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July 28, 2011
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Can Anime, Manga, and Anthro be considered "Real Art", And are colleges accepting to it?

:icontechnosara:
TechnoSara Featured By Owner Jul 28, 2011  Student General Artist
Hello.

This is actually from a blog i accidentally found when looking for Art Colleges. Im looking early because ive been told its better to plan early than later on.

So i found this "blog" type thing about.. a year ago? Yeah, its STILL bothering me. It's been bothering me even more now im getting closer to college.

I love drawing anime and manga, and this kind of... made me lose A-LOT of my confidence as an artist. Now i must say, im not planning on doing anime and manga my whole future college career- i want to explore more styles and options and get better at more than just anime. Learning to do much more than one thing can really help you.

Now lets cut to the chase- i was lurking around search engines and found a Journal/blog type thing. Some of these people got bashed :icontrollfaceplz: (troll anyone?) for even liking this fun hobby.

The person writing it, and many commenters say that they went to Art Colleges to learn. Many of them liked to doodle anime and manga every once in a while.

One says that their teacher had a TRASH BIN SPECIFICALLY FOR ANIME AND MANGA. it was labled and everything. She even had "Classroom Laws" against it. The commenter was doodling a character, then the teacher swiped the paper off the desk and into the trash can, while a fellow student was being praised my the same exact teacher by drawing ANTHRO, FURRIES, ETC.

"Anybody can draw japanimation proffessionally. Just pick up a pencil! Its not art! anybody can do it!"

I really, REALLY disagree on that. You can just do it and be a proffessional and BOOM. No. It just doesnt work that way... And a TEACHER says that. What happened to accepting diversity and different ways of making art and thinking?

Now, we got a person with a different view on this comment. This was just starting, and i read more.

They were talking about how Anime and Manga cant be considered as real art in the same league as Piccasso or Leonardo DeVinci. "You just dont see anime in modern art galleries. That just doesnt happen. they're not in the same league."

That i sort of agree too, BUT.

Im following an artist on FB. YEAH FACEBOOK.

They were just in the "Ads" but i looked anyway. They were making anime-styles art in oil pastels, paints- it was absolutely beautiful. it changed my veiws on anime style, especially how a picture of two Anime-styled wemon wearing gaudy and very detailed kimonos were standing in front of the Eiffel Tower- all dyed in warm colors. Its amazing. Anw better yet- IT WAS SUBMITTED INTO A PROFFESSIONAL ART GALLERY.

Now heres the question (sorry for the long story)- Should Anime and Manga (even animal type characters) be considered "Real Art"? And are college art teachers accepting to the anime and manga style?
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Devious Comments

:icongwendolyn12:
Gwendolyn12 Featured By Owner Aug 2, 2011  Professional Traditional Artist
I see everyone's posting suuper long comments so Imma keep it simple, yes, I do think Manga/Aniem is art and I draw in such style.
Why? Because that's what I like. Manga helps me express the world in the way I see. I don't do it because it's 'popular' (and actually I started drawing manga way before I discovered it's popularity, and its 'stereotype').
I don't like how people think anime's all about huge eyes and inexistent noses/mouths though. I've seen many styles semi-realistic in face shape, body structure and coloring, and still being manga. Anime is just a branch of realism for me. To improve my anime art I had, and am having to study from life. So whatever:shrug:
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:iconcryptfever:
cryptfever Featured By Owner Aug 2, 2011
Teachers are there to teach you techniques and methods in art, whilst showing you the variety of styles and art movements through history and their pioneers to give the lessons an academic edge as well as inspiring young artists to think the same way. Understanding how and why things were done are more important than just mimicking someone else's style, which is essentially what most young people who draw 'anime' are doing. Mimicking. And putting mimicked styles into a portfolio for art college is a big no-no.

Anime was not and is not an art movement and really shouldn't be labelled as a style of its own, it's a cartoon and a simplification of real life the same way as any cartoon in the world western or otherwise.

Most teachers won't allow you to draw Disney characters in lessons when you should be doing a still life or an anatomy study or something else focusing on learning, understanding and developing. Your furry-anthro classmates were likely showing a good sense of human/animal anatomy, shading, realism and a sense of learning in their pieces. If they drew anime anthro characters they probably would have ended up in the trash bin as well.

Also many students who draw anime are those close minded ones who refuse to try studying real life, or shading or anything outside their favorite fandom or think it's 'too hard' or 'boring'. They need to wise-up. If they want to get good and do this for a career they have to have the drive and the passion to study everything and not stick to a comfort zone.

eg. I hated futurism and abstract painting. I hated learning about it, drawing it and looking at it. In the end I came up with a final piece for my exams which was expected of me. By actually sitting down and doing it for myself I started to enjoy it. It's not my favorite art movement but I can respect it now.

For me cartoons are the end product, not the learning process. I see school/college like a giant block of clay and every time you learn something new you chip away at the block, until you are left with a refined and sculpted area to focus on. Mine was concept art and illustration that I focused on. For others it would be cartooning, comics or animating. But we all started off the same.
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:iconmyfebronia:
MyFebronia Featured By Owner Aug 1, 2011  Professional Artisan Crafter
Be unique.
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:iconwebnatu:
webnatu Featured By Owner Aug 1, 2011  Professional General Artist
lol, if you have a teacher telling you that anime and manga is not art, just reply: If Duchamp put a freaking toilette in a gallery and call it art, then I declare this anime which I'm intentionally framing and placing on the wall ART.
There's many artist who are incredibly AMAzing that produce manga like artwork.
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:iconkittenpants:
Kittenpants Featured By Owner Aug 1, 2011  Professional General Artist
Well, anime is one of the hot-button issues for art teachers right now, because it's SO stylized *and* SO popular... and because there are so many students who refuse to branch out from that style in order to improve or diversify their work.

Here's the thing about teachers (highschool, university, and private tutors)... they all have their preferences, biases, and teaching agendas.

Non-visual-art example: I know an English teacher who despises fanfic as the worst kind of mindless derivative filth. I know another English teacher who writes it, adores it, collects it, and has a fanfic assignment she added to her curriculum to make writing fun and try to keep the kids engaged in the classroom. Is one way "right" and one "wrong"? They're just different. And a kid might get one teacher one year, and the other the next, and have to adjust.

I had an art professor who dismissed anything realistic as "merely illustration, not ART", and the less representational your work was, the better your grade. I had one that believed sharpie-on-tracing-paper was the purest expression of design, and anything with too much shading or color was "fussy and overdone". I had one that detested all cartooning and would even mark down realistic figure drawings *if you could see any contour lines*. And one who had a vendetta against blended shading and insisted on crosshatching, hatching, or stippling as the ONLY acceptable forms of shading. One wouldn't allow us to use erasers. One painting professor hated acrylic paint as a medium and refused to use it, not even to show us examples in the classroom (she was "teaching" an acrylics-only class, I wish I were kidding).

When applying to take a few classes at the local university just to get some live-model time after I moved to an area devoid of an art scene, the head of the art department refused to accept two-thirds of my art classes as transfer credits and busted a 300-level course down to a 100-level credit because he thought I was "too uppity and full of myself" because I was honest in telling him I wasn't pursuing a degree, and that I had my own website and studio, was working as a professional artist, and had been an art tutor for years. (He never looked at my portfolio, because he said "he didn't need to" to know what my place should be as a student, clearly implying that I "didn't know my place". It was like I'd gone back in time 100 years and was begging for acceptance at a private ivy-league school... not a state ag college where my application had already been happily accepted!) (Needless to say, my money will be going toward paying a model to come to my studio, rather than contribute to this jerk's salary.)

Anyway, that rant and horror story aside...

Different teachers have different hang-ups. And admissions reviews are INCREDIBLY squirrely. It MIGHT be that including a single anime-style piece in your 20-item portfolio is enough to drop your rank in the application pile. Or it might raise it. And there's no way to know the tastes of the portfolio reviewer before you get there. And it will drive you crazy unless you just do your best and give up on trying to control the results. And once you're in the classroom, all you can do is keep quiet until you learn your professor's preferences, and stick by their rules and learn how to play up the style they like best. Yes, it's sycophantic and stupid, but the benefit is that through the years of classes and working with many teachers, you'll be forced to learn and improve at several different styles that you might not otherwise have tried in order to cater to their biases. And in the long run, that really does push your growing edge in a lot of ways, and it does make you a better artist. (It can also leave you feeling dirty, cynical, and like a sell-out. Some argue that this is great preparation for the professional art scene...)

The way to minimize this sort of thing is to:
1. Develop a portfolio that emphasizes realism and general technical skill, which are lauded by every art school. Make sure you have at least one good still-life, one good portrait, one good full-body drawing, one good landscape, one good "showin' off perspective" piece. Make sure you have at least one good pencil piece, one good charcoal or ink piece, and at least three that show off your grasp of color theory. Make sure your portfolio is 2/3 traditional media at a minimum -- digital works are optional in a portfolio (some schools regard digital art with as much suspicion and derision as they do anime). Make sure your portfolio demonstrates you have a solid basic grasp of composition and chiaroscuro-to-define-form. Make sure your portfolio is at least 2/3 realistic, but that you have a few stylized pieces in there just to show you can, and it's better if the styles are obscure or unique, rather than mass-market or overdone. And after you've done all of this, expect your professors to treat you like you've never heard of these things before. See #3.
2. Apply to schools that advertise an appreciation for the styles of art you like best. A college that offers a "special studies in manga and anime design elements" class, as well as an animation curriculum, will probably be more accepting of an artist with some anime in their portfolio than say, an Art Renewal Center-approved atelier specialising in the old-world master technique.
3. Cultivate what the Buddhists call "beginner's mind". You can learn from any class, any professor, any situation, if you keep your mind open, stay curious, treat it all like just a challenging game, and don't take anything personally. It will also be better for your blood pressure, fragile dorm furnishings, and relationships. ;) (Obviously, I should have taken my own advice before going in to talk to the department head, huh?)
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:iconsydebiased:
SydeBiased Featured By Owner Aug 1, 2011  Student Digital Artist
Like someone mentioned before, anime is a rather broad catagory that people tend to mistake as a sole style. If you watch anime, you will be able to notice the difference in "style" between them. For instance, the art in the anime "Dragon Ball Z" (which I strongly dislike) is far different from the style the manga "Death Note" adopts (which I view as more visually appealing and anatomically correct).

I believe anime is strongly underestimated in the real world as people view it as "easy to master" and that "anyone can professionally draw it". It is one of the most difficult to master in my book, but like I said, the styles within anime vary, and some styles are simply easier to do than others. But using actual humans as reference and sort of adopting the anime style to create your own look is how I approach anime as far as art goes.

That being said, if you're planning to draw huge-eyed, horrifically underweight little girls you probably won't make it far. Professors want to see something incredible and eyecatching which is often directed towards viewing realistic styles. And let's face it, if you're planning on only drawing anime, you are not going to make it far. You have to be capable of more than that to make it through. Thus, all in all, I personally would not rely on anime to create a portfolio or impress my college professors.

But I think it comes down to what the professor's personal views are on anime. If they dislike it, I wouldn't stand against them for it, especially if your style is intensly cliche. And I can't think of too many jobs that require skill in anime art here in North America or anywhere other than Asia. Sure, some gaming companies specialize in it and there are some clips of anime-style in movies (take Kill Bill's O-ren scene for example, though I don't define that style as anime really).

So don't get too hung up on anime. Try some other things, otherwise developing your own style through anime will take some creativity and work.
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:iconvitong4:
ViTong4 Featured By Owner Aug 1, 2011
my friend does her unique comic style and she got into UCLA school of the arts [ultra competitive ~ 10 % acceptance or less ] and California college of the arts and got tons of merit scholarships that basically cut her tuitions down to about a tenth of their original cost. Her art was very unique in style and content though.

I've asked many art director or admissions people at colleges. they are accepting to manga art and anime .... just as long as you've adapted it to your own style beyond the generic big-eyed cutesy style.

If you have the generic style of cartoon art and generic compositions, themes, and pictures in general, your chances are pretty much nil. Hope that makes sense. I'm still in summer minimal-thinking mode.

If anime and manga is all you can do and you're applying to a field beyond illustration and animation, you will come across difficulties when it's time to do class assignments in other styles. Even in illustration and animation courses, knowledge of realistic anatomy and shading and such are usually necessary esp. when doing backgrounds and buildings.

I chuckle inside when people try to define things as "real art" because they often have their own ideas on what "real art " is.
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:iconsoulstarforger:
SoulStarforger Featured By Owner Aug 1, 2011
Manga isn't a style, it's a category of styles. It itself cannot be called "real art", since it's just a bunch of styles that hold some similar factors (to prove my point, the authors of Full Metal Alchemist and Shugo Chara draw nowhere like one another, with the exception of manga-like eyes.) However, the work produced by a mangaka is art, no matter what anybody says, whether they like it or not. The style of art doesn't matter, because art is simply what is created. Art level is an entirely different story, however. Mangakas can be professional and go to nice, fancy art colleges so long as they have the ability to draw/paint/etc. in a variety of styles, and have a good grasp on the basics of drawing, however. Colleges don't care about how the individuals prefer drawing. Teachers aren't prone to accepting mangakas because a lot of them are too stubborn to learn/do anything else. (A lot of the manga artists out there refuse to learn other styles/learn the basics of lighting, shading, etc./learn to draw realism. It's probably why teachers feel such contempt for manga artists.)
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:iconkaty-l-wood:
Katy-L-Wood Featured By Owner Jul 31, 2011  Student General Artist
They are real art. The only problem is when people think they're the ONLY type of art out there and that they don't need to branch out and learn other styles.
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:icondhinteractive111:
dhinteractive111 Featured By Owner Aug 2, 2011
The real drawing show us now

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:iconkaty-l-wood:
Katy-L-Wood Featured By Owner Aug 2, 2011  Student General Artist
...what's all that garbage down at the bottom there?
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:iconace626:
ace626 Featured By Owner Jul 31, 2011  Student
Anime and Manga are touchy subjects in the art world. Like many before me have said, it's not the best idea to show up for college with a portfolio full of cartoons. It really does depend on what your professors are like. I start school in three weeks and I'm going to be studying art, and my gallery here is pretty much nothing but anime/manga influenced artwork, but my portfolio had very little of it. The portfolio was mostly paintings and various other mediums/styles. I have met a drawing professor who actually teaches a class on Anime/Manga. It is a legitimate art form, but the problem seems to be that (just by looking here on DeviantArt) that sooo many people draw in this style. The best thing to do in this case is to find something that makes your work stand out.

When it comes to your portfolio and preparing for college, you definitely want to focus more on realism and other things, but that doesn't necessarily mean to ignore your 'roots'. Create a portfolio with tons of diversity, show them what you can do, and maybe throw in one Anime/Manga piece that you are particularly proud of or feel is some of your best work. If you are unsure about a piece, though, don't bother putting it into the portfolio.

Anime and Manga can be a great place to start, but it is true that you don't really want to walk around the art school saying you draw manga. It just doesn't get a lot of respect. It sucks, yea, but some people are like that. If you are willing to experiment with styles and techniques and learn, then you should be fine.
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:iconsachi-pon:
Sachi-pon Featured By Owner Jul 30, 2011  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
i think anime/manga is just as real art as any other type of art. some teachers do accept it and some don't. but all of them should! because excluding an entire type of art is close-minded!

the teacher who threw anime and manga in the trash... they should not be a teacher. that's just idiotic. if a teacher did that to me you bet i would argue with them, right then and there, in front of the whole class, I KID YOU NOT. i wouldn't accept that. it's not okay to pick out art you don't like and throw it away!! you're an art teacher. teach art, not destroy it! "classroom laws" banning specific types of art? ridiculous. i would definitely put up a fight if i had that teacher. (not a literal "fight" but i mean, with words!!)

"Anybody can draw japanimation proffessionally. Just pick up a pencil! Its not art! anybody can do it!"

sadly, there are a lot of people who think that. that's just ignorance. well, anyone can draw anime, the question is, can you draw it WELL. (that goes for any type of art though.) there are people who draw anime really well and i'm sure it wasn't easy for them! they worked hard for years. i've seen people's improvement charts of their art over the years. it's great to see!

lastly, i want to say this: the people who say that anime isn't as good or acceptable as other art probably have no idea how incredibly, deeply insulting it is to people who like to draw anime as their favorite type of art.
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:iconnarutokunobessed:
narutokunobessed Featured By Owner Jul 30, 2011  Student General Artist
Im kind of tired of the forums trying to define art. We need to leave the definition alone, especially if one is going to complain about art college. If your in art school, your expected to do their work and their work alone. Your not there for a leisure time. I don't care how wrong the teacher is. If you join the class, you paying the teacher to help you to work.

I condemn people equating popularity, and bad or goodness that defines art. Its just lunacy to do so. Teachers need to stop hatin on anime. I think all teacher should even watch this very informative panel on why anime has work involve just as any other medium. ANime is animation and it takes work. There are stylistic differences in animation. This whole series has really downright educated me even more about anime then ever:
[link]

Ive done studies about anime and manga and take soo many art classes including some knowledge of art history, we need to just stop. Ive join a group called baau, where theres various levels of people and most of them are hard on working on comics and most of them draw anime. They tell me that you should take every learning experience as a grain of salt. Hay even a deviant artist put a giant notice to everyone to give opinions of this abstracted art piece if it was art or not. Tell me, is hanging pieces of hair in a gallery art? Or is the telphones they put in museums art? Or are random assortment of chairs art? Ask yourself many questions and research many abstract art pieces and then come to your conclusion.

We just need to stop and we also should have a giant sticky about what is art or not, so people can stop worry about themselves and their esteem.
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:iconvisionoftheworld:
VISIONOFTHEWORLD Featured By Owner Jul 30, 2011
Tired of the whole "is it art" scenario. People need to grow up. It doesn't matter whether a couple people on a forum of website where mostly anime arts, that they think it is. It doesn't matter what these replies think.
Colleges do not want to see childish things like anime. They do not want to see cartoons, Japanese or otherwise. They want to see something extraordinary. "Defending" this anime hobby is just a waste of time, because it accomplishes nothing. I'm glad that professors are throwing it in the garbage. It does not belong in the professional art world.
I am considering applying to grad school myself, and am very serious. And I do not even draw animes, but I still consider my type of people to be unprofessional for the purpose of higher education and am developing a portfolio of much more conservative artwork and nothing in my deviantart account would be appropriate for this portfolio. That's right- college is serious business. Something isn't art because you "like" it. And because you want to name it "art" also doesn't mean it's acceptable in the real world. Pointing out exceptions to this rule that you found searching the internet wont help either- because it's unlikely you will find acceptance for this and do you really want to be in art school showing PhD professors ANIME????? In a portfolio? You would be humiliating yourself and insulting them. Bad idea. But I'm sure you'll do whatever you want...
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:iconsachi-pon:
Sachi-pon Featured By Owner Jul 31, 2011  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
"Colleges do not want to see childish things like anime."

WOW. really? anime is "childish?" anime is drawn, and looked at, by people of a variety of ages. to call it "childish" is incredibly insulting and ignorant. you say you don't draw anime. that makes sense. i can tell from that quote you don't know much about anime.


"They do not want to see cartoons, Japanese or otherwise."

actually, some art schools are open-minded and they DO like that stuff, if it's drawn well.


"They want to see something extraordinary."

you do realize that there are many people who think anime art can be extraordinary, right?


"I'm glad that professors are throwing it in the garbage. It does not belong in the professional art world."

i hope someone throws YOUR art in the garbage, since you're perfectly okay with that happening to other people. i bet if that happened to you, you wouldn't be so happy about it.

gosh i just can't stand elitist art snobs like you, you think you're so smart as to determine what "doesn't belong" in the professional art world. you, just like the professors mentioned in the origianl post of this thread, are part of the problem, as to why we anime loving artists struggle to gain acceptance. we work so hard, and people dismiss us as "childish" and that we "don't belong." i'm tired of being looked down upon just because i happen to like a style of art that isn't in fancy little "fine art" museums. how about you open your mind? you say that college is serious business, as if anime artists are not even serious. that makes no sense- we are serious. yet you don't think so. can you see why i'm angry?

may i repeat, you are part of the problem. if only less people were like you, then maybe anime-loving artists like me would stop being constantly looked down upon.
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:iconzeldat:
zeldat Featured By Owner Jul 31, 2011   Traditional Artist
SuperSachiko, you sound like way too defensive.

I linked to some pages which talk about what art colleges are looking for. It seems really obvious that they are not looking for anime. That's a fact.

I think maybe the reason they are not looking for anime is passing you by, so I'll explain it again. I'll mention some of the reasons given in the links I gave you.

If you include anime in your portfolio, you're telling art schools, “I don't care enough to develop my own style." That's what one of the links says. Don't like it? I'm sorry, but there's some truth in it. Anime is an established style, derived from Japan. It's not original. It's not something you came up with.

If I were to draw in the style of the Simpsons, or Bill Waterson, my work would be called derivative and people would wonder when am I going to get serious and develop a more unique style. I might do delightful work, I might indeed be quite talented, but if I refuse to branch out past that one style, then eventually people are going to wonder why and think less of me because I only want to do that style. Why should anime be treated any differently?

Another thing is, like it or not, being good at anime doesn't necessarily tell an art school how good a student is at realism, and if the school is teaching realism as a basis (and almost all are) then why should they take a chance at a student who seems so married to doing anime? Especially if the student seems kind of whiny and defiant about insisting that what they wanna do is anime, yadda yadda, anime doesn't get enough respect, complaining about how the "fancy little 'fine art' museums" are so closed-minded.

I don't think that the teacher has any right to throw anything in the trash, though, even if it's really crappy. But I think that shows us how fed up schools are with the sea of anime that they are inundated with. The links I found about preparing portfolios seemed to mention "Don't show anime" as almost the first thing on the list. This indicates that it's very common and it's something that the schools are very tired of.

I ought to know about a lot of this, by the way. I do fan art. I have a lot of artwork of celebrities. That's another thing that's a no-no for "fancy fine art museums" and also most colleges. I have faced that too. But in my case, I was lucky because my fan art was based in realism, so all I had to do was paint something else (not fan art) in the same realist style I'd been using for my fan art. I had to suck it up and do that and I'm still doing that. I realize the stigma against fan art and there are good places to show it (like dA) and places where I'll be looked at like a non-artist if I show it.

There's no use whining about it, it is what it is. That isn't to say you can't enjoy anime, but you need to suck it up and realize that there is a stigma, it's not going away, and a lot of it has some reasoning behind it. In the case of anime, it's partly that the schools are seeing a TON of it, and they're tired of it.

I'll also say that I see that there is a lot of talent displayed by anime artists, I'm not saying there isn't. I also see a high work ethic among many anime artists (some of you really work hard to improve) and that is most admirable. It's a fun hobby and you should all enjoy it, the way I enjoy my fan art. Anime and fan art are not wastes of time, because they help you develop art skills. So use the skill you've gained through drawing anime, and explore other styles, and show these other styles to art schools. Art schools have enough to deal with, just trying to get students educated on how to do realism (and other more marketable styles), they don't need to deal with this stuff.
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:iconspringtulips:
SpringTulips Featured By Owner Jul 30, 2011  Student General Artist
Well, the thing is that art schools want to see YOUR style, not a style made up by someone else. At least that's what I understand by reading portfolio guidelines. They want you to learn to develop your style and perfect it. It's no fun if all the artists in the world were manga artists. Also, you need to look at what program this is. Usually, Fine Arts is more about realism and such. Commercial art programs are more accepting of such styles because their aim is to make your art appealing to the buyer.
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:iconayk-office:
AyK-Office Featured By Owner Jul 30, 2011
Yes, it's art. A common misconception that art that is 'bad' is not art at all. Not true. Chevys are bad, crappily made and don't have brakes- but they're still cars.
Just because people don't like a picture, does not mean it is not art. It may be art of minimal merit, but it is still art nonetheless.

Many people admitted to my art college stem from or are completely submerged in Anime, Manga, and Anthro styles. Those styles are highly functional and not only good for art- but good for design, particularly in the concept art area.
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:icontursiart:
tursiart Featured By Owner Jul 30, 2011  Professional Traditional Artist
I think it depends also on what art school you are trying to get into, and what degree you are aiming for. I got a degree in animation, and I'd have to say that my professors didn't really have anything against anime/manga style art.
Having said that, the fundamentals were still vitally important. I still had to take all the classic lower devision art courses that any fine artist would take in college. My portfolio still had to show pages of life drawing, etc.. You need to be able to show you have these skills, and you need to be able to show you can do a lot more besides anime style art. Even my animation professors wouldn't be impressed by a portfolio filled with nothing but anime.

I believe another reason why you see so much negativity towards anime is because most of what the general public sees of it is geared towards younger audiences, and it seems most of the people drawing it are teens. It comes off as very childish and unprofessional to the average person.
I have to admit, later when I was teaching fine art... I got awfully sick of all the mediocre anime style stuff my students were producing outside of class and bringing in to show me. Now, I was always encouraging.... I would never discourage kids to *not* work on art totally on their own time outside of class assignments, but... augh... They just all want to ape Naruto instead of Rembrandt. :P
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:iconzeldat:
zeldat Featured By Owner Jul 30, 2011   Traditional Artist
I thought I'd do a Google search and see what others are saying about this: "How to assemble an art college portfolio: What not to include: [link] If you include anime in your portfolio, you're telling art schools, “I don't care enough to develop my own style.”

Portfolio Prep: "Less Anime, More Range" [link]

Is there anything I should not include? (in my portfolio)
One word – anime! The Japanese are doing a fine job producing all the anime the world needs to see. They don’t need help from you! [link]

I'll be adding more links if I find them.
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:iconikiska:
iKiska Featured By Owner Jul 30, 2011  Student General Artist
A trash bin just for anime/manga? That's amazing, when I start teaching that's the first thing I'll invest in :lol:

That being said, one of the most valuable things my art teacher ever told me was to learn the basics and fundamentals of art first (ie, realism, color theory, shape, form, etc etc etc), and once you master it, fuck with it however you want.
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:iconseraphimkiss88:
SeraphimKiss88 Featured By Owner Jul 30, 2011
I'm not into anime, but I'm a huge fan of animation and graphic novels. I view the medium as a whole as fine art, but the images by themselves I don't consider to be fine art. Does that make sense? Take an animation cell, or a page from a graphic novel/manga, and though it might be very good for what it is, it's probably not fine art. But the collective artwork + the story, etc, everything that goes into it, as a whole is fine art. I guess "greater than the sum of its parts" is what I'm trying to say.

It might not sound so harsh to say that "anime isn't real art" if you look at it that way. It's just that the images by themselves aren't.
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:iconskarlet-raven:
Skarlet-Raven Featured By Owner Jul 29, 2011   General Artist
From what I've seen and experienced, drawing animu at art school will get you laughed straight out of class, even if it's pointless doodles on some notes in Art History. True story. And putting it in a portfolio (unless you're going for Illustration/Animation/Cartooning) is like shooting yourself in the foot.
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:icontechnosara:
TechnoSara Featured By Owner Jul 30, 2011  Student General Artist
yeaah, i dont plan to do that. XD
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:iconroberts-the-vile:
Roberts-The-Vile Featured By Owner Jul 29, 2011
I love some anime and manga, but I would not be caught dead drawing it. Ever.

It is something best left to the professionals, and that would be the Japanese born mangekas and animators.

I normally dislike art teachers of any kind, but that anime/manga trash can sounded hilarious. I think it is a bad habit to form so early on with young people that it has kind of become restrictive to potential, original artists. However, I don't see anything wrong with doing it for fun *once in a while.*
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:iconxaos-wolf:
Xaos-Wolf Featured By Owner Jul 29, 2011  Hobbyist Digital Artist
My little sister is quite a talented Manga style artist, but she keeps getting low-ish marks in her Art class.
She's coming into her final year before the last major exams before college, and shes bumping into the same type of "You have to do REAL art" type of lessons.

I kinda agree with this sort of thing when it's your standard education, but if they still being THAT strict when it gets to Higher education, it seems a bit detrimental to Art as a whole. I mean, why would you train and Artist to create in an identical style to everyone else?

If you've managed to incorporate a style, as opposed to duplicating it, then it's just as much "Art" as the next guy's is.

On the other hand, you still need to be mindful that there are negative stereotypes regarding the art styles you've mentioned. And unfortunately both are pervy to say the least.
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:iconqueen-of-spiders:
Queen-of-Spiders Featured By Owner Jul 29, 2011
I saw this happen in my art classes often, even with talented anime artists. The problem is that unless the class is geared towards illustration/commercial art, where it's common and accepted to see stylized art, then teachers want to see their students demonstrate that they are able to draw what they see, exactly as they see it.

In high school especially, most art classes are beginner-type courses where the focus is learning how to see and translating what you see onto paper. It's unfortunate to see talented anime artists get low marks, but in these types of classes, they are not following instructions if they are drawing stylized images. For instance, if the assignment is to draw a live model, everyone will be looking at the same model and is expected to draw just what they see, not their personal interpretation of what they see. The idea isn't to make all artists identical, but to build a strong foundation for each student's future work.

I had some friends that drew anime that were discouraged by this, and if your sister feels the same, just let her know that the goal is to help her in the long run, not drain her creativity. :)
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:iconxaos-wolf:
Xaos-Wolf Featured By Owner Jul 29, 2011  Hobbyist Digital Artist
We had the entire family saying that. That School sucks in how strict it is, but it's teaching you the SUBJECT, not specifics. (At that point in education at least)

So we said she needed to buckle down and do the "boring" work to get to where SHE wants to be.

And she seems to have taken that advice. =)
I'm personally trying to get her to create some proper OC's though and make her style more unique in some way. =P

Then I can collaborate with her... >=D
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:iconkamryn:
Kamryn Featured By Owner Jul 29, 2011  Hobbyist General Artist
A lot of art school are more concerned that you know the basics than a style. So while you can put anime and manga in your portfolio, art that show that you get form, color, balance, composition, unity, parspective and a whole bunch of other crap will weigh heavier and get you into the program/past the eraly art classes.

That said, a lot of manga artists have fantastic backgrounds/props. You could focus on those for art school. Or apply somewhere that doesn't need a portfolio.
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:iconfionacreates:
FionaCreates Featured By Owner Jul 29, 2011  Professional General Artist
Ah see, the main issue with manga art is that it's not your style, it's someone elses style that you have chosen to draw in.

I've just finished a degree, and my tutors treated all 'generic cartoon' style the same, whether that be marvel style, disney style, manga style, or whatever.

When you draw from life, ie realism, you draw either photoreal or a personal styalised interpritation of what you see in front of you. The tutors, and by extension art directors, want to see how YOU see the world, not how you see the way the japanese draw the world.

When you draw manga, you draw in a style someone else has predicated to you. They have said "the eyes look like this, the face shape is this" as such instead of drawing your OWN interpretation from the real human being, you're drawing your interpretation of someone elses interpretation of life. It's quite a weak way of working, and the point of art school is to challenge you and to make you do things you wouldn't normally do, challenging you to step outside the box and try new things in order to improve what you already do well.

The other thing, esp concerning illustration, is that manga comes with a stereotype, a connotation that normal people read into it. For example I know if my sister saw a manga picture advertising new make up, she wouldn't look twice at it , and that a large portion of the population feel the same (thereby selling no make up thereby making the company no money, and they know this so they wouldn't pay you in the first place), they see the manga first and it turns them off whatever product or such you're selling or illustrating. So while YOU apreciate it, the paying public won't ergo you'll make no money. Art directors would rather pay for something original than a style they could go straight to japan and get more authentic. Harsh reality, this is not japan, the majority of the population doesn't give a shit, so for most commercial art, manga just doesn't sell.

That is not to say stop drawing it, and that's also not to say that those art teachers were right, because binning anyones art is cruel and wrong, but it is saying that there's more to art than manga, and the point of going to art school is to learn to draw new things, not just continue along like normal, you might as well never go.
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:iconzeldat:
zeldat Featured By Owner Jul 29, 2011   Traditional Artist
Yes, you bring up a lot of good points. That is why it is constantly being emphasized here that you should learn realism first, because manga and all other forms of cartooning are based on reality. So in a way, reality is the "mother ship" and eventually you all have to return to it.

I've also questioned the marketability of manga/anime on the general public. I am sure there are areas where it is popular, but I'm trying to think—is Bill Gates or some big CEO going to hire someone to do a big oil portrait of themselves in the manga style? How many art galleries in your town specialize in manga art? I'm not saying that no galleries sell manga, but how many do? The majority or the minority?

It doesn't mean you shouldn't do manga if that's what you enjoy. Art should give you joy, and if manga is something that is fun for you, you should do it! I do fan art because that's what I enjoy, but I realize there are limitations. No gallery is going to take my fan art, and I realize that a portfolio full of fan art makes me look like a fangirl and not a "serious" artist. (BUT I AM A FANGIRL!!! :lol: ) So I have a separate portfolio which is fan-art free.

It's just the reality. The world we live in here (where manga and fan art are popular) is not all there is to the art world.
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:iconfionacreates:
FionaCreates Featured By Owner Jul 30, 2011  Professional General Artist
Indeed. Manga was created to do sequential art, comic books. (Or animated things) and isn't as often used for still images. There are a lot of people willing to buy a manga book to read but don't want to see it illustrating a news article about broken homes.

There are some manga artists who are superb mostly because what they do doesn't make me go "ugh seen that before" such as Hellobaby. There was a guy who graduated last year who's work is described as 'manga style' and it's actually realism but due to colouring techniques the industry describes it as manga style, they can't let it go. [link] <-- that's him if you want to be wowed by some illustration.
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:iconzeldat:
zeldat Featured By Owner Jul 29, 2011   Traditional Artist
"Anime is a wonderful art form but it shouldn't be your crutch, drawing realistically is also important."

:thumbsup: Yes, this. You have to be able to draw realistically. You hear it here all the time, for all sorts of reasons. If you are married to just your "style" and are resistant to other types of drawing (like realistic) then you're going to be tons of fun to teach. :lol: Part of most foundation programs are the fundamentals of drawing from life, figure drawing, etc. You've got to be able to suck it up and do well in those classes.

I'll be honest here and admit that I have zero, zip, nada interest in anime. I'm very grateful that it all has passed me by. NO INTEREST. :lol: But you should be able to pursue whatever type of art you want. Enjoy making your art. Otherwise, what is the point?

When I was starting to get serious about art, my thing was fan art. (Well, it still is! :D ) In my case, I did a lot of portraits of celebrities. I used to get all sorts of crap about it from my family, but that got quieted down when I started to earn money from commissions. :lol: Funny how that works.

I guess my point is, no matter what type of art you do, someone is going to give you crap about it. I sometimes detect an attitude here on dA that traditional/realistic art is "boring." Some of you seem to think that it's dead in the water and nobody cares anymore. Well obviously I disagree, and think that those of you who believe that have an extremely myopic view of the art world. But I am getting off-topic. The point is (again) that you're going to encounter closed-mindedness no matter WHAT you do.
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:icondamaimikaz:
DamaiMikaz Featured By Owner Jul 29, 2011  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I think you just got the whole point here. People always have opinions on other peoples art, no matter what style they're drawing in. Most of the time it's just a matter of personal preferences.

The thing with DeviantArt is that there always seems to be some kind of anime-style vs realism. Anime-people don't like realism because they think it's boring and the realistic painters don't like anime-style because they think it's too simple. The funny thing is that both of them are actually more alike than you'd think at first sight.

People should be more openminded towards what they see and learn to appreciate the good things in a drawing, without immediately judging it on 'style'.
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:iconzeldat:
zeldat Featured By Owner Jul 29, 2011   Traditional Artist
"Anime-people don't like realism because they think it's boring and the realistic painters don't like anime-style because they think it's too simple."

You bring up some interesting stuff here, and now you're getting me started on a long-winded ramble! It's all your fault! :lol:

I see the artistry and skill in anime and other cartoons, but I still don't like the big eyes and the small mouths of anime in particular. I've never liked it. Other types of cartoons I completely love, but I can't feel the love for anime. But that is just my thing.

I see different types of anime on dA—the newbie type (which shows a lack of drawing skill) and the more sophisticated type, where there is clearly a lot of skill developed by the artist. So it's not that I think anime is too simple (not all the time), it's just that I can't warm to it. However I admire how strong some of you guys are in developing skill, freehand drawing, anatomy, and so forth. Many of you are very hard-working and dedicated, are "purists" in a way, and I definitely admire that.

As for realism, I do think that some of those who think that realism is "boring" don't comprehend the work that goes into it. It's more exacting, less forgiving of irregularities, and try doing a portrait of someone which really looks like them—not just good enough so people can tell who it's supposed to be—but really looks like them and captures their spirit. It's not easy. A lot of people think they understand how this works, but they don't. I certainly struggle with it, and I've been doing portraits for a loooong time.

Anyway, we should have a bit of respect for each other. It's very short-sighted to say that anime, for example, is all "crap" or "not art." I may not like it that much, but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate the skill and talent that goes into it. As for realism, some of you who think it's dying or dull and nobody cares about it anymore—you're soooo wrong about that. :lol: If you look past dA and into the rest of the world, you'll see that realism is alive and well and those of us who are comfortable working in realism are not worrying at all about its longevity or marketability! :lol:
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:icondamaimikaz:
DamaiMikaz Featured By Owner Jul 30, 2011  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Oh noes... it's all my fault! :ohnoes:

It's kinda funny how you see it. I've been thinking in the same way, but I've been looking to it from the other side. I've always liked anime style for it's fantasy elements and its vivid colors. Something that realism lacked in my opinion, because... well... it has to be realistic. Especially when taught art in highschool, where the focus was mainly on the old masters, I used to think realism was kinda boring. Although I did admit there was a great set of skills needed, since I wasn't able to produce anything like that myself :P
Nowadays there are lot of realistic styles that have a great amount of fantasy involved and use the vivid colors that I like(that gaming- and fantasy-art). The line between realism, anime and fantasy kinda blurred.

As an anime-drawing-person (if I may call it like that) I've always thought it was pretty rediculous how people thought anime was crap. What you say about catching a facial expression, counts for every single style. Especially working on comics or larger projects, it's important that you learn how to catch facial expressions and body language in drawing, so it brings your characters alive, but makes your character stay consistent at the same time. The many dull, expressionless anime-characters you see, make it clear that this does involve a certain skill.

And I think it's actually quite funny that I used a lot of books on realistic painting as a reference for anatomy and lighting :D

Oh... and you got me started as well. Your fault. Lol :D
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:iconzeldat:
zeldat Featured By Owner Jul 30, 2011   Traditional Artist
"it's important that you learn how to catch facial expressions and body language in drawing, so it brings your characters alive, but makes your character stay consistent at the same time"

Yes, I agree! That does require a lot of skill. It's going to require skill whether it be anime or realism. It's tough to do! That's part of what I was saying before. I still am not enamored with the anime look, but there's no question that a lot of the artists are super talented.

There is one thing though, that I don't think that those only proficient in anime can fully experience. And maybe I'm wrong here, so correct me if I am. I'm talking about getting a "likeness" of someone, a real person, so it looks not just "recognizable" as them, but really looks like them. It's not enough to have a photo and copy it. That photo may lose something in the translation. Or if you don't have a good "feel" for how the model really looks, you could miss capturing that special something that is them.

Because anime deals with a cartoon-type style, it isn't aiming for a real likeness (realism). It has other challenges, like you mention, but it's drawing upon a different area of artistic understanding.

I like to draw people from imagination sometimes, and I actually find them much easier, because even though it has taken a bit of practice and some understanding of anatomy to draw them convincingly, I don't have to worry about that elusive likeness that sometimes is so hard to get. It can be close but not quite there.
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:icondamaimikaz:
DamaiMikaz Featured By Owner Jul 30, 2011  Hobbyist Digital Artist
True. It's a given fact that we draw most things from imagination. But that applies for basically every artist who doesn't draw realism from real life directly (so same goes for all those fantasy- and game-artists, who draw mainly from imagination).

Neverthless it can be quite challenging to bring something alive, just from your imagination, since you have no real references.

I think that it depends on the type of person you are. I've met artists that find it easier to draw something from reference and just 'make it look alike'. They mostly struggle with the imagination part. But I've seen the other way around (like you) that find it easier to draw something from imagination.
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:iconzeldat:
zeldat Featured By Owner Jul 30, 2011   Traditional Artist
"I think that it depends on the type of person you are. I've met artists that find it easier to draw something from reference and just 'make it look alike'. They mostly struggle with the imagination part. But I've seen the other way around (like you) that find it easier to draw something from imagination."

I understand what you're saying and believe me, I don't disagree.

I like drawing people from my imagination, but that's because I've had a lot of practice. But I fully agree that drawing from your imagination and making it look convincing is really hard. I know tons of artists who are great at copying but their imaginary artwork takes a serious quality hit. Mine does too, I'll be honest, but it's not as bad as it could be. (The only sketch from my imagination I have up right now is this one, just so you know where I'm coming from. [link] ) I'll say right now though, that my figures from my imagination are "okay" but not all that super fabulous. I see many, many, MANY anime artists who are far better at doing a reasonably proportional and convincing figure from their imagination than I am. So trust me, I know it's not easy! :lol:

But at the same time, I guess because I've always practiced making up people, I consider them easier and that is because, as long as you understand the anatomy and lighting somewhat so the person looks human, you're good to go. But with getting a good likeness in a realism portrait, it's a bigger challenge. There are a lot of times I see a portrait and I think that it looks "recognizable" but not quite them, and I can't really express it any better than that. Suffice it to say that it's tough and is a lot more complicated than just "copying" something.
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:iconopal-fire:
opal-fire Featured By Owner Jul 29, 2011  Student Traditional Artist
I say if you like drawing anime then don't let anyone stop you. However, anime and such is more of a fun hobby than a professional career option. I suppose that there are venues which accept such styles, but in general, anime is not in much demand in the art world (at least to my understanding). You can find that type of art in comic books and on television, but it's not something that you would really sell in a stand-alone manner. If someone wants to buy art, they usually are more interested in realistic or abstract pieces than something like anime. I think that anime is something that mainly appeals to teenagers, so it doesn't have much place in the adult art world.
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:iconschlissel-art:
Schlissel-art Featured By Owner Jul 29, 2011
I agree that anime is a form of art however a lot of art schools look down on it. I love anime and got into the illustration program at my art school however I wouldn't put any anime-esque art into my portfolio. Older and traditional teachers are certainly less kind to our art. I even had a teacher who worked for disney that said anime was crap! D< however there are many young teachers that grew up influenced by american comics and are tolerant. I would say half the students I know also love anime but have studied the basics of art (color, composition, anatomy, proportions etc...) and are able to create their own style. Most people who think of art think about the great masters but if you look at modern illustration it's very open to style as long as you have the basics. Anime is a wonderful art form but it shouldn't be your crutch, drawing realistically is also important.
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:iconxenaferetek:
xenaferetek Featured By Owner Jul 29, 2011
my mom forces me into drawing what she think is acecptable
in society. she thinks that drawing manga and anime is horrid
and for a long time i did what she told me to do. i drew still life
and used a lot of traditional media. So one day i said F this.

So what? Art without freedom is nothing, and i don't want to
waste my time drawing for another person that tries to take
away that freedom from me. I agree with Kwhipey she/he has
great advice about which course you may switch to and i hope
everything works out for you :)
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:iconkwhipkey:
KWhipkey Featured By Owner Jul 29, 2011  Professional Writer
I'll weigh in on this one, as I had a similar experience to what you're describing. The short answer is, make sure when you choose an art program that it's the right kind. There is a very definitive line between what is considered Fine Art, and what is considered Commercial Art. I happen to do animation, and I ran into a lot of judgemental teachers while I was taking Fine Art classes. I would start out as the teachers pet, earning A's and being praised constantly. And then the fated question would drap, "So what are your plans for art?" And when I answered I wanted to be an Animator, they would look at me in horror, like I had said something taboo and disgusting, and suddenly I was no good anymore. My grades actually dropped, I started getting ridiculed in front of the class during critiques and my overall spirit ended up being very nearly broken. I almost gave up on art because of a few bad teachers!! So unfortunately, it does happen way too often. Fine Arts professors can sometimes have a very elitist mentality and anything they view as selling art--ie, commercial art like Animation, Graphic Design, Anime and Manga--is evil and a corruption of their beloved field. Now not all Fine Artists are like that, but unfortunately, a lot of the Fine Art Teachers are.

There are programs out there that are a lot more accepting of the different types of art. Just make sure you do your research when you're looking at colleges, and if you want to do anime and manga, make sure you pick programs that like that. I ended up in Game Art and Design, and it was a completely different experience. Everyone there was supportive and loved the animated look I had to my art. There was no judgement or ridicule for wanting to make money through art. Moral of my lesson is, don't go into a Fine Arts, Studio Art degree if you want to do Commercial Art for a living. You get basically the same foundational classes, without the snooty attitudes via a program tailored to Animation, Graphic Design or any of the other more commercialized fields. And if you do want to pursue a Fine Arts degree, don't say the forbidden "animation" word, and tailor your portfolio with more traditional things like figure drawing, gesture drawing, still lifes and paintings.

I, personally, believe that all forms of art can be amazing in their own ways. It's just a shame that there is such a divide between the artist community. It seems to be getting smaller, but you will probably still run into it with old school teachers at college. It's sad and unfortunate, but true. Good luck though in your college search! :)
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:iconyumedeli:
YumeDeli Featured By Owner Jul 29, 2011  Student
well if things like the fountain of duchamp are seen as art then something that is inspired or influenced by manga and anime defiantly can be. The popart movement of japan was influenced by it greatly for example. If you meet someone antagonistic like that I'd say speak out about it. They are supposed to teach not to ridicule.
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:icontechnosara:
TechnoSara Featured By Owner Jul 29, 2011  Student General Artist
And ive been seeing alot more "anime" type ads and products in many malls and brands. maybe people are being more accepting to it? And my aunt payed me to make a anime-style logo for their cleaning company.
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:iconyumedeli:
YumeDeli Featured By Owner Jul 30, 2011  Student
Yes I'm also going to a evening school for art next year and I was terrified of having a teacher that would hate the style. Now when I took a train I saw a big comic in typical beginner book manga style about trains as advertisement on the station. Turns out the children section of that academy had made it. It made me smile.
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:icontechnosara:
TechnoSara Featured By Owner Jul 30, 2011  Student General Artist
how cute! thats very cool! :D
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:iconmyname1z4xs:
myname1z4xs Featured By Owner Jul 29, 2011  Hobbyist Artist
Why do you worrying about the college's opinion on your subject? School is utilitarian, they should not allowed to embrace "style" or "imagination" their job is to teach you the set in stone fact, how things works this or that way, your style is your business. You can do whatever you like out of the school, so why bother? But your teacher's action of trashing someone's work is against law, her power only applies to grading assignments, she is not allowed to have control over your personal live. The fact that so many grown adult behave so immature angers me, she is playing with her power to make an political argument, to tell you "grown up" so she can act like a children. This is a problem in all artist profession, they see themselves as some kind godly being that is above the mortals, they do whatever they like, both student and teacher act like the same stinking big ego bullshit. Your teacher sound like she don't know what she is saying, she made the same mistake that made by the otaku and weeboos, that they thinks stylized drawing is easy, the reason why in a professional method of learning you must study realism before stylization is because stylization requires the firm understanding of the reality, only armature thinks the simple result came easy. Not only that your teacher lack the knowledge on the legal issues, but also she dose get her own career right. Its no wonder that art and humanity is in decline while engineering and science thrives, they are so full of themselves believe they are above the rest of the world where in fact they are just bunch of hip weeboo drag addicts and bigots.
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:icontechnosara:
TechnoSara Featured By Owner Jul 29, 2011  Student General Artist
very interesting. i like how you speak your mind. very brave. :D
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