I apologize for this being so long, but as it probably doesn’t have a chance to be selected as a news item, I decided to post it here. As I browse around the DA site, there are a lot of questions being asked about the philosophy behind the forthcoming program, which will be implemented this coming September. If you aren’t familiar with the proposed format, it is suggested that you read $Spyeds’ journals:
The first journal is an introduction, where those who dwell in “window-less gray rooms filled with no art, looking at blinking lights” meet the “millions of artists here.” Inherent within this marriage is talk of the social science being conducted at DA, and the reader is introduced to the concept of the “group.”
Starting with the hypothesis that DA is unnavigable (why hasn’t a proper search engine been engineered?), the solution is presented in the form of arraigning the artists and their works into these “groups.”
In theory, this will streamline the DA experience by categorizing certain artists together so that when a visit is made on one particular group, the viewer can see many artists who share a common criteria (what that criteria consists of is never elaborated on). This will aid other deviants as well, enabling them to make better use of their time as they are able to pick and chose which groups they wish to visit, determined by that groups “rating (more on this later).”
Because there has not been an in-depth explanation on how this program would work, conjecture has arisen. What follows are some of the concerns that have been “voiced” from various deviants as one travels through the DA landscape:
How will the groups operate on a day-to-day basis? Is an artist automatically placed in one? Is it determined by skill level, type of art, page views, etc.? If an artist creates in a variety of mediums, does the art get split up among different groups? Will some of an artists’ work be accepted, and some not? Are these groups “allowed” to interact? What if a member doesn’t like the group they find themselves in? Is an artist able to change groups, or is one a set member for the duration of their time on DA?
In “Scaling the Deviants: Part Deux,” the reader begins to find out some of the particulars. The main objectives of the plan are stated as twofold: “Connect people who should be connected”, and “Provide flexible environments that enable community leaders to provide value.”
The explanations which are given in the following section, “We the People” are not entirely clear. I quote:
“In addition to being a technology company, deviantART also serves as what is effectively the land of a pure capitalist democracy. We provide the platform (the land) and we allow the people to purely elect who rises and who falls. Instead of money (resources) as a focal point for deviants, our focal point is the most loved art and artists. Every day that passes art rises to the top and/or falls to the bottom entirely based on either skill or entertainment value as it relates to a massive community of people who "vote" in the system. Some deviants receive more love than other deviants. And everyone works towards receiving the most love. Usually in the form of comments, favorites and +devwatches.”
While it may be true for some, personally I don’t participate in the DA community to receive love. I come here to look at other art, be inspired, and communicate with people of like mind. Yes, I do enjoy it when the work that I do is appreciated, but I don’t create art with the intent of seeking popularity. I create art because I am an artist. Read carefully paragraph number two of “We the People” and perhaps one begins to understand that, although the “groups” are seemingly initiated for other deviants, are they really being organized for other purposes?
Saying that the “problem isn't quantity, its quality,” Spyed proposes that the answer is to allow the Community Leader (compared to entrepreneurs) to “inspire the fragmented community to produce and bring to light higher quality art work.”
Under the current system, Spyed provides a formula which, if followed, will equal “success:” “X” is how much time one spends on the site. “Y” is how good the work you submit is, and “Z” is leaving comments, journals, or, “being unique”. Artists who do these three factors will be assured many page-views, and in return, that their work will be seen by many others on the website. However, this isn’t good enough, so the new program must begin.
“Where Art meets Corporation” is the nuts and bolts of the second journal, where the reader is told the role of group (community) leaders:
“We need ART GROUPS with a hierarchy structure permitting the leaders of "groups" to control who has access to publish, represent and maintain the group. We need anyone in the community with leadership skill to start a group and begin building what could be a massively popular destination for millions of visitors.”
How are group leaders chosen? Are they self-appointed? What if a leader abandons a group? Does that group disband, or does the most “popular member” take pre-eminence? What, exactly, is meant by “controlling who as access to publish represent and maintain the group?” Do they control what can be displayed? Does the art on DA need to be controlled? What criteria will be used to control it? Who, exactly, does the ranking? What if personalities clash between a group leader and a member of that group? What if the group leader prefers one style over another? What if an artist works in a variety of styles?
What is presented, in a word, is structure. In and of itself, structure isn’t a bad thing. Here’s an example: If you pour concrete onto the ground, it has no shape and will not do anyone any good. First, a form must be built, then the concrete poured so that when it is soft, the form will provide shape until the concrete hardens. The hierarchy spoken of in Journal Two provides a pyramid type structure which makes it easier to manage the millions of artists that have come to call DA home. By “grouping” these artists, there is an ever ascending tier, the level of control and authority becoming greater as one approaches the apex of the pyramid.
“Applied to deviantART this means;” If you want to stay a member of the prestigious groups, you will only submit work that meets the criteria of that group, or, as presented in the journal, “every artists reputation within a peer group becomes intimately tied to their value proposition to that peer group.”
The benefits are also put forth as an increased opportunity for younger artists to learn, increased traffic for artists participating in the system, as well as greater motivation and support.
Point Four states that “deviantART would no longer feel so big and cumbersome; the "population density" of deviantART would thin out, even as the overall participating audience grew by millions.
Would it thin out because beginning artists and those who create art “for fun” would leave, feeling disenfranchised by a system which rewards those who make the site look good, and punishes those who just want to learn and communicate with other artists? Who are the millions of overall participating audience? Other artists? How would this system provide greater learning opportunities over the current system for beginning artists?
In the Conclusion Journal, we are now told how the formula of X, Y, and Z will apply once the groups are in place. Elaborating with greater examples of what the formula consists of (and how it is applied), the parallel is then given that those with the most page-views, hence, the most popular artists on DA, are doing everything right! Out of the ten deviants with the most page-views listed (according to their own definition), 1 is a comic book artist, 3 are photographers, 1 is a macabre artist, 1 is an art student, 1 is a Network Developer, 1 is a procrastinator, 1 is a comic book club, and 1 is a surreal artist.
Without taking anything away from the artists listed above, is popularity the proper criteria to determine what is good or bad art? I believe the artists in the list would most assuredly say, “no”. Does page count alone determine popularity? If popularity is the goal, shouldn’t all the other “less popular” artists seek to emulate what those with the most page-views do?
The journal closes out with the following:
“Groups will be a simple system for users, it will take years for the deviantART society to embrace it properly, but the sooner it launches the sooner that process begins.”
It seems to be clear that this new system of community leaders, groups, and rankings are coming to a DeviantART site near you. Because we have been given the bare bones explaination of how it will all work, in closing, a few more questions must be asked:
Is ranking a self-fulfilling prophecy, in that, the ones who are ranked “in the top groups” continue to get better rankings because, let’s face it, they will get looked at the most by virtue of their ranking?
Is the whole ranking system being devised, not to help deviants communicate and learn, but in order to sell advertisers at a premium rate by guaranteeing them that their ads will be placed on pages with the most views? Advertisers who can’t pay as much can be offered “secondary” positions on the hierarchy tree.
Because of the new submission agreement, which states that DA can electronically reproduce you work (Internet, Mobil Phones, television, Palm Pilots, etc.) without your express consent, is the new group system being implemented to see which artists retain their popularity, hence, their “viability” to DA as people associate it with a place to obtain “free, quality art” for use on the latest technological device?
I understand that, as the site continues to grow, it has to produce capital to remain a viable entity. I’ve never had a problem with that aspect. But, are the artists that comprise the art and soul of DeviantART being sold a “bill of goods” under the auspices of community, when its real purpose is to facilitate the company? Anyone ever play chess?
Questions. They can be the darndest things, sometimes. As a contributing member of the DA community, what are your thoughts on this matter?
Hi, giadrosich. Didn't know you were an official beta tester. Cool. As for my response to this proposed scaling of the deviants, I'm not too fond of it. Not because of what is going by between jark and spyed at the moment, but because I didn't come to DA in the first place to be placed into a group. I came as a lone artist to share what I could with the rest of the artistic community, to learn, and to see what other artworks I like and would influence me. From the sounds of this new system, I and many others would be placed systematically into groups, which would be controlled by a 'head manager.' The only bad thing about giving so much power to one person in the sense of art is that everyone has a different sense of what's good and trash. Say, the person in charge doesn't favor traditional art. Well, that knocks some people out, and if they can't submit anything but digital - wouldn't that be an indirect way of squelching someone's vision and technique? Or if a group favors anime but discards photography and still lifes - what would happen then to those deviants who are in the minority?
The risks are far too big, and the whole thing to me reeks of a caste system where they would be untouchables and then the middle people followed by the brahmans. No one should be an untouchable, and if we get too many brahmans, it leaves many of the middle people struggling to fit into this convoluted puzzle.
I would prefer DA to stay in its current format where we learn and do so communally and individually without 'head managers' watching our every move. We do art for ourselves, and our friends, and to learn. I personally would rebel against a 'head manager' on DA telling me what to do or dictate the course of action regarding me when they don't even know me. It's an art site; no one on DA is my employer or client.
Hi, Giadrosich...you have put so much thought into this. I appreciate your insightful comments. I have a business/marketing background so I do tend to see things the way a good CEO would. I hope my conclusions are wrong:
What Spyed is talking about IS a great corporate concept in order to increase sales/use of artwork. By directing art buyers and art appreciators to groups of well established or "valued" artists, DA can refine its overall marketing strategy to those whose artwork is deemed more worthy (saleable). I think what most artists forget abut any corporate entity, is that for the administrators and board directors, the direction will be directed toward the bottom line.
"Community" is what attracts artists, "Good Art" is what attracts art buyers of every form whether they be stock buyers, fine art collectors or assignment illustration managers. I obviously don't agree with the direction this is all heading, but we all signed up for this some time ago when the contractual elements of this site were edited and spelled out these terms.
Hey, thanks for putting so much time and thought into this.
For me, the major problem comes along here: "In addition to being a technology company, deviantART also serves as what is effectively the land of a pure capitalist democracy."
Capitalism and Socialism (and Communism, which is not Socialism) all share the same flaw. They over-look the part where people suck. Granted, Capitalism assumes people suck more, and tries to play off that, but a pure capitalistic society always leads to Monopolies. The original idea of Capitalism incorporated a Judeao-Christian value system where the individual gave of their own money to support those who had less. Also, the business treated the customer with respect (theoretically.)
Now days, those values are largely dropped in favor of the bottom line and the shareholders, the social, environmental, and long-term effects be damned. (For Example: Wal*mart has destroyed many small communities by undermining local business. Also, the resisting of Energy companies to implement filters and clean energy technologies that we already have.)
In this case, I think it very likely that "artistic" monopolies will quickly appear. Basically, once you're at the top, it'll be your pictures, your art that gets presented. Then you will be the one getting the page views, and not many will look deep into the depths to find the meager beginners who show promise, or the newbies that have talent. People who came for the community will leave because they will find themselves ignored. Deviant art will likely become a dead community, more of a gallery for people to shop in, IMHO.
While I understand the need to make money, I feel that the implementation of this idea will strangle the community, which thrives on interaction of artists of all levels. Maybe if there was a pure "sale" page, a sort of Deviant Store Front, these ideas could be applied without abusing the community.
I think a good majority of people came to dA to express their individuality through their art. If this "hierarchy" is implemented into dA's structure, that individuality is drowned out because we're being placed into labeled groups. And it will also prove that dA is more of a popularity contest than a community if it's only basing art by popularity and not creativity.
I honestly don't like this system at all because it defeats the purpose of being individual and creative. I came here to improve my art, not become a sellout.
Just one correction to your comments that I would definitly suggest you include this in your description: DA can reproduce artwork on All Media. Not just electronic media. I looked up the definition of "Media" and it is: Media are print (newspapers, magazines) and electronic (radio and television) and communication devices.
Just one correction to your comments that I would definitly suggest you include this in your description: DA can reproduce artwork on All Media. Not just electronic media. I looked up the definition of "Media" and it is: Media are print (newspapers, magazines) and electronic (radio and television) and communication devices.
Thanks so much for your reply, RetroSushi.
I have to agree with you, in that most artists feel very strongly about being individuals. Whenever it is time to create, it's just you and the paper, canvas, etc.
Hopefully, the groups thing will be more along the lines of current club status. I can see how this would work. One could have the option to join a club/group or not and associate with those of like mind. There would still be plenty of room for cross-fertilization of ideas among individual artists and other groups.
Thanks for reading all that text, Joumana.
In all probability, it may not be as drastic as it seems. My main reason for posting this essay was because we really haven't had any answers about the particulars, and as I browsed around DA, I kept noticing a fair amount of discussion about this topic, and these were some of the concerns that I saw being voiced.
Most people, in order to give something validity, coach it in a lot of vernacular. I mean, one can say "ice cream cone," or one can say "vertically assembled globes of flavored cream crystals packed in a sugar cylinder."
This might just be a case where the rethoric overblows the concept. Hopefully, the groups will be more along the lines of clubs which one can join or not and still participate on an individual level.
We will see. Thanks so much once again. I have to admit that it wasn't terribly exciting reading, but it was something that I wanted to get some opinions on.
Have a great time everyone and please fav this article so as many people can see the featured works. I would recommend seeing each one and faving them too.
Daily Literature Deviations is a group that is dedicated to bringing literature to the forefront of the deviantArt community. We attempt to accomplish this by daily featuring Literature artists from around the community that deserve the recognition, but are not getting it.
Each day we will feature 5 deviations from the Literature categories in a News Article. In order to support the artists that we feature, we ask that you the news article as well as check out the individual pieces. We understand that each day you may not be able to check out each and every one of the pieces, everyone has their own things going on. We just ask that you make an attempt to help support the growing Literature community.
I'd like to show you some awesome nature related work from more or less unknown artists which deserve more attention - this is a must see, you won't regret it!!!
^Ikue has been a devious member of our community for almost 7 years and in this time he has proven to be nothing short of dedicated and devoted. Whilst volunteering his time over the last 22 months as a Gallery Moderator within the Community Relations Team, Chris has brought the Vector gallery and many vector artists directly into the spotlight. ^Ikue's commitment to the community is evident in everything he touches and you can always find him reaching out to others with an encouraging word. Chris is a natural leader with a vibrant and empathic personality, and is a role model for deviants everywhere. It's ev... Read More
1. Scaling the Deviants.
2. Scaling the Deviants: Part Deux.
3. Conclusion of Scaling the Deviants.
The first journal is an introduction, where those who dwell in “window-less gray rooms filled with no art, looking at blinking lights” meet the “millions of artists here.” Inherent within this marriage is talk of the social science being conducted at DA, and the reader is introduced to the concept of the “group.”
Starting with the hypothesis that DA is unnavigable (why hasn’t a proper search engine been engineered?), the solution is presented in the form of arraigning the artists and their works into these “groups.”
In theory, this will streamline the DA experience by categorizing certain artists together so that when a visit is made on one particular group, the viewer can see many artists who share a common criteria (what that criteria consists of is never elaborated on). This will aid other deviants as well, enabling them to make better use of their time as they are able to pick and chose which groups they wish to visit, determined by that groups “rating (more on this later).”
Because there has not been an in-depth explanation on how this program would work, conjecture has arisen. What follows are some of the concerns that have been “voiced” from various deviants as one travels through the DA landscape:
How will the groups operate on a day-to-day basis? Is an artist automatically placed in one? Is it determined by skill level, type of art, page views, etc.? If an artist creates in a variety of mediums, does the art get split up among different groups? Will some of an artists’ work be accepted, and some not? Are these groups “allowed” to interact? What if a member doesn’t like the group they find themselves in? Is an artist able to change groups, or is one a set member for the duration of their time on DA?
In “Scaling the Deviants: Part Deux,” the reader begins to find out some of the particulars. The main objectives of the plan are stated as twofold: “Connect people who should be connected”, and “Provide flexible environments that enable community leaders to provide value.”
The explanations which are given in the following section, “We the People” are not entirely clear. I quote:
While it may be true for some, personally I don’t participate in the DA community to receive love. I come here to look at other art, be inspired, and communicate with people of like mind. Yes, I do enjoy it when the work that I do is appreciated, but I don’t create art with the intent of seeking popularity. I create art because I am an artist. Read carefully paragraph number two of “We the People” and perhaps one begins to understand that, although the “groups” are seemingly initiated for other deviants, are they really being organized for other purposes?
Saying that the “problem isn't quantity, its quality,” Spyed proposes that the answer is to allow the Community Leader (compared to entrepreneurs) to “inspire the fragmented community to produce and bring to light higher quality art work.”
Under the current system, Spyed provides a formula which, if followed, will equal “success:” “X” is how much time one spends on the site. “Y” is how good the work you submit is, and “Z” is leaving comments, journals, or, “being unique”. Artists who do these three factors will be assured many page-views, and in return, that their work will be seen by many others on the website. However, this isn’t good enough, so the new program must begin.
“Where Art meets Corporation” is the nuts and bolts of the second journal, where the reader is told the role of group (community) leaders:
How are group leaders chosen? Are they self-appointed? What if a leader abandons a group? Does that group disband, or does the most “popular member” take pre-eminence? What, exactly, is meant by “controlling who as access to publish represent and maintain the group?” Do they control what can be displayed? Does the art on DA need to be controlled? What criteria will be used to control it? Who, exactly, does the ranking? What if personalities clash between a group leader and a member of that group? What if the group leader prefers one style over another? What if an artist works in a variety of styles?
What is presented, in a word, is structure. In and of itself, structure isn’t a bad thing. Here’s an example: If you pour concrete onto the ground, it has no shape and will not do anyone any good. First, a form must be built, then the concrete poured so that when it is soft, the form will provide shape until the concrete hardens. The hierarchy spoken of in Journal Two provides a pyramid type structure which makes it easier to manage the millions of artists that have come to call DA home. By “grouping” these artists, there is an ever ascending tier, the level of control and authority becoming greater as one approaches the apex of the pyramid.
“Applied to deviantART this means;” If you want to stay a member of the prestigious groups, you will only submit work that meets the criteria of that group, or, as presented in the journal, “every artists reputation within a peer group becomes intimately tied to their value proposition to that peer group.”
The benefits are also put forth as an increased opportunity for younger artists to learn, increased traffic for artists participating in the system, as well as greater motivation and support.
Point Four states that “deviantART would no longer feel so big and cumbersome; the "population density" of deviantART would thin out, even as the overall participating audience grew by millions.
Would it thin out because beginning artists and those who create art “for fun” would leave, feeling disenfranchised by a system which rewards those who make the site look good, and punishes those who just want to learn and communicate with other artists? Who are the millions of overall participating audience? Other artists? How would this system provide greater learning opportunities over the current system for beginning artists?
In the Conclusion Journal, we are now told how the formula of X, Y, and Z will apply once the groups are in place. Elaborating with greater examples of what the formula consists of (and how it is applied), the parallel is then given that those with the most page-views, hence, the most popular artists on DA, are doing everything right! Out of the ten deviants with the most page-views listed (according to their own definition), 1 is a comic book artist, 3 are photographers, 1 is a macabre artist, 1 is an art student, 1 is a Network Developer, 1 is a procrastinator, 1 is a comic book club, and 1 is a surreal artist.
Without taking anything away from the artists listed above, is popularity the proper criteria to determine what is good or bad art? I believe the artists in the list would most assuredly say, “no”. Does page count alone determine popularity? If popularity is the goal, shouldn’t all the other “less popular” artists seek to emulate what those with the most page-views do?
The journal closes out with the following:
It seems to be clear that this new system of community leaders, groups, and rankings are coming to a DeviantART site near you. Because we have been given the bare bones explaination of how it will all work, in closing, a few more questions must be asked:
Is ranking a self-fulfilling prophecy, in that, the ones who are ranked “in the top groups” continue to get better rankings because, let’s face it, they will get looked at the most by virtue of their ranking?
Is the whole ranking system being devised, not to help deviants communicate and learn, but in order to sell advertisers at a premium rate by guaranteeing them that their ads will be placed on pages with the most views? Advertisers who can’t pay as much can be offered “secondary” positions on the hierarchy tree.
Because of the new submission agreement, which states that DA can electronically reproduce you work (Internet, Mobil Phones, television, Palm Pilots, etc.) without your express consent, is the new group system being implemented to see which artists retain their popularity, hence, their “viability” to DA as people associate it with a place to obtain “free, quality art” for use on the latest technological device?
I understand that, as the site continues to grow, it has to produce capital to remain a viable entity. I’ve never had a problem with that aspect. But, are the artists that comprise the art and soul of DeviantART being sold a “bill of goods” under the auspices of community, when its real purpose is to facilitate the company? Anyone ever play chess?
Questions. They can be the darndest things, sometimes. As a contributing member of the DA community, what are your thoughts on this matter?
--
"I Ink, Therefore, I Am."
A member of the Loreena McKennitt Club.