3.they're furries. 4. It's just wrong for teenaged boys and middle aged men spending their free time watching clips and episodes of a show made for a 5 year old girl. 5.They're hypocrites. 6.they're pussies
1. This is partial truth, while I can safely say I do not clop(I hate that term...) and not all bronies clop but I cannot say for sure whether the ratio of perves to non-perves is swayed in the favor of non-perves. So I won't confirm your supposition but I'm not going to dismiss you either.
2. I never got this ideal, how can a group of males that like overtly GIRLY stuff be gay? Wouldn't male homosexuals gravitate to manly yet homoerotic media (Which MLP is not)? Especially when you mention bronies supposed "clopping" habits. You do know 70% of the characters on that show are female right?
3. I would say you aren't totally wrong regarding this assertion. Furries comes in two categories; The first is those that identify as an anthropomorphic creature leading them to donn a fursuit to live out this fantasy. It can lead to sexual fetish but not defining. Then there's those that partake in the fursuit in a purely perverted context, they are in it for the yiff. A brony can easily fit in to both of those categories but they are not two espoused concepts. You can be a brony without being a fur... Very easily.
4. Why do you think it's wrong? If it's no more then a gut feeling you may want to scrutinize your feelings a little more. You will either become more accepting and tolerant of bronies up on realizing your hate is baseless. OR you will find that your hate is justified and your opinion will become stronger and reaffirmed.
5. Can't argue with that, I've seen some PRIME examples of hypocrisy in the fandom, but I will add that not all of them are you can't say Brony = Hypocrit any more then you say Homstuckers = Socially Inept Assholes. It's just an incorrect assertion based on gut feelings.
6. Also can't argue with that, it takes a soft type of person to open up to such a *lets face it bronies* girly show. But I'm not sure I would use the word pussy to describe us, but its crudely apt in a way.
So assuming you are NOT just a random troll I am curious as to why you hate the fandom? I'm going to guess you must have had a run in with the more umm zealous of the fandom and they left a bad taste in your mouth? That or this seemingly odd deviation from the status quo disturbs you in a less tangible manner?
Not really, I just like to take things rational. Hate is seldom rational, key word being seldom.
But if white knighting means defending a view point from irrational scorn then. well. I suppose I am!
Squire! where's my lance! And get my high horse from the stable will ye! Yes the white one, white contrasts the spilled blood better!
That being said I have came to the defense of those posing negative viewpoints about bronies that have truth and are somewhat rational.
As a Brony I know there are awesome great aspects of the fandom and the fans but I also am painfully aware that there's a equally horrible negative side. Namely the intense level of social awkwardness, the hypocrisy, the levels of puerile and perverted behavior. These are not perpetrated by all the fandom but I can't say with any level of conviction that those few decent Bronies are in the majority. But not everything in that guys comment was on a sound base, they needed to be questioned.
And this Homestuckers V Brony feud the guy has mentioned is new to me and strange. Since the person that directed me to ponies also directed me to home stuck stating that it was really good web comic... Maybe things have changed?
1. Not all of them clop. 2. Yes. Bronies tend to be happy people. 3. Liking a cartoon doesn't make you a furry. 4. But girls can like whatever they want, am I right? Oh, and grown men work on producing that show. 5. "Love and tolerate" is a meme, not a requirement for being in the fandom. They aren't hypocrites for not being happy 100% of the time. 6. Ever read a fanfic called "Cupcakes"? Sounds innocent, but it's extremely disturbing.
1.some of them do. 2.by gay I mean feminine 3.I know bronies that are furries. 4. there are some thing out there that girls shouldn't watch. But I will admit that it is stricter with boys because they're expected to be the muscle bound breead winners. 5. alot of them are hypocrite and if u need proof look at the way they treat homestuck fans. 6. I don't care.
It's how they cope I guess. I dunno why it became such a popular thing, but with any fanbase you're gonna have some sickos that paint an ugly picture. Hell I'm 26 and I still watch gi joe real american hero. And that's a show based for little dudes. Not that i wanna bone shipwreck or heavy duty or something. I can't believe once I thought the us military was really fighting with lasers and taking down factories full of teddy bears that brainwashed people.
"When I took the job, I braced myself for criticism, expecting many people — without even watching the show — to instantly label it girly, stupid, cheap, for babies or an evil corporate commercial. I encourage skeptics like this to watch My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic with an open mind. If I'm doing my job right, I think you'll be surprised." —Lauren Faust
Dinomar-de-ContisFeatured By OwnerMar 5, 2013Student Filmographer
Faust's logic is like referring to an african starving child and saying "haha look at that skeleton" after you had a lunch at the best and the most expansive restaurant of the town.
No, seriously, if watching a cartoon for girls means being open minded for you people...
Also, it's pitiful how most of you tend to post TVTropes articles to prove their points... Given that TVTropes's articles can be longer than Karl Marx's "Das Kapital": the latter is an intellectual book explaining capitalism, the other one is a bullshit device used by internet nerds to grov their G-spots.
A heavy anti. Hello. So you don't like Bronies, and you don't like TV Tropes. I like both. I'm sure you like thing I don't. No problems there. Moving on.
I don't see the relevance in your metaphor. Faust actually wasn't expecting bronies. She was simply pointing out that My Little Pony's past is its past. It is a different show now. She put care into the series to make it more than a toy commercial. Faust has worked one other shows (that personally, I loved before I was old enough to care who was behind them) that are also enjoyable, so she has certainly done more than revamp My Little Pony. So she's trying to make girls shows that are deeper than dates and dresses. Is that so wrong?
Obviously, you have done your homework on the bad side of the fandom. You have even pointed out the site of origin. With the fandom so large, it is inevitable that such a dark side exists. The incident with `Yamino is unfortunate, and indeed showcases the dark side. I follow someone on this site specifically because I found a journal entry of theirs I liked detailing that they didn't like MLP because of (bad) bronies. Not to make fun of them, mind you. I simply like this person's way of putting things. This person later posted a journal about a horrific act of Hate and Intolerance by bronies. Terrible to see, but at least I know someone on my watchlist will point these things out where they may be filtered elsewhere.
The ones who misuse Love and Tolerance also put shame to our name. No need to elaborate, you know this quite well. And you're right. I'm waiting for an in-fandom war of Love and Tolerate All vs. Love and Tolerate only applies to Others. Us in the former are ironically self-contradicting at that point, I guess.
Pony porn is just Rule 34. That's a whole new level of - er - to each their own. I won't pretend to understand sexual attraction beyond an evolutionary hormone induced desire to ensure species survival. Which knocks out bi, homo, and asexualities by default as well as furries, anyone not hetero is screwed in that argument. And before I get accused of homophobia, I say 'don't understand' because I actually can't understand. I fall into one of those four other categories myself.
I have seen incredible generosity and talent from bronies. A guy who spontaneously gifted some incredible resources to someone they never actually met ([link]), charities being held on a regular basis and exceeding the goal, and art and music in general. Some of these people have serious talent. As for the musicians, there are some I would/will gladly follow beyond the fandom.
As for Hasbro, they are being generous in return. They are letting the episodes be posted in HD on YouTube moments after release so all can see, staff members are willing to collab with fans, and throw in little shout-outs in the show while keeping its spirit. Never before have I seen something like this happen. A show is just a show, who gives a crap about the audience?
Unfortunately, I'm not exactly the kind to bookmark links to fandom reviews. I have seen one I'd love to link you to, but for the life of me can't find it. I'll make note to keep such links in the future. Also: "most of you tend to post TV Tropes articles". Really? Honestly, I thought that was just me being a jerk like that. OP seemed like a troll, so I felt like "pot-holing" in return. Linking to TV Tropes is my way of saying 'I'm bored, but I'm not going to call anyone names. I'll let you choose whether or not to dare click these links'. TV Tropes is an amusing time-eater that takes opens up new ways of seeing things, checking out if a work is anything I'd like, and generally just a good overall way to amuse myself when I have nothing else to do. Like between classes when I'm stuck at school. So yeah, I tend to link to it for self-amusement purposes. I had no idea it was an oft-used link. I still don't, as I see more inter-links between Cracked and TV Tropes than bronies and TV Tropes. Where am I missing this? Where do you see this?
And here's where you get really mad at me. Your post to the OP... /almost/ makes for a good, intelligent review of the bad side. When trying to tell someone off, cut juvenile sounding name-calling ("it's not our problem if they are sad", "a bullshit device used by internet nerds to grov their G-spots", etc), over-generalizations ("most of them (if not all) are extremely hypocritical and intolerant people"), and circular arguments (arguments that leave no room for debate. For example: God exists because God exists). Stick to the facts (you did good with your links) and more intelligent accusations (Example: you pointed out bronies being "hypocritical and intolerant". Modify that to something like "I often find bronies that are egocentrical and self-entitled" as opposed to the ironically I'm-better-than-you sounding statement of "bronies are extremely egocentrical and self-entitled"). It makes you look better. Mind your wording, and you can show your superiority instead of trying to say your superiority. For short and sweet instead of long, *UltimateRidley below pulled that off nicely.
Shall we continue? Have any nice insights where I could have done better here? I know I really should have saved some better links for you. And it's hard to stay neutral. Actually, this feels inspiring to see if I can draft up a little journal on bronies myself. Of course, I'd need to really step up checking out what the haters are saying as well.
Dinomar-de-ContisFeatured By OwnerMar 7, 2013Student Filmographer
The amount of silliness you have written doesn't amaze me, since it's common of internet nerds.
I didn't use metaphors. Faust is doing all this because she wants to be a rich celebrity, and anyone who denies this is a deluded person (or a kind of smart ass). Faust worked on these "so cool" show because she married the creator of these ones: if she didn't marry him, she wouldn't be the idol of bronies, now. And you think MLP:FiM is a deep TV show? I'm gonna think that the Teletubbies are getting the emotional level of The Shining.
Also, it's common of you saying "the bad side of the fandom"... there is not good or bad side. And in the brony fandom's case, there is the "only side", made of nerdy and immature manchildren who think liking a show for little girls full of pink is original. Given the fact that the fandom has started in a site full of mentally deviant people, it's not surprising. Please don't show me you are sorry for Yamino, because you don't give a damn about what bronies did to him, you just care that bronies have a good reputation. Indeed i find ridicolous how you refer yourselves as "we bronies, we bronies" or "put a shame to our name"... seriously, you are treating the brony fandom as a kind of sect, a religion... it's just a crappy virtual community, do you even realize that? Probably, you don't fully realize it.
And so you are talking about homosexual, bisexuals, asexuals and other people alike, just like i mentioned them? And you even comparing them to furries? Like furries were totally normal people? Not only you are grasping at straws, you have even proven to have some problem... like it wasn't obvious. Stop saying pseudo-philosophical things that don't make sense at all. Indeed "you don't understand": with your point, you have proven you don't understand nothing: you are very superficial.
So, for you, doing a single charity means being heartgold? I knew someone would point that out. True charity is direct, and it is not for the sake of giving bronies a reason to prove how awesome they (you) are, because it is terrible and egoistical and because you don't really care to people you help, you only care to your reputation. If you want to do charity, do it continuously, and don't do it under form of brony, otherwise it is not charity, it's being a hypocritical and attention seeking attitude. Only because that guy you pointed out made an altruistic action... to bronies? I'm sure he wouldn't do anything for homeless people because they aren't bronies. He did charity only to bronies. this doesn't prove anything. Only because of that they are not awesome people. That *BlackGryph0n is a kind of attention whore, and that Caerdwyn too is: he didn't want something... of material in return: now he has all the brony love he could get, probably he wanted that back. So it may be a kind of attention whoring. And bronies are even talented? Well, when it is said "wasted talent".
I doubt Hasbro likes bronies so much. They like bronies's money, though. who doesn't upload HD episodes of any kind before being taken down? If they wante to be generious to bronies, they wouldn't take down that Fighting is Magic or MLP online stuff. Come on, if you didn't even heard of this... The problem is that brony advertisement is not comfortable for Hasbro, since it damages Hasbro's own advertisement for the real target demographic for their toys: they are accepted by Hasbro because it's a fuel made of money... but seriously, did you ever heard of Marketing? The way you think makes me believe you didn't at all. And who is the staff who is collaborating with bronies? Faust, who didn't just need instantaneous success and now she thinks to be a celebrity while she's just a big-headed dunce? Tara Strong, who is just a moronical baboon who thinks calling a mentally disabled fan is something that will make her a better person? John de Lancie, who is just a starving dude who didn't play anything than a stupid Star Trek villain? This is the staff you are talking about? What an awesome staff!
TVTropes is just the device for bored nerds where they want to express their "anime" fetishes (because they have entire sections dedicated to it) or where they think to be great writers while they are just wasting their life online writing pointless bullshit... not that i care, but at least don't prove me wrong on this.
What i have written to the OP (and to who is clever enough to understand my points) is not a review, it's truth (and if it is not all truth, it is not the 40% that Azza said: it may be the 85%: the rest may be generalization, but it's up to the reader to understand whether the poster is generalizing or talking about everyone)! I didn't give a rank to the crappy fandom. And then you are even saying i should sugar-coat my words, but i don't sugar-coat anything: it's wrong at all respects. sugar-coating doesn't make me look better, makes me look a smart ass, and i'm not a smart ass.
Seriously, you are not trying to make me (or us if there are clever people) understand your fandom better, you are just trying to defend it with a lot of excuses and lies. Really, instead of defending your fandom like it was a sect, a real community, a kingdom, grow up! If you think being part of a fandom makes you look cool, you need to grow up. Wearing a mask or holding a label makes people weaker than ever, especially if it is a mask or a label coming from a fandom
I replied only to have some points people can occasionally read, but i doubt i will find people willing to fully understand. The problem with people like you is that when you find someone like the OP who ask question as a sceptical person or someone who just say "brony are retarded", you have fun provoking them with "love and tolerance" replies showing how awesome you are (common of bronies, otakus, furries and people alike), but if someone else throws out reasonable points, you either start to insult or throwing out prissy and do-goodist nonsensical points, even grasping at straws. This is why "sane people" either hate bronies or think they have serious problems! Because if you really think MLP:FiM is a deep cartoon full of content everyone must watch, you have serious problems and you really need a psychiatrist.
Shall we continue? I'd rather not, thanks: i replied for readers (stupid or clever people) not for you, i already know you are pig-headed. And it is not an insult.
"...there is not good or bad side. And in the brony fandom's case, there is the "only side", made of nerdy and immature manchildren who think liking a show for little girls full of pink is original" - What about female fans who really just don't care about age labels? Are you saying they don't exist? What abut other stereotypes? Dumb blondes. They're all dumbasses, aren't they? Doesn't matter who they are. They're all the same.
"Because if you really think MLP:FiM is a deep cartoon full of content everyone must watch" - At least to the latter, no. To each their own. It is a bit insulting to be called mentally retarded just for liking a TV show, that's all. While I do semi-understand some the source of the hate, it doesn't change that it happens. One can understand why they got punched in the face, but it still hurts. Kind of makes one want to punch the other right back.
Sugar-coating? Though I've seen much worse than you on the board of I'm-just-trying-to-call-you-stupid board, it helps both sides when neither is calling the other mentally handicapped manchildren or closed-minded douchebags. So not name-calling is sugar-coating? Okay, then. Closed-minded douchebags, it is. Pardon me if I simply dislike using such tactics. It is unfair of me to think that others might consider that as well.
Before I continue, I wont. You appear to think I'm a deluded, egotistical, superficial, pig-headed manchild grasping at straws from behind a mask. I see you as someone who had potential but chose to hide behind shallow insults with fear that it may be possible to be mentally stable and enjoy something way out of one's periphery demographic, instead accusing of any attempt at discussion as "insults or prissy and do-goodist nonsensical points". There is no way for this to end peacefully, so all that's left to do is agree to disagree.
Dinomar-de-ContisFeatured By OwnerMar 8, 2013Student Filmographer
Oh god, i am even discussing with a brony troper... a thousand of suppositories are better, at least i do that to cure myself.
Seriously, it's clear you didn't understand a word of what i have written, but i am replying again because this time i am not referring to readers in general, i am referring to you and bronies directly.
Stereotypes are not always wrong! The brony stereotype is one of these! And the fact that people like you (male or female you are no one gives a dick), some recurring trolls like that furry ~h-irsch, that =MasterPlanner, that ~Rezelsheft and many other individuals who came here specifically to piss on the author of this thread, or even that ~Cindertwig who it is not worth the time, do confirm this negative stereotype. You and these people have this kind of obnoxious attitude... and you even wonder why people hate you? You even deny this stereotype? The stereotype of the egocentrical, self-entitled and hypocritical nerd who think loving cutesy makes them better? Because, again, this stereotype is confirmed by all these individuals who didn't even try to improve the situation. And you bronies even complain about the infamous "haters" (you really like this word, don't you?) who reply to you negatively? You way of acting is like saying "The dog hates me" then i kick the dog, it bites me and i say "See? The dog hates me". You do the same, and it is ridicolus.
The real reason you and the rest of the bronies watch this stupid TV show is that you did need the feel to grasp at some specific omogeneous group, since MLP:FiM should be a cartoon for girls which teaches a lot of (extremely fake and do-goodist) life lessons, so, these nerds thought that watching something they shouldn't (they are permitted, but they shouldn't: there are a lot of good things over there and you chose MLP:FiM? and you even wonder why people do find this strange? When it's said "wide interests"...) makes them feel special and important. The average human being needs to feel important, even in the wrongest way. And so do bronies: if they didn't need attention, they wouldn't even be bronies. This sense of self-importance and self-entitlement makes you bronies one of the most elitistic group you can find among a community of average people. And this is why we have intolerant nerds attacking one singular person for the sake of doing it.
All the normal people are right to hate people like bronies because they don't prove anything but to be a bunch of pathetic and obnoxious manchildren who really hide behind a fucking monitor, not because "you like what we don't like". We don't give a damn fuck! As much as i care, you can emasculate yourself.
If you "bronies" want to keep being a brony, watching a TV show which isn't even worth it, revolving your lives over it like it was a proper culture and having a stupid and senseless label even denying you got it (it is even contradictictory: you say you don't care to have a label, but at the same time you still say "we bronies, we bronies, as brony, as brony" like you were part of a sect), seriously, like italian people would say, "Cazzi vostri". It's not our direct problem. But if people make fun of you, don't complain, because, given how you "bronies" approach in a horrible way whith people who are not bronies and who find you odd (again, see individuals like that ~h-irsch or that =MasterPlanner), it is totally comprehensible. Basically, i came here to spend my spare time and, effectively, doesn't affect me this brony idiocy (although i dispise and pity these people). This is the last you see from me.
I honestly didn't expect you to note that I could be female, carrying this label around. Not being sarcastic here: nice one. I did happen to type that last post under the influence of day 1 of the monthly menstrual cycle, possibly explaining my being more irate than normal.
However, I keep going back and fourth wondering whether you are actually pointing out legit problems or you're just angry and saying whatever necessary to dismiss anything positive. Both, I guess. Unfortunately so, for the latter.
As I said, on many things we disagree. I did do a bit more looking into you, since you peaked my interest. Your blog says you frown upon fandoms in general. That same blog also pulls out reasoning that make my four years of schooling in psychology scream at some real misunderstandings about human nature.
Instead of metaphorically screaming through my monitor, I'll not. After posting, I shall have done something that will make you think me even more cowardly and fake. I agree that we disagree, and no good can come from trying to trying to be civil under such circumstances. It appears to me that you are full of despise for many things in life, not just bronies. I will not try to change that. It is your right to be who you are.
There are plenty of others around who don't care about My Little Pony and those who do, as well as meat-eaters and vegans, pro-life and pro-choice, atheists and religious. Two sides can attack each others' positions and not see the others as soulless empty shells. I have seen personally how it is possible to coexist in harmony, as long as each respects the other, and that is where I choose to be. This is the internet, after all. This has been an enlightening chat. I thank you for showing me the true colors of what I have previously only read about. So I suppose that his is the last you hear from me as well. Let's make sure of that, shall we?