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January 5, 2013
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Crit on an angsty WIP drawing of two people, please?

:iconshillermetimbers:
shillermetimbers Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013
Obviously nowhere near finished, but I'm working on a drawing in SAI and after staring at it for about six hours straight, I felt it might be a good idea to get some outside opinions. I've linearted the hair, but can anybody sees any great glaring flaws in the body structure, etc? I just want to make sure it's all accurate and possible before linearting the rest.

Go to town on the crit! I want it to look as good as it possibly can. That being said, I'm not begging for praise but if anyone can see anything that they quite like about it, tell me so I know what to keep up :)

[link]

Sorry for the low opacity, it's like 40% haha.
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Devious Comments

:iconshillermetimbers:
shillermetimbers Featured By Owner Jan 27, 2013
[link]

Update time, c'mon grab your friends~
Looking back at the original it's improved a lot thanks to all of your comments, so many thanks! <3
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:iconkuiji:
Kuiji Featured By Owner Feb 16, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
I think it's awesome! Though both their head are a little too big for me, even if they are children. ^^'
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:iconclaytonsnow:
ClaytonSnow Featured By Owner Feb 1, 2013  Student Digital Artist
Looking really promising. I love the hair, her new body is great, not totally sold on her face, but I think you have a lot of time to make it better, plus its not even done yet. How old is she supposed to be? Because I am seeing an older lady, and I think it's because of the hairstyle and her jaw/mouth. Her nose is also really unique, which can be good and bad. Great emotion though, I can get the mood and it makes me wonder what's making him upset, which is amazing for a WIP. Keep up the good work!!
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:iconshillermetimbers:
shillermetimbers Featured By Owner Feb 15, 2013
Oh wow, thank you so much! I'm glad you noticed the nose, I wanted to give a bit of variety to their appearance :) Her hair's done up because they're at a funeral (which is why he's so upset- one of his best friends died)and they're both supposed to look around 18. What improvements could you give for her face? I wanted to show that she's trying to stay strong for him but she's on the verge of breaking in the same way that he is.
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:iconclaytonsnow:
ClaytonSnow Featured By Owner Feb 16, 2013  Student Digital Artist
Uhm, the mouth has some lines coming down, and while they do convey emotion they also register as wrinkles. It's looking good, keep pushing yourself, try to replicate the detail in the hair in the entire drawing. :D
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:iconshillermetimbers:
shillermetimbers Featured By Owner Feb 16, 2013
Aww thanks, yeah I'm definitely gonna add more detail once I've got the body shapes sorted :) Aah I get you, I'll try to make it look more like she's biting her lip and trying to hold back.
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:iconwindhydra:
WindHydra Featured By Owner Jan 31, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
It certainly looks better!
I think the end of her dress looks weird, better find a reference.

Redline [link]
Moved her shoulder forward since she's reaching out, and lowered the left shoe of the guy.
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:iconshillermetimbers:
shillermetimbers Featured By Owner Feb 16, 2013
Oh wow, thank you so much for taking the time to do that! It really helped with the posture of her back. I've been super busy lately which is why it's taken me so long to reply, but I'll get around to following that asap- although, the redline puts them a little further apart than I'd like them to be. His knees are meant to be between hers and the dress is wrapping around them both :) The shoulder and shoe are two things that I hadn't considered, so thanks for correcting that!
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:iconthebestwes:
thebestwes Featured By Owner Jan 20, 2013  Student General Artist
I did this redline before I noticed that you had done a revision. In red I went over the movable masses and gesture. You did a decent job on this for the most part, although you can see I've corrected the heads a bit to be more fluid, although this is more of an aesthetic correction than an anatomical one. I also increased the size of the feet, which are far too small. My foot is the size of my forearm from wrist to elbow, not my hand. I understand exaggeration for stylistic effect, but you seem to be emphasizing the youthfulness of the figures, which would mean you should do their feet bigger, not smaller. In blue, I outlined the hair as a single mass. I think you're getting a bit bogged down in individual locks of hair and losing sight of the bigger picture. The hair looks almost like a wig, as if it's sitting on top of the head but not actually growing out of it. Try it again keeping in mind constantly the entire mass and its directionality as it leaves the head. Hair tends to grow and fall in big chunks, not many chaotic frizzes, so focus on the chunks before the frizzes. Figure out how they flow out of the scalp and where they fall. You have the same problem with a few fabric wrinkles, which I have outlined in purple. Think about what is causing these folds and why they are there. Folds are caused either by fabric draping over itself due to gravity, or a point stretching part of the fabric. Think about the origin of each of these folds and move or erase them accordingly. Finally, swatches are for posers. Color is relative. The only time swatches are even useful is for low budget cartoons or on a scene-by-scene basis of an animated feature to keep the color consistent. That's it. Even then, don't display your swatches. What's the point?

Anyway, good job for the most part, and I hope this was helpful.
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:iconshillermetimbers:
shillermetimbers Featured By Owner Jan 27, 2013
Redone-[link]

Thanks for your comments! The swatches are only there so that I can keep track of what shade to lineart in, they're not gonna be use in the actual colouring :P Even so, I'd adjust the colour of the lineart to correspond with the lighting. They're there for the time being almost like notes, just as a reminder but they won't be visible for the final thing.
The hair comments were really useful, I definitely saw what you meant with the boy's at least so I've redone it to make it look like the hair is growing in a certain direction. I've also given the fabric more of a texture, for example the boy's shirt has angled creases to show that it's a stiffer material, whereas the girl's dress flows for a softer look. Hope I did a good job of it!

You were very helpful, thank you :J
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:iconbeanycoffee:
BeanyCoffee Featured By Owner Jan 13, 2013  Professional Digital Artist
I took a look at your most updated version in the comments (I think) and if you're going for a more cartoony style, I think the proportions are working nicely. I don't know their ages, they still look pretty young, but that could change depending on how you do the finished lineart. The only critiques I have is that the boy's hand that's grabbing his arm looks pretty awkward. I think given that angle, you would really only see the fingers and not the top of the hand. I could be wrong, but that's my view on it. Also, the way the boy is sitting on his feet looks a little strange. I know what you're going for with it, but it might help to make him sit more like this: [link] (It's a weird picture I know but that's Google for you, haha). Having his feet hold him up like how you have misses out a little on the whole emotion of distress you have going on. I think the more "collapsed" look of his feet would help it more. I really do think you've conveyed the facial emotions very well and I am very fond of how drew the hair! It has lovely texture~

Hope that helps!
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:iconshillermetimbers:
shillermetimbers Featured By Owner Jan 20, 2013
First off, thanks for taking the time to write all that out! That reference was insanely helpful, I've been looking for something like that for ages <3

[link]

Here's the redone version (fingers on the back of his neck look a little bizzare I know haha, I'm gonna shape them up when I do the lineart), what do you think? Glad you like the proportions and hair :) About the hand, I see what you mean, but it's based on a reference that I used and I think it's partially how he's kind of tightly hugging his arm to himself, like trying to protect himself if you get me? :)

Thanks again for your suggestions and feel free to say more on the newer drawing :J
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:iconceruulean:
Ceruulean Featured By Owner Jan 9, 2013   General Artist
It's obvious that there is tension and distress, and the expressions and the boys hunching looks great. However, it does not look as intimate as intended. I see some awkwardness based on something like the girls hand positioning. Her left hand is bent at an uncomfortable angle, and it looks like its just placed there. If she is caressing his arm, I would suggest making her hand stretch farther back. This would give a supportive gesture to a distraught friend. As for her right hand, I think that if it was placed at the base of the neck, it would send a stronger "lean on my shoulder" message.

I have to say that it's not really the head size but proportions. The head looks a little big to me because the neck is not long enough. The body is usually made longer in some way (like the legs) to compensate for a larger, cartoony head. If not, the characters end up looking like children.

I am also confused by the two lines on the girls lips. To me, they look like grandma lips which is not befitting of an otherwise young appearance.

Other than a few anatomy and proportion issues, I really love the hair and the style they are drawn in!
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:iconshillermetimbers:
shillermetimbers Featured By Owner Jan 13, 2013
Ooh thank you for the really detailed crit! :) Just one thing, I'm not fully sure if you're referring to the original drawing or the amended one here: [link]

I do still see awkwardness and stiffness in her arms though, so I'll work on that. Thanks for the suggestions on what to do with them, do the legs still need lengthening?

The lips are there because she's biting her bottom lip, I'll make that a little clearer :) Thanks so much for your help and support!
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:iconceruulean:
Ceruulean Featured By Owner Jan 13, 2013   General Artist
Alright I just wrote a really long crit when my browser refreshed so I will have to condense this:

Actually, the boy's shin seems a little long because the foot goes past the butt. The girl is more accurate in this case. At least, if you like it the way it is, have the girls shin be as proportionally long.

Now upon closer inspection, the dress has a crease which follows her leg. Her leg is longer than what my first impression saw. I think the issue is the way the dress falls. It flows out from her waist oh-so-slightly, and it looks like there is mass under it, presumably her body. It appears that her pelvis is closer to the front and so is the joint between the hips and legs, when it really is not. There are a few conflicting signals here which reduce the believability of the stylized anatomy. Compared to the boy, who wears pants and thus has a clear distinction of his form.

About the lips, I did think you were looking for a bitten look. I suggest filling out the chin groove, and not bothering with creases at all. The biting of the lower lip makes the skin tighter, while creases are formed from looseness.

I also begin to see how the previous poster said your image looked flat. It's the girls shoulder, it does not have any lines to suggest the presence of the muscles that connect it to the body. There does not need to be a lot of detail. Something like making the sleeve hole larger and rounder would accommodate the shoulders mass without adding anything to the shoulder itself.

I think that this piece has a lot of potential and it is very good in its portrayal of these characters already. There just need some fleshing out and refining the body language a bit more, like having the girl lean more as you've decided.
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:iconshillermetimbers:
shillermetimbers Featured By Owner Jan 20, 2013
Thanks so much for everything you've said, it's helped a lot :J Here's the newest version (I know the fingers on the back of his neck look a little odd haha, I'm gonna refine them later): [link]

The bitten lip advice was especially useful and I definitely see what you mean. I took into account everything you said, what do you think now? :) Feel free to make more suggestions!
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:iconceruulean:
Ceruulean Featured By Owner Jan 20, 2013   General Artist
The arm looks a lot better, seeing as how you illustrated those muscles! It has definitely helped in shaping the arm. Now I don't want to sound nitpicky, but she looks really buff because the lines are hard. Since the basic shape is there, you don't need those lines unless you want to emphasize the size of her muscles. Plus, you can always show muscle definition with shading. Now the other arm looks like it didn't get as much love, so that might be a place to start working on.

I notice that you made the dress puffier, but only some parts. I don't see it from below her waistband. The dress looks even more stretched out from the last revision, but I don't see what is stretching the dress out. My first assumption would be the knees, except the dress does not reach that length.

This girl has a loose, puffy dress: [link]
Her dress kinda flops onto the legs where there is no body underneath.

This woman's dress is on the tighter side: [link]
Even so, the dress slightly folds onto her legs

Also, dresses can crease and flow differently depending on the material. AS long as you are consistent, it should be fine.
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:iconshillermetimbers:
shillermetimbers Featured By Owner Jan 27, 2013
[link]
Update tiem

Haha I agree she looks massively hench right now, those lines are only there for guidance during colouring, for where to highlight and shade etc- I wouldn't illustrate or outline them. I gave the other arm some detail, like you suggested :)

I made the dress look flowier and out of a softer material, rather than the stiff and firm linen- like look of before. What do you think now? I tried to make the dress look less stretched out, although it might be slightly stretched around the knee area because it wraps around her thigh.
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:iconceruulean:
Ceruulean Featured By Owner Jan 30, 2013   General Artist
The dress is nicely done! This is a big improvement over your original sketch. Now time to work on her legs and feet. The calf could be flatter, since it is getting squished by the thigh.
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:iconshillermetimbers:
shillermetimbers Featured By Owner Feb 16, 2013
Sorry it's taken me so long to reply, I've been so busy with commissions! That's a good point, I'll get around to doing that as soon as :J
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:iconshillermetimbers:
shillermetimbers Featured By Owner Jan 6, 2013
Okay, redone version here: [link]

Made the bodies bigger, paid more attention to real life references, changed her ear and foot, accentuated the finger bones, edited the legs so that they made more sense in how they sat together, and added mascara tears just because. Any better? :J Suggestions welcome.
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:iconshillermetimbers:
shillermetimbers Featured By Owner Jan 6, 2013
[link]

Wrong link, this one instead! Sorry 'bout that
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:iconself-epidemic:
Self-Epidemic Featured By Owner Jan 6, 2013  Professional Digital Artist
Its still wrong. Look at sides of faces, go get references,the heads go far too high and its also very, flat. Give it some 3D ness to it.

There is a proportion rule of bodies, female broken into 3rds, top half of the leg, the bottom half, then the body. Meaning the thighs are too short.

You have ignored the rules of 3D shapes, you haven't built it in 3D forms, the body has a front, side and back, its not really got that, the boobs make, no sense too. They just don't work like that.

Honestly, its just weak. If you want to genuinely improve, go get your friends to pose like that, take a photo, work from it.
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:iconshillermetimbers:
shillermetimbers Featured By Owner Jan 6, 2013
[link] Any better?

Whilst I do agree that that last one was pretty terrible in regards to the girl's anatomy, I'm not going for a 3D effect; whilst I want the proportions to be right, I also wanted to keep in with a 2D, old school Disney cartoon feel.
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:iconself-epidemic:
Self-Epidemic Featured By Owner Jan 6, 2013  Professional Digital Artist
Much better, her boobs are still not booby shaped, the heads are still a little too big, too. I would give you a red line but I'm not at home D:
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:iconshillermetimbers:
shillermetimbers Featured By Owner Jan 7, 2013
Naw don't worry about the red line, I'd rather work through words of advice :) The big heads are intentional because I'm going for more of an exaggerated, slightly cartoon style ; rather than making everything have realistic proportions, I'll accentuate it more with larger eyes, thinner wrists etc. Like Ariel from The Little Mermaid here [link] - not wholly realistic anatomy with head proportions, but still looks incredible :)
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:iconself-epidemic:
Self-Epidemic Featured By Owner Jan 9, 2013  Professional Digital Artist
Well you're making excuses for where there is a weak anatomy, it should still make sense. Also the heads are MASSIVE, not a little distorted like Disney. I've done cartoon and anime artwork. I understand, but they're far too big.
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:iconshillermetimbers:
shillermetimbers Featured By Owner Jan 9, 2013
Not so much making excuses, more clarifying my aim- I wouldn't skimp on a drawing just for the sake of less work. Trust me on that, if I was like that then I wouldn't made so many changes since asking critique.

Fair enough if you've done work like that, I thought you were looking at it from a realistic rather than cartoon perspective which is why I was hesitant. I'll make them a little smaller, but I want to still keep them a larger than average to highlight the cartoon-ness of it.
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:iconwindhydra:
WindHydra Featured By Owner Jan 6, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Is the girl intended to be shorter? In the original drawing I got the impression that she's bigger and kind of like protecting the other person. In the new drawing the girl looks too stiff. Also you are moving away from Disney style.
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:iconshillermetimbers:
shillermetimbers Featured By Owner Jan 6, 2013
Yeah, I meant for her to be shorter but made the boy bigger because I felt she looked to tall.
I do see the stiffness- it's in her back mostly, so I might give her a slight lean forwards and have more of a bend at the arms.
I think I know what you mean- if I enlarge the eyes and shrink features such as the waist, ankles and wrists, do you think that could help?
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:iconwindhydra:
WindHydra Featured By Owner Jan 6, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Aww I like the original setup better.
In addition to slight lean, remember to relax the shoulders.
I think it's more about the body proportions. Try making the torso about the size of the head (or 1.5x the size) and make legs half of body height.
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:iconshillermetimbers:
shillermetimbers Featured By Owner Jan 6, 2013
I know, it's a sweet and pretty unique thought but unfortunately he's just a little taller than her :P
Okay, I'll keep all of that in mind. Thank you so much! :) Shorter torso, and I reckon I'll make her eye a bit more open because it looks like she's falling asleep slightly LOL.
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:iconfluffpuffgerbil:
fluffpuffgerbil Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
The girl's the worst of the two anatomy wise. Heads on both are too big, boy's feet are too small, girl's feet are too small, leg is oddly shaped on her, her torso doesn't anatomically correct at all either.
Also, on the girl's head, I believe her ear is too far back and needs to be forward more.
Boy's torso and shoulder are fine, legs could use a bit more curve to the thigh, but not much, and how both their legs are interacting/positioned around each other doesn't make much sense either... For one thing, the boy's feet are higher up than the girls legs as far as the ground goes, making it look like the boy's feet are floating or the ground is oddly lopsided
.

Curious--- do you draw the body and the entire necessary anatomy BEFORE drawing the clothes on the people? If not, I would recommend it. You can't really draw proper clothes without knowing how the human body moves.

I do think restarting would be easiest, but do whatever you think is best. I just think there's too much anatomically incorrect that it needs to be completely redrawn... Now, seeing that you posted over 40 minutes ago you were working on resizing things, I'm quite curious at to how much progress you've made since everyone else's suggestions. =)

I might have been a bit too blunt with the critique, if I was, sorry.
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:iconshillermetimbers:
shillermetimbers Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013
I don't think you were blunt at all! Detailed critique is the best kind, and I appreciate it lots.

The boy's torso and shoulder were my biggest worry, so I'm glad they're alright. I agree with you on how the legs are interacting- I like how he looks, so mostly I'll be changing her posture, maybe to sitting cross legged for variation.
Thanks for all your suggestions! Really helpful, especially little details like the ear and foot :) I'm making adjustments now, I'll upload a picture when the amended sketch is done.

Yeah, I do body sketch first or it all ends up looking a total mess. I'll admit drawing clothes isn't my strong point, though.
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:iconfluffpuffgerbil:
fluffpuffgerbil Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Ah, glad you appreciated it. xD I've never actually really gave a critique, just slight suggestions here and there.

Yeah, the boy looked pretty nice as far as his anatomy went... which I completely understand, because awhile ago, I could only draw boys/men!! My girls looked terrible. XD LOL!

A cross-legged position could look nice. =)

I'd love to see the progress when you're finished. Oh, and the expressions are really well drawn on your two people.

And I agree, I have to do a body sketch first or it's awful. :O_o: Drawing clothes is hard, I definitely relate with that

Good luck!
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:iconshillermetimbers:
shillermetimbers Featured By Owner Jan 6, 2013
[link] Edited version here :)
Aw, thank you so much! I've been trying to broaden my range with expressions, so I'm glad they're effective.
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:iconfluffpuffgerbil:
fluffpuffgerbil Featured By Owner Jan 6, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Hmm.... the boy's anatomy is much better, but the girl's still doesn't look right.... I think it's still her torso, and her legs look rather short and chubby still, which compared to the rest of her, shouldn't look like that
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:iconshillermetimbers:
shillermetimbers Featured By Owner Jan 6, 2013
Yeah, looking back that one's a mess tbh haha- how about this one? [link]
Thanks for all your help, btw :)
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:iconfluffpuffgerbil:
fluffpuffgerbil Featured By Owner Jan 6, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
MUCH better!!! Like, a thousand times better! xD

And no problem!
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:iconshillermetimbers:
shillermetimbers Featured By Owner Jan 7, 2013
Thank you! <3 I'm gonna open her eye a bit and relax her posture, and then I'll be about done with the basic sketch.
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(1 Reply)
:iconshininginthedarkness:
shininginthedarkness Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013
Well.. I mean... the heads aren't too big if they're supposed to be seven years old. But even then the feet aren't proportional.
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:iconshillermetimbers:
shillermetimbers Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013
I'm enlarging the bodies now, I defo agree the heads are too big haha. I'm making the feet and ankles on the girl bigger too :)
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:iconself-epidemic:
Self-Epidemic Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013  Professional Digital Artist
Restart, the anatomy makes no sense, heads far too big, bodies are far too tiny, its the whole lollypop syndrome. Basically, it makes no sense. Go look up references, or get your friends to pose similarly.
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:iconshillermetimbers:
shillermetimbers Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013
Good idea, thanks a lot :) I probably won't restart because I can resize and reshape parts in SAI, but I'll definitely take note and get people to pose/ make the bodies big enough to fit the heads.
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:iconself-epidemic:
Self-Epidemic Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013  Professional Digital Artist
No you need to restart, not because the head is bigger, but because anatomically it makes no sense. This is something a quick fix will not improve.
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:iconshillermetimbers:
shillermetimbers Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013
Oooh I get you, lucky I asked before I started to lineart it all. Is there anything specifically about the anatomy that looks weird, such as shoulders, hands etc?
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:iconphanthom-art:
PhanThom-art Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Might be me but the proportions of the girl's head and her body seem a bit off and her leg and foot look weird, otherwise I can't see any major flaws.
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:iconshillermetimbers:
shillermetimbers Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013
Aah, how so with the head/body? Yeah now you mention it I think her foot's a bit too small and I've made her calf too big, cheers :)
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:iconphanthom-art:
PhanThom-art Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Not sure, it's probably nothing. The shape of the foot also looks a bit weird and it's not the calf that's too big but her ankle's too small
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:iconshillermetimbers:
shillermetimbers Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013
Alright I'll get around to fixing that, thanks a lot :)
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