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December 10, 2012
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Contradiction in maturity

:icondanostergren:
DanOstergren Featured By Owner Dec 10, 2012  Professional Photographer
A deviation of mine was recently flagged as mature, and a nice mature tag was slapped onto it. Now to be honest, I'm not upset about it, but it did get me thinking. The photograph in question [link] is a fashion portrait of a girl, and part of the styling includes a really beautiful see through dress. Two days before the shoot I picked up the most recent USA issue of "W" fashion magazine, and saw quite a few topless ladies in many of the ads and editorial pieces. This magazine is $4.99, and sold on many magazine racks with other such publications as Vogue and Harpers Bazaar, which also contain topless ladies and are low priced. Considering the low price of these magazines, and that they are sold so widely, they are definitely easily available to a young audience. This is something that I see as a good thing and as very progressive for a society that is so ridiculously ashamed of the human body. So when I uploaded the photos from this series it didn't even cross my mind to flag them as mature. It's not pornography, nor is it sexually suggestive. Honestly I think it's beautiful.

So here is the contradiction: I feel that adding the "mature" flag to pieces like this is the result of an immature person who can't handle seeing the human body even slightly in the nude. What is your opinion?
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Devious Comments

:icontheravenbard:
theravenbard Featured By Owner Dec 15, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
It has everything to do with the objectification of women and the oversexualization of nudity.
Nudity does not equal sex and art always reflects that, censorship is the enemy.
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:iconrubberyparts:
RubberyParts Featured By Owner Dec 19, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
I really do not like it when people act like that. It's pretty stupid, and I really wish people would figure it out.
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:iconrendjur:
rendjur Featured By Owner Dec 13, 2012
Eh, I wouldn't go as far as calling someone 'immature'. I think people just have different tolerances to how much nudity they can handle (even if it's for an art or fashion related project). I think it has a lot to do with what they were taught by their parents/friends and what not.

And I think with some younger kids, maybe they don't understand what is 'artsy' or not. I dunno.
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:iconmarx-man:
MARX-MAN Featured By Owner Dec 13, 2012  Professional Artist
Just you wait till somebody calls you 'childish' for using 'adult language', only then you will be a master of the "WTF, I DON'T EVEN..." face.
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:icondanostergren:
DanOstergren Featured By Owner Dec 14, 2012  Professional Photographer
I've already mastered that from some of the replies I've gotten in this thread...
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:iconmarx-man:
MARX-MAN Featured By Owner Dec 14, 2012  Professional Artist
Complaints Forum - Did you expect people to care?
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:icondanostergren:
DanOstergren Featured By Owner Dec 14, 2012  Professional Photographer
No, I came to vent.
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:iconrua--briongloid:
Rua--Briongloid Featured By Owner Dec 13, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
People are way too "Oh nooo think of the children" it's a stupid society where a little bit of flesh can get people all sorts of buttmad.
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:iconzodiacgal:
zodiacgal Featured By Owner Dec 13, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
Some people are kinda sensitive to that. :shrug:
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:iconjellybean9000:
Jellybean9000 Featured By Owner Dec 13, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
I guess people are just that sensitive, these days. :shrug:
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:iconsinisterstick:
SinisterStick Featured By Owner Dec 13, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
Try going somewhere in the East, you'll have better luck there.
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:iconytcyberpunk:
YTcyberpunk Featured By Owner Dec 13, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
But that's the whole point of the "Mature" button. It means that a person must *be* mature in order to look at your picture. Immature people who can't handle nipples, swear words, blood, or politically incorrect humor are barred from Mature Content for that reason.
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:icondanostergren:
DanOstergren Featured By Owner Dec 13, 2012  Professional Photographer
Good point. Thanks for not being hostile about it!
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:iconperfect12386:
perfect12386 Featured By Owner Dec 13, 2012  Student Photographer
The picture is beautiful, but I can understand why it would be considered mature. Myself, I'm not ashamed of the female form and I do find it very beautiful, however there are many people out there who find it embarising. Myself, I see it as art, where as someone who is not an artist would just see two nipples. I would not think twice about showing these kind of photos to my 15 and 17 year old cousins, however their Mum might not be as thoughtful as me. I think basically the mature tag is there mainly to protect the people who are scared of a nipple being on show.
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:iconarteeste:
arteeste Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012
This thread shows why a background in both sociology and biology is better than just one.
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:iconesnym:
esnym Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012   Digital Artist
In my opinion nudity =/= mature. Breasts, contrary to what seems to be the popular belief, are not just a toy for dudes to fondle and jerk off to. They're just a part of the female anatomy. Their primary purpose is feeding babies. If guys can show their nipples and moobs in public, why can't gals? Sexist much? XD
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:icondanostergren:
DanOstergren Featured By Owner Dec 13, 2012  Professional Photographer
EXACTLY! Thank you!
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:iconsporkbotic:
sporkbotic Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I think it's mostly to protect people who are browsing at work or school. Your point is valid, but there are a lot of reasons a "mature" content filter would exist.
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:icondanostergren:
DanOstergren Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Professional Photographer
Very good point!
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:iconcindarellapop:
CindarellaPop Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Student Traditional Artist
Welcome to America, where you can buy pictures of breasts for four bucks at any convenience store, but wear them out in the same store and you can get arrested! :la:
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:iconrockstar1009:
rockstar1009 Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
NO SHIRT NO SHOES NO SERVICE :iconmadnoesplz:
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:iconpinkmitten:
Pinkmitten Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012
And don't forget no breast feeding!
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:iconcindarellapop:
CindarellaPop Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Student Traditional Artist
Heaven forbid we use them for their intended purpose of feeding babies! That's obscene! Next thing you know they'll be mating in public!
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:iconhametsunocharge:
HametsuNoCharge Featured By Owner Dec 11, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Well this site is populated by a large amount of younger teenagers, and a good deal of kids not yet 13 (just like fanfiction.net though it's not supposed to be). It's perhaps not wise to show such an audience things like a see-through dress.

On the other hand....that is a really pretty dress.
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:icondanostergren:
DanOstergren Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Professional Photographer
I can understand not showing them pornography or things where the breasts are being sexualized [forgive me for my lack of a better term], but in this case, it's a fashion portrait, and the dress and body compliment each other and the setting. It's fine art, not something pornographic or inappropriate. To me, the human body does not became something only a mature audience can see until it crosses over that line of being inappropriate or pornographic.
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:iconhametsunocharge:
HametsuNoCharge Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
True, the model isn't particularly posed in a suggestive way nor is the setting "sexy" so to speak, but it might not have to be.
Children pick up pretty early on that female breasts and nipples are not things publicly shown, and it is bad to do so. They don't have to be taught, jut like they don't have to be taught that girls play with dolls and boys play with robots. The culture is so deeply ingrained that it's insinuated unconsciously, sometimes even against the personal belief of said adult role model. Kid's pick up on things like that very quickly and by the time they're old enough to access the internet, baring a breast is firmly sexual...It takes a few years for them to mature out of that mind frame.
It's good that you can appreciate the human form for the artistic work that it is....it's just that a good fraction of the audience is too young to understand it that way.
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:iconstaple-salad:
staple-salad Featured By Owner Dec 11, 2012
I doubt you're going to see nipple in a magazine that is accessible to children in the US. Likely you will in some European countries (like Germany) that aren't as prudish.

But mature doesn't mean "porn" on here or anything similar. I fail to see what the problem is.
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:icondanostergren:
DanOstergren Featured By Owner Dec 11, 2012  Professional Photographer
Go check out the latest US version of "W". I bought mine from Barnes and Noble. I even said in my original post that this IS where I found it, but it's your prerogative to not believe me. I'm not a liar though.
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:iconstaple-salad:
staple-salad Featured By Owner Dec 11, 2012
And there were full on nipples in there, no shield in front of the magazine?
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:icondanostergren:
DanOstergren Featured By Owner Dec 11, 2012  Professional Photographer
Correct.
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:iconstaple-salad:
staple-salad Featured By Owner Dec 11, 2012
Then you found something very strange for the US, since Cosmopolitan here has shields in front of it in most stores now.

Though, given that W magazine is not owned by nor affiliated with DA, and magazines are governed by different policies than websites catering to the 13+ demographic, it doesn't have much to do with your work being marked Mature or not.
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:iconkitsumekat:
kitsumekat Featured By Owner Dec 11, 2012
Quit your bitching.
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:icondanostergren:
DanOstergren Featured By Owner Dec 11, 2012  Professional Photographer
Please point out where I'm bitching. I'm making a simple topic for discussion, you seem to have the problem with it, otherwise known as "bitching".
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:iconsinisterstick:
SinisterStick Featured By Owner Dec 13, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
Welcome to the Complaints Forum, how may we serve your butthurtness today?
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:iconkitsumekat:
kitsumekat Featured By Owner Dec 11, 2012
Please point out where I'm bitching.

You made this complaint.
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:icondanostergren:
DanOstergren Featured By Owner Dec 11, 2012  Professional Photographer
In a forum asking for it. Quit coming into a forum made for complaints and telling people to stop it. That's redundant.
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:iconkitsumekat:
kitsumekat Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012
In a forum asking for it.

Oh yes, this forum ask for people like you.

Quit coming into a forum made for complaints and telling people to stop it.

Nope.
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:iconhoneydue:
honeydue Featured By Owner Dec 11, 2012
Not only is it a bit immature, it's also sexist. Living in the US, sexism is still present, and the woman's body is always continuously being sexualized regardless... It's transcended through history and left a mark on today. Personally, I think your piece is beautiful and does not require a mature content filter , it's not sexual, nor is it inappropriate. It's natural, and quite simply, the human body.
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:iconwerwin:
werwin Featured By Owner Dec 11, 2012  Hobbyist
couldnt agree more with you. I mean... the person who tagged it doesn't have breast? or her mother? :/
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:iconsvataben:
Svataben Featured By Owner Dec 11, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
It shows a woman's nipples, yes it's mature. There is nothing wrong with something being mature.

In fact, I find your problem with marking stuff Mature as rather immature.
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:icondanostergren:
DanOstergren Featured By Owner Dec 11, 2012  Professional Photographer
Well that's an opinion you're entitled to, and thank you for that label. I find your problem with me having a problem with nudity being seen as mature instead of natural to be quite immature, so it looks like we're even here.

There is nothing mature about it in my opinion, nor sexual. It's all in the subjective view of the viewer who looks at it and decides to put a mature or sexual connotation to it.
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:iconsvataben:
Svataben Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
Pet, that wasn't opinion, it is fact.

If you think there is nothing sexual in that picture, you'd be lying to yourself as well as me.

Also: Mature contains more than just overt sexuality.
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:icondanostergren:
DanOstergren Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Professional Photographer
I don't see women as any sort of sexual object darling. Just as certain people don't see a man's bare chest as sexual, not everyone see's the female chest that way either. Yet men can walk around just about anywhere with their shirt off [and I do see something very sexual in a man's chest] and not get a second glance for it. That sexuality in the female breast has been created by social constructs, which was part of the inspiration behind this topic. I was pointing out why I felt that this is immature, because it's sexist.

And you can keep trying to get under my skin by calling me pet and a liar, it wont change my opinion on this topic.
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:iconsvataben:
Svataben Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
But that's just my point: Just because you don't see women a certain way doesn't change the fact that it is the norm to do so.

And please, darling, don't tell me that gay men can't recognise what is considered sexual in the opposite gender, even if it doesn't give them the tinglies. :roll:

"That sexuality in the female breast has been created by social constructs,"
WRONG. Not only is the human female breast inflated in such a way as to make it less easy for a newborn to suckle, simply because the inflation serves as a signal that the woman is young and healthy/well-fed; there are also nerves in the nipples that go straight to the same place in the brain as stimulations of the clitoris does.

Human female breasts are sexual. End of.

"And you can keep trying to get under my skin by calling me pet and a liar, it wont change my opinion on this topic."
Keep trying? Anyway, your little 'darling' isn't any different, now is it?
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:icondanostergren:
DanOstergren Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Professional Photographer
So are men's. I'm not going to stop arguing this with you.
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:iconsvataben:
Svataben Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
You just said it was a social construct, but now you've flopped completely and are claiming that men's breasts are inflated, and that men have clitorises.

You really should stop arguing with me. :lol:
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:icondivine--apathia:
divine--apathia Featured By Owner Dec 13, 2012  Hobbyist Photographer
Technically, men do have clitorises. Both the penis and the vagina grows from the same thing.
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(1 Reply)
:icondanostergren:
DanOstergren Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2012  Professional Photographer
No, I never said any of that actually. That was my bad for not being more clear.

To say that people don't have a sexual reaction to a large chest on a man is untrue as well. The fact that men can still walk around with their shirts off and women cannot is sexist.
And I wont stop arguing with you, regardless of how rude or condescending you are to me.
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(3 Replies)
:iconmasterplanner:
MasterPlanner Featured By Owner Dec 11, 2012  Professional Artisan Crafter
Because Western culture sexualizes women's breasts, and American culture is furthermore very concerned with preventing underage children from being exposed to sexual stuff.

Reasonable people can disagree on whether the above is, well reasonable, but our laws are informed by our cultural mores, and since deviantArt is based in the United States, it has instituted its Mature Content policy so as not to run afoul of state and federal laws. :B
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:iconredmarlin:
redmarlin Featured By Owner Dec 10, 2012
I would be more upset about it if it were an 18+ filter, but considering any ragamuffin can sign up to DeviantART and click through the mature filter, I wouldn't take it too seriously. It's more about adhering to site regulations than anything.
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