It's not a Christian nation. It's a do-whatever-the-fuck-you want nation and I like it that way. I shall form a cult to demonstrate. HAIL THE GREAT RHINO! Also, we're not a concrete republic. It's a dominant-party presidential system, democracy, yes, republic, federation... Now, the education system wants to one more lather-rinse-repeat cycle with you first.
Second, you need to improve your grammar, spelling, and punctuation, and avoid using chatspeak when you write a thread. People frown upon that.
Third, this topic is really better suited for religion and politics. People get a little bit too vicious on this forum to discuss touchy subjects like that.
Fourth, have YOU read all of those documents yourself, looked up the history behind them, and drawn your own conclusions from said studying? Or are you just repeating back something that someone else told you, even if it's somebody that you believe to be highly intelligent?
Don't get me wrong, I consider myself to be quite the patriot. However, I don't think we are like-minded patriots because, frankly, you just embarrassed me greatly by posting this. Things like this are reasons why patriots aren't the object of much respect nowadays.
One thing people seem to rarely, if ever, mention, is that when the Founding Fathers said "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" they were talking about different Christian groups in America, Baptists, Lutherans, Quakers... Catholics, etc. If one is going to make this their main argument for saying America was never a Christian nation, they're sadly mistaken. As for all those Founding Fathers who "didn't like religion", they were outmatched by a people and society Christian to the core. Christianity bought the freedom Americans enjoy today. For people who don't like that, go to somewhere else where Christianity was not at one time at the root of the culture. It soon becomes obvious that for everyone else, Life, Liberty, and the Right to Retain Property (that's the original wording) just doesn't happen in those places. Check out the Middle East, India, and China when they aren't paying lip-service to Western criticism. Of course, Americans have already sabotaged their own Right to Life, but that's beside the point. If anyone wants to pursue it, I'm happy to talk more.
The majority of the Founding Fathers were not Christian in fact they were Agnostic and some of them leading towards Atheism. They wanted the government and stage to be SEPARATED due to the treatment of how Religion was FORCED upon them in a certain previous country.
Christianity did not brought freedom to America did. People did and sadly whetever or not you like it. Violence was also an important root to America's orgin.
Here's an excerpt from an article, and I will leave the link if you wish to read the full article. The author is David Barton.
"John Adams himself declared that the Rev. Dr. Jonathan Mayhew and the Rev. Dr. Samuel Cooper were two of the individuals “most conspicuous, the most ardent, and influential” in the “awakening and revival of American principles and feelings” that led to our independence. Other ministers whose influence and leadership were also important included the Rev. George Whitefield, the Rev. James Caldwell, the Rev. John Peter Gabriel Muhlenberg with his brother the Rev. Frederick Augustus Muhlenberg, and many more. (The exploits of many of these ministers are recorded in several older historical works, including The Pulpit of the American Revolution, The Patriot Preachers of the American Revolution, and The Chaplains and Clergy of the Revolution.) Regrettably, today we don’t hear much about the role of the church – of ministers and Christians – in the founding of our civil government."
Also, as to the majority of the Founding Fathers not being Christian, over 54% were Episcopalian/Anglican, 18% were Presbyterian, 16% were Congregationalist, and then the rest were a mix of Quaker (4.3%), Dutch Reformed (3.7%), Lutheran (3.1%), Catholic (1.9%), Huguenot (1.9%), Unitarian (1.9%), Methodist (1.2%), and Calvinist (.6%). That adds up to a majority.
Here is the context for my findings, which you can peruse at your convenience. These were the men who stood up for our Freedom, and for most of them, what drove them was their determination not to give up their God-given rights. Christianity brought freedom to America. I'm sorry if you don't like it.
yeah your first link is of a Christian BLOGGER. and a Speaker for a Christian group.
Please don't link BLOGs but read Articles that have been published and credited.. Its a little sad that the only proof you have is from some Internet Christian. I can link to you thousand of Atheist bloggers who disprove David every means but I am not going to do that since Bloggers aren't really a great example of history.
So sorry you are very biased and you need to step out of your comfort zone and maybe read less rants and articles on a Christian blogger who doesn't even seen to be quoted anywhere else for so far I have notice.
SHOW me some history page that is without biased and is crediting some historical records.
How is what you just wrote not a rant? But be that as it may, I have given my numbers. You have given none. Back up your statements on "the majority of the Founding Fathers being agnostic bordering on atheism." I have provided evidence, and your own bias refuses to accept it.
when the Founding Fathers said "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" they were talking about different Christian groups in America, Baptists, Lutherans, Quakers... Catholics, etc.
Thomas Jefferson clearly intended the establishment clause to keep church and state separate, he coined the phrase "separation of church and state". He didn't intend for the government to remain non-denominational, but separate from religion entirely. The principles behind the intent of the establishment clause apply to all religion in general. Jefferson believed that "religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God".
Christianity bought the freedom Americans enjoy today.
What the fuck? No it didn't, people did, and they didn't do it in the name of religion, they did it in the name of freedom. Please open a history book sometime.
It soon becomes obvious that for everyone else, Life, Liberty, and the Right to Retain Property (that's the original wording) just doesn't happen in those places.
You beg me to open a history book sometime. I would likewise ask you to open some primary documents rather than depending on the predigested secondary and tertiary documents given to you in high school. You might get a better grasp of the history if you actually read the texts of those who wrote at the time--beyond the pleasant snippets of Thomas Jefferson.
I've read primary documents. I didn't get my history from high school hun. Who remembers that whitewashed crap? Those who wrote at the time? Like who? Madison maybe? The one who actually wrote the first amendment? Also secularist.
Here's another "pleasant snippet of Thomas Jefferson" for you:
The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
But go ahead and try to tell me its taken out of context.
Out of curiousity, have you read Calvin's works on limited government. His was the seminal writing for our mode of limited government (which is Jefferson's point here). I am curious if you would actually make the logical application of Jefferson's quote that the government's role is to prevent injurious acts. Are you willing to give up the New Deal and all the legislation that has followed in its reasoning? If so, you are reading Jefferson correctly there.
Also, Christianity in US was and still is a religion of immigrants. A tiny bunch of immigrants fighting amongst each other and after one group wins, they declare freedom. You do not need religion to be a good person.
Hey, thank you for answering. I'm sorry if I wax long, but I wanted to answer your questions and thoughts as best I could. Know that I'm not here to persuade you of anything. I just want to make my position clear.
Actually we do need religion to "be a good person", to be more accurate, we need Christianity, because we are born evil, and it's through God's saving grace and the restraint of His Spirit that we manage not to turn this world into Hell. We are born hating God and everyone but ourselves. It's called being a sinner. It breaks every part of us, including our reason, so that when we look around we seem perfectly righteous and wonderful all by ourselves. At the mention of sin, we tend to be upset, because obviously we're good people, and anyone saying we aren't has issues. That's how much sin warps our thinking. Our eyes see black, and our hearts register it as white.
The truth is, everyone "has" a religion. Religion means "belief" and everyone believes something. It's what motivates them even when they don't know it, it's what they found their whole world on. People who claim to be "without religion" are making a statement of belief just by saying that.
You asked what I know about India, China and the Middle East. In India, a girl can be engaged to a man when she is still in the womb, and if he happens to die before their marriage when she's three, she must remain in widowhood for the rest of her life. The caste system traps people in the station to which they were born, forbidding improvement of any kind for those who happen to be at the bottom. These people are known as "Untouchables" who were obviously born destitute and at the bottom of society because they deserved it. Their right to the freedom of improving their circumstances is forbidden to them. Strangely enough, the most receptive group in India to the Gospel of Christ has been the Untouchables, because before God's judgment and salvation, all men are either His enemy, or His royal adopted children. That message resonates strongly with them.
In China, the State comes first. Anything else is a threat to their claim of absolute authority. This means that if the State commands you have only one child, then any more children forfeit their lives. If you are a girl in the womb, your chances of making it out alive are few, because families want sons, not daughters, and they only get one. Strangely enough, the supremacy of the state isn't a problem for Hindus and Buddhists, because in their system man can rule supreme. But for Christians who follow the sovereign God who makes kingdoms to rise and to fall, the story is different. They can't give their all to the State because they are bound by God's law to love Him first, and to in turn love their neighbor. China made the appearance of opening up to the world at the Olympics a few years ago now. Before they did so, they wiped out all the underground Christian churches in the area, because if something about them came up at an awkward moment, the Chinese government would have been exposed.
Now, about the Middle East. The Middle East has been a land of turmoil for nearly four-thousand years. Throughout this history when they weren't united in conquest, they were divided in battle among themselves. This conflict isn't new, but dates all the way back to the conflict between Isaac and Ishmael in Genesis. Islam is simply the new face of this ancient struggle. I could go into their mistreatment of women, where two-thirds of women executed for adultery were pregnant because they were raped, and did not have the required three male witnesses to protect them. I could mention the school fire where young women were forced back to die in the flames by policemen because they weren't wearing veils, thus rendering them "naked." I have seen the scars and disfigurements dealt to women who became Christian and were abused by their muslim families. Their strength in the face of persecution shows me it's wicked to take my freedom to write things like this for granted.
I look at these places, and they are not free. It's impossible. Because every religion of man will have man at the top, and it will be man deciding what's right and what's wrong, and then imposing it as tyranny on his neighbor. That includes Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Mormonism, etc. Christianity has God sitting in His rightful place at the top, who gives all men the freedom to do good within His mercy and grace. That is why Freedom is so important to Christians who bother to think it through. It's a thing no man can take from you, try as he might. For if God has given you freedom, the evil laws of men will not withstand it. The only way to lose it is to turn away and give it up voluntarily, because to turn from God is to also look at His gift and say that it's worth little.
Yes, Christianity came to the New World for the first time many years ago. It flourished and grew, but because Christians are men, and men are still sinners, we had many shameful chapters in our history. And yet through God's grace these Christians founded a nation where they could be free to worship Him, and enjoy His world. Other men oceans away saw that freedom, and realized they didn't have it. So they came, and we welcomed them, because they were seeking something good, even if they didn't understand what it was that had made it possible, that the freedom we have, is the inevitable fruit of a Christian culture.
I want to thank you if you read all the way through. We can talk more if you want.
Have you ever gone out of the US? I mean, actually gone to Middle East, India and China? Apart from that, you say that all men are sinners. What proof do you have? If it is the Bible you are quoting, then I am not going to consider it a valid argument since I can pick up the book,say lord of the rings and say, orcs existed. You do not see them since we defeated them in many wars. Also, what proof do you have, apart from the Bible, to say that God exists?
The Church has committed horrors after horrors in the name of God. Would you condone them since they are Christians? The Spanish Inquisition, the Salem witch trials, killing scientists so that they cannot educate the masses and not to mention the rape of young boys by church men and the pope trying to shield them. Can you explain that?
Women were not and are not better treated by the Church. Have you ever seen a woman pope? Can you imagine a woman being a pope? In the Bible it is written that, "If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days." You call that equality?
If an atheist chooses to help someone because he feels sorry for that person, do you still think he is a sinner?
The Christian societies have been at each others throats for thousands of years. The hundred years war for example. That was one long war. Your lack of knowledge on history is disturbing. Are you not contradicting yourself when you say that" Christianity came to the New World for the first time many years ago. It flourished and grew, but because Christians are men, and men are still sinners, we had many shameful chapters in our history." and before that saying , "Actually we do need religion to "be a good person", to be more accurate, we need Christianity, because we are born evil, and it's through God's saving grace and the restraint of His Spirit that we manage not to turn this world into Hell. " If Christianity cannot save men since they are sinners, then what good are they?
Some of the best run countries in the world are secular countries. The only time Christianity had a strong hold on Europe, it was called the Dark Ages.
Also, there is not much difference between Christianity, Islam, or any other religion except for the language you speak.
I am shocked by your level of ignorance. You should go out and see the world for yourself. Check your facts before you state the opinion of others.
Thanks for giving me such a lengthy reply. I'll try to answer as many of the points you raised as I can.
Yes I have been out of the US, but no, I have not been to the Middle East, India, and China. Yet the sources I cite are primary. Are you refusing to believe my evidence because I have not physically been there? Should I then dismiss everything you say because you haven't physically been there either?
The Bible is the Word of God. It is inerrant, and infallible. Lord of the Rings is a wonderful fantasy that at no point claims to be the Word of God. Did you know that the Bible was the first and for a long time only book to be called the Word of God? Cheap imitations followed after people came in contact with the Bible. Mohammed heard of Christianity first, and it's Bible, and then decided he didn't think it fair, and would make his own version. Never mind that he was illiterate. Joseph Smith was in contact with Christianity, and decided he didn't like it. So he wrote his own version as well. Both the Koran and the Book of Mormon are pathetic attempts when compared to God's true Word.
Something tells me you're rolling your eyes at this point. I can understand. My reasoning seems circular to you. I believe the Bible is the Word of God because God has said it is. How do I know God says it is? Because He wrote it in His Bible. What kind of reasoning is that?
You ask for proof. Remember how I said earlier that sin twists us so much our reasoning is broken? I will offer you proof, and I already know you will not accept it because you hate God and refuse to come to terms with Him. "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament shows His handiwork. Day unto day offers up speech, and night unto night reveals knowledge". Creation itself shouts God's glory, and we sinners are so dull we can't hear it. Yet we're still responsible. "For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead (is understood); so that they are without excuse. Because when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools." The world around us testifies to God's presence. Our conscience, the hold His Spirit has on our evil hearts tells us when we do evil, showing us that we sin against Him. It shows us that we are created beings, and being created we owe our entire being to Him, the Creator. And we naturally hate that.
It's interesting that when you bring up the "Church" you bring up the Roman Catholic Church, who ruled that their words are equal to the Bible, and that Mary is practically a goddess to whom one offers incense and prays, the "Church" which made reading the Bible illegal and persecuted Christians who actually read it and stood up to saw that the Bible said they were sinning.
Will I condone the evil acts of sinners who were sinning when the Bible said they were sinning? No.
I'm going to leave the Roman Catholic Church out for now. Christian societies do treat women with respect. All the Bible ever says is that women weren't to be enlisted as soldiers, and they weren't to be pastors, because the relationship between a man and a woman of love and respect is mirrored in a relationship between Jesus Christ and the Church, for Jesus is the Groom and the Church is the Bride. Men and women in Christianity are equal in every respect regarding the law. God made them both different, in that men are expected to lead, and women to help, and when men won't step up, women fill in the gap if absolutely necessary.
You referenced one of the case laws. People always do. Strangely enough they don't bother to read all of it. It's repeated in Exodus 22:16-17 "And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife. If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins." This is the equivalent of the boyfriend who finally convinces his girlfriend to have sex with him. Sex without her father's permission (marriage) was rape; none of this "she really wanted it" business. The consequence was that he had to pay her dowry, which would provide for her, raise her economic standing, and only if the father consented (and women were never forced to marry against their will) would the wedding take place. If the boyfriend in question is a serial rapist, the penalty was instant death. If the man and woman however had simply gone too far, and the boyfriend was an okay guy, then the father with the girl's consent, (why would she have sex with him in the first place if she detested him) would have them married. And when they were married, as you said, "he may not put her away all his days." That means that he can never get a divorce. She could divorce him if he gave grounds, but the only person with no say in the matter is the guy.
Also, in the case of rape, and I'm now contrasting with the Islamic law that requires a woman to have three male witnesses to decide if she was raped or willing, I'll give the Biblical case law. If a woman is raped "in the field" that is, in a place where no one could have heard her if she screamed, it doesn't matter if she was willing or not. The man was instantly executed, and she went free because "she screamed and there was none to save her." Even if she hadn't screamed, it didn't matter. The man should not have put himself in that situation. If a woman was raped "in the city" where she could have gotten help to save her, and she chose not to, then man and woman were both held accountable "because she was in the city, and she did not cry out."
If anything, I'm surprised guys aren't rising up in arms about this horribly "unfair" advantage to women. So yeah. I would call that equality.
"If Christianity cannot save men since they are sinners, then what good are they?" Religion does not save sinners. God saves sinners. "This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief." Whenever religion (which in its fullest meaning is each man's system of beliefs, including yours) contradicts God's word, it only corrupts. There have been throughout history and to this day men who claim the authority of religion and yet, like you, contradict God's word and do evil continually. It takes no genius to see this. But then if men are just sinners "...then what good are they?" Jesus said, "there is none good but God." That is why they *need* a Savior.
I find it interesting that you automatically accuse me of ignorance simply because I don't agree with your opinion. You have not established your bona fides, and yet you accuse me of a lack of knowledge in history. You express your opinion as absolute and true without consideration of your own possible misinformation. Your arrogance is not even cute. Just sad. You have chewed, swallowed, and digested the fiction you have been taught and then mock others who, by God's grace, have not been so misinformed. Don't run to your history book, run to the actual texts and accounts from which the book is supposed to draw. You might find that tales you have been told do not line up nearly so neatly as you now believe.
i understand more than you know that my writing skill is horrible. i didnt have the best schooling & have spent most of my days laboring with my hands, the sad part to that is im usually one of the brighter people in groups. to all the nay sayers AGAIN i say, im looking for like minded people. congrats you can kick a man while hes down & writes a frustration when hes angry & tiered. i must have forgotten that no one makes mistakes when their in that state of mind. all of you have shown me one thing though, humanity is reaching the point where it is no longer worth saving.
You have the absolute right to speak your mind in this country, as guaranteed by the First Amendment, HOWEVER it does not shield you from any critique of what you say. That is the trade-off of living in a free and open society. That's also how we come up with new ideas and ways to solve problems. Thesis + Antithesis = Synthesis